Disproportionate response by security.

[Mohrgan]

There are distinct rules governing the authority response. If you breach them the penalty is, to me, pretty reasonable. In the end ,it amounts to some few minutes in a time out. You have to leave the area/system as fast as you are able, have your time-out, and then you may return with no more trouble. When your session is complete, pay your fine(s) when you pick up your local bounties.

I don't see that as disproportionate at all.

 

[Tulandros]

OP is pretending to be reasonable, but is really insisting that there should be *no* repercussions for hitting a security ship with a missile, because it's an "accident". There's already a pretty decent system in place to handle this, and if you really think it through its more than fair. If you are in a live-fire situation and you have an "oopsie" with your missile launcher, you are slapped with a *small* bounty which only lasts for a short amount of time before turning into a minor fine. The effect here is that the bounty is your cue to Get The F Out of there because as far as the authorities are concerned you are not welcome, and are more of a liability than an asset.

The fiction of Elite is essentially a libertarian dystopia scenario where every profession has been largely reduced to being an Uber driver, and even entire *wars* are outsourced. Imagine if there were an UBER for law enforcement- that's basically the Pilot's Federation. Now imagine that the NYPD is severely understaffed and underfunded, and they are forced to work alongside any random yahoo who shows up at the scene of a crime to "help" - that's basically us.

Imagine that an UBER-cop drives his hot pink camero to the scene of a crime, squealing his tires as he comes to a stop in the bus lane, side swiping a park bench in the process, while the NYPD are midway through apprehending a wanted criminal. He hops out of his car, climbs onto the hood, and yells "I got this!" as he pulls out a pair of gold-plated Glock-19 pistols from twin shoulder holsters, before opening fire in the general direction of the criminal, over the heads of the cops. Stray bullets shatter the rear windshield of one of the cop cars, and another officer has his hat shot off.

"Oops, sorry!" He shouts, "no harm no foul, right?" barely audible over the staccato of his pistols, which he is *still firing*.

Now imagine that this kind of thing happens *all the time*. Now imagine that in addition to incompetent and overzealous Amateurs periodically showing up, you also occasionally have to contend with dedicated assassins who show up *specifically to kill cops*. And the assassins are also "crowdsourced" and paid by the same company as the rent-a-cops.

Being violently chased from the scene of the crime and given a 15 minute "time out" is more than fair.

Never said there should be no repercussions, nor did I have itchy trigger finger. I would also point out that I was first on the scene and the cops joined me in the fire fight so your scenario doesn't really work out.

 

[Eloy]

The system as it is now is the result of ENDLESS discussions between the community and FD. That's one of the reasons why it's so complicated. But I dare to say: it works.
But I remember that a single shot shouldn't get you a ticket.(?)

 

[Bacalao]

So what do you consider a more proportional response? Maybe they should keep you in jail overnight, or suspend your pilot licence for six weeks? Those would be perfectly reasonable responses in real life, but in a game they're actually a lot more punitive than getting your ship blown up.

If you want something done, don't just identify the problem - identify the solution.

We've been suggesting changes for ages. Some are quite good, let me briefly outline one possibility below.
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Maybe a 3 strike rule? 3 such "assaults" within a rolling 5 or 10 minute period switches the "friendly fire" fines to a bounty and justice is swiftly distributed. If you target a ship and shoot it, it automatically goes to a bounty. The same 3 strike rule could be applied to collision damage which would quite effectively reduce the potency of consequence free ramming (jerk player repeatedly rams another player to weaken his shields and hull without suffering any ill consequence, either allowing NPCs to finish the player off or forcing him to leave).
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The disproportionate response to accidental friendly fire makes it very difficult to use slower projectiles like cannons, PAs, missiles and torpedos reasonably in a RES or CZ because if they miss or an "ally" intercepts them, you're screwed.
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I love the terrible analogies....shoot a cop car indeed...

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The system as it is now is the result of ENDLESS discussions between the community and FD. That's one of the reasons why it's so complicated. But I dare to say: it works.
But I remember that a single shot shouldn't get you a ticket.(?)

Very much depends on the shot, miss a few MC rounds of pulse laser blasts and you're fine. Miss a C4 PAC shot or someone flies in front of 4 beam lasers for less than a second and you're dead meat.
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I suppose if "endless discussions" means, lots of complaints about former systems exploitability and a half baked, knee jerk "fix" to prevent it from continuing. What we have now is a stop-gap measure.

 

[Bacalao]

OP is pretending to be reasonable, but is really insisting that there should be *no* repercussions for hitting a security ship with a missile, because it's an "accident". There's already a pretty decent system in place to handle this, and if you really think it through its more than fair. If you are in a live-fire situation and you have an "oopsie" with your missile launcher, you are slapped with a *small* bounty which only lasts for a short amount of time before turning into a minor fine. The effect here is that the bounty is your cue to Get The F Out of there because as far as the authorities are concerned you are not welcome, and are more of a liability than an asset.

The fiction of Elite is essentially a libertarian dystopia scenario where every profession has been largely reduced to being an Uber driver, and even entire *wars* are outsourced. Imagine if there were an UBER for law enforcement- that's basically the Pilot's Federation. Now imagine that the NYPD is severely understaffed and underfunded, and they are forced to work alongside any random yahoo who shows up at the scene of a crime to "help" - that's basically us.

Imagine that an UBER-cop drives his hot pink camero to the scene of a crime, squealing his tires as he comes to a stop in the bus lane, side swiping a park bench in the process, while the NYPD are midway through apprehending a wanted criminal. He hops out of his car, climbs onto the hood, and yells "I got this!" as he pulls out a pair of gold-plated Glock-19 pistols from twin shoulder holsters, before opening fire in the general direction of the criminal, over the heads of the cops. Stray bullets shatter the rear windshield of one of the cop cars, and another officer has his hat shot off.

"Oops, sorry!" He shouts, "no harm no foul, right?" barely audible over the staccato of his pistols, which he is *still firing*.

Now imagine that this kind of thing happens *all the time*. Now imagine that in addition to incompetent and overzealous Amateurs periodically showing up, you also occasionally have to contend with dedicated assassins who show up *specifically to kill cops*. And the assassins are also "crowdsourced" and paid by the same company as the rent-a-cops.

Being violently chased from the scene of the crime and given a 15 minute "time out" is more than fair.

One big issue is that you are preferentially "violently chased from the scene of the crime" for an inadvertent friendly fire over criminals using consistent and concentrated lethal force against the same police you accidentally hit that have repeatedly struck you with friendly fire.
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The cops can shoot me all they want, as soon as every criminal with a bounty bigger or less recent than mine is off the scanners. That would be reasonable, as well as sensible and intuitive and a better overall gameplay mechanic.

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There are distinct rules governing the authority response. If you breach them the penalty is, to me, pretty reasonable. In the end ,it amounts to some few minutes in a time out. You have to leave the area/system as fast as you are able, have your time-out, and then you may return with no more trouble. When your session is complete, pay your fine(s) when you pick up your local bounties.

I don't see that as disproportionate at all.

Sounds great, if the bounty showed up and you were told to stow hardpoints and vacate the area within 2 minutes or lethal force would be applied. Instead you shoot your C4 PAC, from below the pirates FOV, he rolls to avoid it...uncanny....and some cop on the other side swoops in to take it on the chin, every cop (sometimes up to a dozen) then stops shooting the criminal who has killed dozens of innocents judging from his 200-300k bounty and turn to melt you before you can even hit boost.

 

[Tulandros]

Sounds great, if the bounty showed up and you were told to stow hardpoints and vacate the area within 2 minutes or lethal force would be applied. Instead you shoot your C4 PAC, from below the pirates FOV, he rolls to avoid it...uncanny....and some cop on the other side swoops in to take it on the chin, every cop (sometimes up to a dozen) then stops shooting the criminal who has killed dozens of innocents judging from his 200-300k bounty and turn to melt you before you can even hit boost.

This, this is essentially my point. I don't understand why this is the clearly understood and preferred game play mechanic.

 

[Pumabear8]

I've found other reports of this happening here.https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/4bfooc/the_npc_security_response_to_accidental_200/

I'm in agreement with you, the response is disproportionate, a wanted is an instant death penalty judgement, so I get a bounty on my head of 400cr for scraping shields by accident, they then go all out to destroy me and my ship, for 400cr, here, I'll give you the 400cr!


Anyway, as pointed out, this discussion already happened, and some think for odd reasons that an instant death penalty is warranted, I truly hope non of them are rl judges.

 

[FredTA]

Yeah, I too think this is an issue. Had a poll going for a few days now, some interesting discussion, here it is: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...ge=5&highlight=attacking+before+scan+complete

 

[CptXabaras]

Once I've got a bounty because one unshielded (fresh from battle) and damaged federal security cop viper mkIII crashed, destroying himself in the process, over my stationary battle conda... I was just looking at the contact panel with weapons stowed... Is that fair?

 

[Pumabear8]

The system as it is now is the result of ENDLESS discussions between the community and FD. That's one of the reasons why it's so complicated. But I dare to say: it works.
But I remember that a single shot shouldn't get you a ticket.(?)

Shoot target by accident, get wanted, instant death penalty, I'm sorry, complicated?

 

[DaggerSnake]

It's happened to me too. I know the game. I know the rules. I knew there were cops shooting at the same target. I made the wrong descision in a split second. I own the cost and am better for it.

 

[Sandro Sammarco]

Hello Commanders!

For clarity: there is an amount of "friendly fire" damage that you can deal without triggering a crime, but I'm afraid a single missile deals more than this amount; "blob" damage is what missiles are all about. Getting hit by a missile is not like getting clipped by a couple of multi-cannon rounds.

 

[shadragon]

OP - It's your finger on the fire button and you are responsible for what your rounds hit.

I've had to run from numerous RES because of this. I don't like it, but I was responsible for it.

 

[Pumabear8]

OP - It's your finger on the fire button and you are responsible for what your rounds hit.

I've had to run from numerous RES because of this. I don't like it, but I was responsible for it.

He's not responsible for a ship flying in the path of the missile, he had a clear shot, it's the AI ship that screwed up.

 

[wolferr]

Turrets are my friends right now. Set it to fire at will no more fines.

Is this true? Turrets never accidentally shoot Federales?

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So what do you consider a more proportional response? Maybe they should keep you in jail overnight, or suspend your pilot licence for six weeks? Those would be perfectly reasonable responses in real life, but in a game they're actually a lot more punitive than getting your ship blown up.

If you want something done, don't just identify the problem - identify the solution.

Solution: Three strikes and you're bantha fodder.

 

[Sashenka]

Is this true? Turrets never accidentally shoot Federales?

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Solution: Three strikes and your bantha fodder.

They do but they don't trigger a crime anymore I think.

 

[Tulandros]

Hello Commanders!

For clarity: there is an amount of "friendly fire" damage that you can deal without triggering a crime, but I'm afraid a single missile deals more than this amount; "blob" damage is what missiles are all about. Getting hit by a missile is not like getting clipped by a couple of multi-cannon rounds.

First Things first I want to thanks you and your team for this game I love so much and coming and answering my issue directly (Praise the Space Loach).

I get the Blob damage but as it hit only the shield I didn't think it would have done that much. There is still the issue that the NPC flew into the path of a missile about to strike its intended target. If the damage is working as intended and atm I have no issues with that would anything long term be able to be done about the way crimes are handled in such ways as have been suggested in the reddit thread or in the others on said topic? I just feel that the system is still lacking the depth it could have. I'm not asking for any immediate fixes or changes but its an issue for some, possibly a minority.

 

[srfrogg23]

Shoot a police car in real life and see what the response is?

Walk up next to a cop, dressed as a civilian, and just start shooting your gun during a shootout in real life and see what the response is. I bet the cop would be "totally cool" with that...

 

[Comrade Napoleon]

I once dropped a cigarette butt on a Fed station
I am in a Sidewinder now, I know my ways now



Cheers Cmdr's

 

[Tulandros]

Walk up next to a cop and open fire during a shootout in real life and see what the response is.

These examples don't work for elite, we are bounty hunters, possibly depending on how often we hunt in the system "known" to the pilots and organisations, they expect people to be in these zones shooting at the bad guys.
If your examples worked then we would not bounty hunt in security systems at all.