Let's discuss the skill gap in Elite Dangerous between players

[CMDR Sir Edison Trent]

Op should work for the government, the original AI poll ended up with more % in too hard than in just right and too easy combined, so not sure where the three thirds came from?

I voted just right, as long as I don't pick on a high skilled wing I can pilot my way out of it, if I try to take on a master or above and make a single error I can land myself in trouble which is how it should be in my eyes.

Still not lost a ship yet since the update although I've had some close calls at 10% hull.

 

[Lee Ti]

I think this is because they simply don't know. They don't have enough a grasp on the game to understand what they have in their ship, what it does and how it interacts with whatever the game throws against them. They just don't understand these mechanics and think survival in this game is just an innate part of moving the ship with your intuition.

I seriously think a lot of the complainers are not aware of the fact that most people answering them couldn't survive the situation they lost their ships to, within the same exact loadouts. They think a truly competent pilot would magically be able to fly the trade conda equipped with weak shields and no weapons in such a way that will let them kill that elite imp. courier with railguns. The reality is, the competent player wouldn't be in the same situation to begin with. They would fit appropriate shields as a first step and know to put four pips to systems before disengaging to jump to another system.

What we call skill gap is nothing more than a gap in general game understanding, which is far from an innate ability but something you can learn and teach others. You have to learn in fact, from somewhere. It won't come to you on its own the more you practice. You will just be frustrated and unhappy.

Cynaqq, in another thread you where saying that you wanted to put something together for newbies to explain the "art" of flying an ED ship.

I know this is going to give me abuse, and well deserved, I have been playing ED for a reasonable time, I have no real interest in combat and spend my time trading, exploration and mining. until 2.1 you could "fly" around and manage most NPC's by treating your ship as an aircraft, using just thrusters, to assist turning you could "hold your own" against most NPC's, the only difficult NPC's where the ones that mass locked you. Even in a low res, high res on CZ you can pick your target, get in a good combat position before you open fire and if your not too greedy you would survive. I agree this is totally wrong. But my point is that there was no real need to be good at combat because NPC's where too easy. The only difficulty was with intradictions as getting in an attack position was sometimes difficult. With 2.1 and the more "intelligent" NPC's this is no longer possible (thankfully). I have parked up my Python, brought a cheaper ship and have started to learn how to fly, something I should have done a long time ago. What I think FD should look at is improving the new pilot "manuals" and explaining to newbies the "art" of space flight. I know every man and his dog have posted on utube and most are really useful but something to replace the current pilot training with a structured approach to ship build, use of thrusters, and FAO I think is necessary. ED has always been here's your ship you have a grand, find your own way. But a new Pilots school to teach flying?

 

[bkrownd]

And more power to you for enjoying those aspects of the game.

I think that the issue many pilots such as yourself are now experiencing is that while it's all well and good to enjoy experiencing nature in all its glory by wandering the Okavango, one should always be aware and mentally equipped for the possibility of crocodiles. It is not a 'safe' galaxy, and the recent patch has brought that home.

That is why the boost button exists. Boost-boost-boost-boost-boost ad inf. all day long. ;D

 

[crushdepth]

Knowing when to run away and having a suitably equipped ship for doing so are also skills. Just sayin'

 

[wagfeliz]

Why don't we just admit that ED is for extremely skilled fighter pilots. Everyone else is looking for a game that is fun to play. The decisions and desire to make things challenging are only creating a repulsive vibe that will drive the majority of less skilled players towards games they will find enjoyable to play, namely "No Man's Sky". Let's wait and see how many people pay up for season three when there is something more FUN to play. You are wasting your time falsely believing that you can teach others how to be better fighter pilots. The part you are missing is that only .01% of the player base have the natural skills to play at your level. Natural born skills are not teachable. You either have them or you don't. The elites playing this game don't seem to get this and are driving this game into obscurity.

Because its not, any idiot that had done a lot of griding will get an OP ship with OP modules that can kill any Npc in seconds, it was stated in the beta, and I can see it now that I had moded my combat ship. The problem with this game is "game progression", it has none, this is why skilled players will think its easy and noob players will think its hard, basically the game mechanics is all broken.

 

[Cynaqq]

Cynaqq, in another thread you where saying that you wanted to put something together for newbies to explain the "art" of flying an ED ship.

I know this is going to give me abuse, and well deserved, I have been playing ED for a reasonable time, I have no real interest in combat and spend my time trading, exploration and mining. until 2.1 you could "fly" around and manage most NPC's by treating your ship as an aircraft, using just thrusters, to assist turning you could "hold your own" against most NPC's, the only difficult NPC's where the ones that mass locked you. Even in a low res, high res on CZ you can pick your target, get in a good combat position before you open fire and if your not too greedy you would survive. I agree this is totally wrong. But my point is that there was no real need to be good at combat because NPC's where too easy. The only difficulty was with intradictions as getting in an attack position was sometimes difficult. With 2.1 and the more "intelligent" NPC's this is no longer possible (thankfully). I have parked up my Python, brought a cheaper ship and have started to learn how to fly, something I should have done a long time ago. What I think FD should look at is improving the new pilot "manuals" and explaining to newbies the "art" of space flight. I know every man and his dog have posted on utube and most are really useful but something to replace the current pilot training with a structured approach to ship build, use of thrusters, and FAO I think is necessary. ED has always been here's your ship you have a grand, find your own way. But a new Pilots school to teach flying?

I don't remember saying 'I' wanted to put together an art of flying manual, I'm no where that good. I can manage on my own in a HazRES for a while until I make a bad choice and bite more than I chew but mine is strategy more than flying exceptionally well. I was talking about exactly what you say. There should be more and obvious reference manuals, both in writing and video form, teaching the systems at play when in an encounter.

I believe more than actual flying skill, in other words, ship control, what should be emphasized is the information about game mechanics such as the difference between high waking and low waking, pip management with actual numbers telling you how it affects your speed, turn rate, shield strength etc.

There are many very valuable videos and instruction manuals put together by the community all around the internet. FD should one way or the other, at least encourage people to watch and learn from others instead of trial and error. There are a lot of cases where it's impossible to know what you are doing unless someone tells you. This has to end. There has to be better and accessible information to help players understand what they are doing at any time.

To return to the quote you posted, I don't think what separates a player from a better one is innate or learned ability to control the ship better but an overall understanding of game and flight mechanics. Muscle memory and the speed with which you can execute actions comes a lot later in the grand scheme of things. It may differentiate between two top of the top pilots like Isinona and Cilit Bang but for the rest, knowledge is key.

 

[Comrade Napoleon]

The skill gap is massive because Fd through allowing easy mode (solo) with low skill Ai opponents and a vast amount of players played it that way and wer enot challenged for many months and allowing this easy swappping of modes created this players that wanted to play safe and really safe were allowed to do so many of us predicted this backlash against computer opponents months ago lock solo and lock open only being able to change with a clear save will IMHO make players play better or at least think while they play

I must say comments like jar me. I cannot fathom why one player would worry about other peoples playstyle. Each and every Cmdr who bought this game bought it to have fun and relax I suppose as I have not asked all. So let Cmdr's have fun the way they do, and if they post a complaint maybe they DO have a problem.
I do not partake in PVP, but i dont mind others do.
It does not bother me that other Cmdr's are better pilots than me. Cool , then I can enjoy their youtubes.

The game as such is perfectly suited for catering for different skill levels AND professions. It has only been implemented in a badly thought out manner.

Doing what you propose by locking modes, will kill open , you do realize that, and the few targets you find will combat ships.

Cheers Cmdr's

 

[AlPilg]

I posted last week that there should be relatively! safe areas for the more inexperienced players and someone suggested that having a safe bubble around Sol would be a good idea. So new players could trade there and get some light combat under their belt until they were confident to venture out further.

I really think this is a no brainer and would stop the endless debates about this facet of the game as you're never going to please everyone by having a universal skill/danger level of npcs.

 

[Becks]

The skill gap is massive because Fd through allowing easy mode (solo) with low skill Ai opponents and a vast amount of players played it that way and wer enot challenged for many months and allowing this easy swappping of modes created this players that wanted to play safe and really safe were allowed to do so many of us predicted this backlash against computer opponents months ago lock solo and lock open only being able to change with a clear save will IMHO make players play better or at least think while they play

Believe it or not, but Open only would kill this game.

Also I don't like it at all when people think they can decide how I should play. If I play in Open, in Group or in Solo is MY Business. Not yours.

 

[fransoos]

I must say comments like jar me. I cannot fathom why one player would worry about other peoples playstyle. Each and every Cmdr who bought this game bought it to have fun and relax I suppose as I have not asked all. So let Cmdr's have fun the way they do, and if they post a complaint maybe they DO have a problem.
I do not partake in PVP, but i dont mind others do.
It does not bother me that other Cmdr's are better pilots than me. Cool , then I can enjoy their youtubes.

The game as such is perfectly suited for catering for different skill levels AND professions. It has only been implemented in a badly thought out manner.

Doing what you propose by locking modes, will kill open , you do realize that, and the few targets you find will combat ships.

Cheers Cmdr's

+ 1
I agree, let everybody play the game they want to play, the way they want to and have fun, it is a game after all.
FD is a game developer and have to implemented this one way or the other.


I take everybody's complaints seriously; this isn't about weening, it's about having a good time in gaming.
It seems we have all different experiences within the game; let's respect this.

I do love Elite Dangerous allot and would see it alive and kicking in the future.

fly save cmdrs

 

[micky1984]

Believe it or not, but Open only would kill this game.

Also I don't like it at all when people think they can decide how I should play. If I play in Open, in Group or in Solo is MY Business. Not yours.

yes it is your buisness and it all the other yappers buisness complaining that they are getting killed by the new AI on the forums makes it everyones buisness the ease of mode change made it easy to play the game without learning how to deal with human players and easy AI compounded the problem they are major factors in why we have so many complaints from players that learned nothing about combat or the game

 

[Becks]

yes it is your buisness and it all the other yappers buisness complaining that they are getting killed by the new AI on the forums makes it everyones buisness the ease of mode change made it easy to play the game without learning how to deal with human players and easy AI compounded the problem they are major factors in why we have so many complaints from players that learned nothing about combat or the game

The people complaining on the Forums are simply not used to the new AI. There are also bugs and a few unbalanced specs of the AI which made it appear way harder than it actually is.

The modes have nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with that. Also human players and AI still behave completely different, so your argument about human players is completely irrelevant. Also Combat is not the only way to play the game, so claiming everyone who complains about the new AI has "learned nothing about Combat or the game" is , too.

Which mode I play in is still my business and not yours.

 

[Robert Maynard]

yes it is your buisness and it all the other yappers buisness complaining that they are getting killed by the new AI on the forums makes it everyones buisness the ease of mode change made it easy to play the game without learning how to deal with human players and easy AI compounded the problem they are major factors in why we have so many complaints from players that learned nothing about combat or the game

.... which falls squarely back on Frontier for introducing such a step change in AI capability, aggro, encountered rank distribution and NPC ship loadout - all at the same time.

The game requires to be played single player and a significant proportion of players in all modes would seem to have experienced a significant hike in NPC difficulty post 2.1 - I expect that Frontier are observing the effects of the changes using their in-game analytics and will take any action they deem necessary.

 

[Siranui]

yes it is your buisness and it all the other yappers buisness complaining that they are getting killed by the new AI on the forums makes it everyones buisness the ease of mode change made it easy to play the game without learning how to deal with human players and easy AI compounded the problem they are major factors in why we have so many complaints from players that learned nothing about combat or the game

No, the Open/Closed nature of the game was not the issue. Forcing players to 'deal' with other PCs would have just driven players away, not significantly booted skill levels. Players who like Solo would not have switched to Open and rushed to interact with PvPers, improving their skills.

The issues are that the AI was too easy, and people got used to it; it's only natural that people would complain when it got harder. This is the main problem and it was compounded by a few factors:

The low difficulty artificially accelerated everyone's Ratings, often outstripping their skill. As the difficulty of our foes being matched to our rating, we are matched against foe which are supposedly better matched to our often artificially inflated skill levels.

The vessels are supposed to be alternatives, rather than a strict progression. This is not a game about the 'next' ship being 'just better', but rather them being generally better. Many players are used to a more linear progression in upgrades where a more progressed piece of kit is 'just better'. Elite doesn't do that, though the poor AI obfuscated the problem (making it appear that bigger was indeed always better) and many players have been very frustrated to discover that that the game's paradigm does not match their own. They have reached the 'end game' without their perceptions being shaken because up until now the more expensive ships have generally been jut flat-out better. Now the AI isn't an idiot, they have had their perceptions shattered.

The big stick approach to the game is expensive. Not only are larger vessels more expensive to buy, they are riskier, due to rebuy cost. Faced with a better AI and more tenable smaller ships, many commanders assuming the 'bigger is better' paradigm was still in force and that any difficulty hike would be matched by their perceived ship superiority, relied on that, and then were upset when the strategy failed... so they tried again... and again, compounding losses and becoming increasingly frustrated. Others recognised the real shift in performance had to come from themselves and switched to smaller, cheaper ships, avoiding higher loss levels.


The thing is that these things will normalise. We will get used to it. New players will enter the game and will increase in combat rank (hence foe difficulty) at a more 'proper' rate which matches their skill increase. They will mature as players in an environment where all size vessels have a place as options and will not be as frustrated when Big Ship gets beaten by Small Ship.

 

[Deadspin]

I just put the yellow things on the wedge shaped things and hold the trigger down until the scary wedge goes away.

 

[Beans]

one third is happy with, one third thinks it is too frustrating and difficult and the last third still thinks it is too easy

Do you have any evidence of these proportions? IMHO the happy people are in the majority, under-represented because most of them don't feel the need to whinge/argue on the forums and elsewhere.

I think that the new AI was implemented because FDev were concerned, they have created AI which has more range and variety, slightly dumber at the bottom end and vastly superior towards the top, to ensure new starters and veterans are catered for. Unfortunately those who don't deserve their rank have drawn the short straw, their "Conda al Robigo" is no longer viable because they are now facing AI which fights back and spawns according to the skill expected for that rank. I can't really say I'm that upset.

 

[micky1984]

No, the Open/Closed nature of the game was not the issue. Forcing players to 'deal' with other PCs would have just driven players away, not significantly booted skill levels. Players who like Solo would not have switched to Open and rushed to interact with PvPers, improving their skills.

The issues are that the AI was too easy, and people got used to it; it's only natural that people would complain when it got harder. This is the main problem and it was compounded by a few factors:

The low difficulty artificially accelerated everyone's Ratings, often outstripping their skill. As the difficulty of our foes being matched to our rating, we are matched against foe which are supposedly better matched to our often artificially inflated skill levels.

The vessels are supposed to be alternatives, rather than a strict progression. This is not a game about the 'next' ship being 'just better', but rather them being generally better. Many players are used to a more linear progression in upgrades where a more progressed piece of kit is 'just better'. Elite doesn't do that, though the poor AI obfuscated the problem (making it appear that bigger was indeed always better) and many players have been very frustrated to discover that that the game's paradigm does not match their own. They have reached the 'end game' without their perceptions being shaken because up until now the more expensive ships have generally been jut flat-out better. Now the AI isn't an idiot, they have had their perceptions shattered.

The big stick approach to the game is expensive. Not only are larger vessels more expensive to buy, they are riskier, due to rebuy cost. Faced with a better AI and more tenable smaller ships, many commanders assuming the 'bigger is better' paradigm was still in force and that any difficulty hike would be matched by their perceived ship superiority, relied on that, and then were upset when the strategy failed... so they tried again... and again, compounding losses and becoming increasingly frustrated. Others recognised the real shift in performance had to come from themselves and switched to smaller, cheaper ships, avoiding higher loss levels.


The thing is that these things will normalise. We will get used to it. New players will enter the game and will increase in combat rank (hence foe difficulty) at a more 'proper' rate which matches their skill increase. They will mature as players in an environment where all size vessels have a place as options and will not be as frustrated when Big Ship gets beaten by Small Ship.

you to biased to see how that made a safe place easy to get to and many players sat there and learned nothing thats just a plain factor why so many players played easy

 

[matemaster]

IMO the skill gap between players is very small because there is nothing difficult nor complex while flying ship in ED.

I will elaborate:

I played world of warplanes for 2 years before ED. It was a quasi dogfight PVP WW2 arcadeish "simulator". Even it was far from simulator the number of variables you needed to watch during dogfight was much greater than in ED:
- only fixed weapons ofc
- top speed at certain altitude
- acceleration at certain altitude
- rate of climb
- terrain
- max ceiling
- maneuverability at certain speed/altitude
- altitude

ED is in space that makes it way easier vs atmospheric combat so in space:
- altitude N/A
- max ceiling N/A
- rate of climb N/A
- terrain N/A

Whats in ED but its non issue in regards of skill:
- top speed (this in space really ? bad implementation)
- acceleration non issue just press boost
- max maneuverability, just keep thrusters in the middle of blue zone
- gimballed, turreted weapons auto targets
- counter for gimballed turreted weapons, chaff
- raming with other ships (no immediate destruction)

Whats left that could create skill gap:
- efficient using of FA OFF
- pip management

 

[Windscreen Smudge]

Nope. Games with higher skill caps have longer shelf lives.

Bring on capital ships that can't be beaten by solo players. The game will thrive.

 

[matemaster]

To be honest I do not feel that the A-rated Python player who struggles against an AI Viper should get rewarded the same way as an experienced player who is able to destroy Elite AI Pythons in a Viper.

Logic in that is completly flawed since 2.1 droped. This was true before 2.1

Those are the players that think the skill gap between players is huge
Using this "viper vs python" argument
"Look, git good, I am killing those ELITE pythons in my viper...AI is crap"

I would suggest to those players the opposite take your python against ELITE viper and then come back

I dont say the AI is crap when I took my vulture for test to compromised nav beacon and kicked ELITE anaconda's without me hardly taking any significant damage.