'Attack of the AI' III

[Queex]

I've finally had a chance to get into a few fights after long-distance footling about to open up engineers.

It's harder. Not too hard, at least for the ship I'm flying, but the frequency of NPCs you just plain run from seems a little heavy (aside from the probable issues with NPc generation that we're probably not going to hear any more details about until FD find what's going awry and fix it).

Unfortunately, the fights are more boring, for all the reasons other people have outlined. 'Better' in this context, seems to mean that they are very predictable. Effective, but predictable. Give me NPCs that do something a little different, even if they're technically 'too easy', any day. For pilots who were bored pre-2.1, the underlying problem was never difficulty per se - it was a lack of player engagement due to limited AI behaviour and the rote quality that fighting took on. Now, alas, fighting is even more by rote.

 

[Ziljan]

Nope, you're missing another alternative - has it occurred to you that the numerical discrepancy may be because people have left the game because of the "difficulty"?

Use your logic. If people are leaving because it's too hard you'd expect to see the a dwindling voter base skewing towards too easy, not towards too hard. "Easy" voters wouldn't stop playing because it's too hard, lol. Logic man, logic. Ergo, the dwindling number of people concerned with the issue indicates more people are happy since 2.1.02.

I am not one of the happy ones though. I think it's way too easy now, and the only difficulty is in finding a worthy opponent since they gutted the AI spawns.

Last night I was roaming around in a shieldless Asp in low sec, running stacked cargo missions for 3 hours. Was interdicted 2 times. Lost 12% hull once because I was busy texting the punchline of a joke. If the game got any easier, I'd have to look for another game.

 

[yodajedifishmaster]

Use your logic. If people are leaving because it's too hard you'd expect to see the a dwindling voter base skewing towards too easy, not towards too hard. "Easy" voters wouldn't stop playing because it's too hard, lol. Logic man, logic. Ergo, the dwindling number of people concerned with the issue indicates more people are happy since 2.1.02.

I am not one of the happy ones though. I think it's way too easy now, and the only difficulty is in finding a worthy opponent since they gutted the AI spawns.

Last night I was roaming around in a shieldless Asp in low sec, running stacked cargo missions for 3 hours. Was interdicted 2 times. Lost 12% hull once because I was busy texting the punchline of a joke. If the game got any easier, I'd have to look for another game.

what was the joke?

 

[Ziljan]

what was the joke?

Can't remember.... was trying to add more challenge to the game and was on my Nth beer.

 

[Lheim]

I've personally reserved judgement in this latest poll until now, but I finally settled on 'too hard'.

It's not that I'm getting killed; I know when to run. It's that even fights that were comparatively simple before are now irritating, not fun. I don't want to have to duel a DBE for five minutes. Let alone the unnatural maneuverability issue - the ai reaction speed and fine control - the interdictions are as tediously repetitive as they've ever been, only now instead of being a roadbump they're drastic wastes of time and repair funds.

And for the record, I think there's something still drastically wrong with NPC loadout - and it's a tricky thing; I find mid-fight their shields pop up and become nigh invincible, or their maneuverability increases to the point where I just can't get them in sight any more.

So I can handle it personally. I think for anybody much less good at combat than me it would be a frustrating *mess* of a thing, though.

 

[CMDR_TheBS]

This may be confirmation bias. I think I could count those people on one hand

Is anyone where making more than 5M trading or mining in a Python, doing legal runs, before they have an insurance claim? I.e., make enough to cover their 5M+ insurance claim?

It's really not that bad for everyone - let's work out why you're getting such bad luck rather than blaming people - there's always ways and means.

No, what I'm saying is that to date, people who counter my posts are either doing combat (and rarely in a Python), or running slaves, to cover their regular insurance losses.

I never lost a ship prior to 2.1, sans twice, over 250 hours. Once was me being stupid early on (like with under 1M credits to my name, first 10-20 hours in) in an Eagle, trying combat for the first time. The other was a combination of glitch and ignorance, sitting on a pad on a planet, getting blown up by the pad (but at least it was just a Vulture, so only 0.6M insurance claim).

I then had 4 Python insurance claims in a total of 6 hours of playing, 2 from 2.1, 2 more from 2.1.02. I'm now in a Vulture for a reason. Minimal insurance claim. Kinda killed my reason for playing to be so component limited when trading, mining, let alone for local (within 500ly) exploration.

 

[relayer]

So I think it's becoming obvious that the current issue is the multifactorial algorithms that determine interdiction frequency and interdictor strength. The AI improvement has simply cast a spotlight on these issues and is not the problem in itself.

<snip>


Add to this RNG and we can get the wildly differing events seen for different players who superficial appear to be of the same level.

<snip>

Now I suspect that these algorithms have not really changed from 2.0 and that this is the area that FD needs to concentrate on getting the balance right. I suspect this will not be easy and they will require good quality data from us as to what we are seeing. Hyperbole and ranting will not help fix the problem. Accurate and detailed information as to what has happened to your CMDR will.

Lets help FD here to give us a game that's as balanced as possible for all players and playing styles.

Great, thoughtful post. SOMEthing is going on in the RNG, and appears to affect mostly players who've been working rank & assets for months or more than a year. People who are doing a wipe and then see the "normal" ratings on NPCs is a big clue to something muzzy in 2.1.etc.

 

[Zeta Legion]

Use your logic. If people are leaving because it's too hard you'd expect to see the a dwindling voter base skewing towards too easy, not towards too hard. "Easy" voters wouldn't stop playing because it's too hard, lol. Logic man, logic. Ergo, the dwindling number of people concerned with the issue indicates more people are happy since 2.1.02.

I am not one of the happy ones though. I think it's way too easy now, and the only difficulty is in finding a worthy opponent since they gutted the AI spawns.

Last night I was roaming around in a shieldless Asp in low sec, running stacked cargo missions for 3 hours. Was interdicted 2 times. Lost 12% hull once because I was busy texting the punchline of a joke. If the game got any easier, I'd have to look for another game.

You seem to want brutally punishing games and to hell with everyone else's opinion. If the game isn't hardcore enough for you might I suggest Silver Surfer or Super Meat Boy.

 

[HBK]

I've finally had a chance to get into a few fights after long-distance footling about to open up engineers.

It's harder. Not too hard, at least for the ship I'm flying, but the frequency of NPCs you just plain run from seems a little heavy (aside from the probable issues with NPc generation that we're probably not going to hear any more details about until FD find what's going awry and fix it).

Unfortunately, the fights are more boring, for all the reasons other people have outlined. 'Better' in this context, seems to mean that they are very predictable. Effective, but predictable. Give me NPCs that do something a little different, even if they're technically 'too easy', any day. For pilots who were bored pre-2.1, the underlying problem was never difficulty per se - it was a lack of player engagement due to limited AI behaviour and the rote quality that fighting took on. Now, alas, fighting is even more by rote.

Big + 1 to that. It's not so much that they're harder. It's that they're even less fun to fight than when they were spinning to death.

 

[relayer]

Some people stop playing the game because of the AI? I'm not sure how we're getting such a different experience, could it be the background simulation's doing?

That is exactly what we're poking about to try to understand. Almost a third of the people posting in the innumerable NPC/AI threads are experiencing something the other 2/3rds are not. It's kind of difficult to write that large a number off as "bad flying/anarchy sectors/you don't know how to play this game."

Also, we're getting reports/data from players (like me) who've been playing for 18 months or more and certainly know how to get out of an interdiction or when to fight. I also ran cargo almost exclusively for 18 months; I have a pretty good feel for frequency of being being interdicted, what levels bandits had, where low-sec & hi-sec are and etc.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

I haven't even voted yet in the Poll! Anybody paying me something for a certain vote to support those funky numbergames?

THE NUMBER GAMES

Contestants are given one number & have to work it into some kind of theory that makes sense.
If you make a wrong choice, they kill you, until only one is left...

 

[frostypaw]

Is anyone where making more than 5M trading or mining in a Python, doing legal runs, before they have an insurance claim? I.e., make enough to cover their 5M+ insurance claim?

Not being rude but I don't really understand this as a question

No, what I'm saying is that to date, people who counter my posts are either doing combat (and rarely in a Python), or running slaves, to cover their regular insurance losses.

I've not lost a ship since my first week of playing and I've never transported a single slave.

I've incurred about 125,000cr in repairs lately though, but made about 6million.

I'm in an asp, no shield boosters, one HRP. no modified weapons. I do mostly data delivery and "find us X" missions, I avoid combat - my rank is novice.

Fella I know you're somehow seeing that everyone's dying horribily and slave trade and combat is the only way forwards but it's just Not That Way for a large large number of people. There are other factors at work here that you need to consider and just getting angry and making wild claims won't get you anywhere but ignored by folk

 

[Zeta Legion]

Big + 1 to that. It's not so much that they're harder. It's that they're even less fun to fight than when they were spinning to death.

Everyone seems to have forgotten that the 2.0 AI is the 1.4 AI, which introduced some wacky behavior like the death roll. Before that the AI was somewhat better.

Honestly it seems like FD set out to create a deliberately 'gamey' AI with this patch with the sole purpose of killing players without considering if they would be at all fun to fight. While it's nice to see my shields take damage or god forbid go down in a fight, their ability to fight and potentially win is based entirely on their superhuman ability to manipulate their ships' thrusters and previously their instant access to top-shelf (and sometimes broken) engineer mods.

The new AI is dumber than a sack of hammers, relying purely on pitching and jousting to damage you while remaining out of your fire arcs. They have the ability to instantly respond to maneuvers or attacks that they should not even be able to see. They never miss unless you are actively trying to dodge, which makes skill shot weapons like PAs unnaturally effective in their hands, but generally considered a poor choice for players (how many people are still using PAs with the new C4 weapons? Nobody I've seen). They are unnaturally effective at interdictions, making drop, boost, and jump the only viable tactic if you aren't equipped to fight the target off, which takes so long and pays so little it's simply not worth it unless you're just spoiling for a fight. Difficulty scaling is out of whack, and the galaxy is flooded with far too many Elite and Deadly NPCs despite CONSTANT assurances these         s would be rare and special.

For me, the AI is not impossible to beat. I've won every fight I've deigned to take part in bar one. However it simply is not FUN to fight for the reasons listed above. 'Difficult' is not the word that springs to mind when I think of the AI, the word that does is 'Cheap'.

 

[sensai25]

Interdicted 8 TIMES in a sigle trip.

AWFUL. Mission update ... very very ... BORING stupid no brain system.

 

[Ziljan]

Zeta I agree that the AI is currently easy mode. But unnatural aim? I've yet to be hit by even 1 PA since 2.1 launched. Their aim is terrible.

If I stand like a statue, with zero throttle, they'll still miss!!

I have to wonder if the AI is rolling out the red carpet and falling on their swords just for me? Because clearly I'm playing a different game than the people who are dying in Pythons. Or maybe just playing with more knowledge and build all of my ships to withstand at least one direct hit from a warm puff of air?

 

[ShimEnki]

I simply took a 500K transport mission--legal, and voila, FDL using module kilers takes out all of mine in a few seconds and hull to about 35%, the most damage ive taken in the Python since i bought him months ago...

So, removed OP weaps did they?

 

[Olrik]

Interdicted 8 TIMES in a sigle trip.

That's not good.

Zeta I agree that the AI is currently easy mode.

Easy or difficult, that's not the point.Can we tone down the frequency of interdictions?

 

[relayer]

But there's more than just me playing this game...

<snip>

I'm human and am therefore capable of using my own experiences to extrapolate how things like changes to difficulty can affect players who aren't like me.

<snip>

I won't be leaving - but others will. And I don't want them to, because we are a community.

A beautiful, thoughtful post. You are repped.

 

[Ziljan]

Easy or difficult, that's not the point.Can we tone down the frequency of interdictions?

Go to high sec. Wait in SC with a ship made of pure gold - sans mission. Keep waiting. Call me back in 3 hours.

Slight exaggeration? Sure. But hyperbole seems necessary these days just to make a point.

Even with stacked cargo missions, I was only interdicted 2 times last night in 3 hours of playing. In my shieldless Asp no less! That is not an exaggeration. I can't get interdicted to save my life.

You know my group set out to make a swath of safe space for Explorers to dock without issues. But it seems our BGS manipulations have made our area way too dull and safe now too.

 

[Marra Morgan]

I simply took a 500K transport mission--legal, and voila, FDL using module kilers takes out all of mine in a few seconds and hull to about 35%, the most damage ive taken in the Python since i bought him months ago...

So, removed OP weaps did they?

Made a bug report, did you?

(No, of course not )

 

[Zeta Legion]

Go to high sec. Wait in SC with a ship made of pure gold - sans mission. Keep waiting. Call me back in 3 hours.

Slight exaggeration? Sure. But hyperbole seems necessary these days just to make a point.

Even with stacked cargo missions, I was only interdicted 2 times last night in 3 hours of playing. In my shieldless Asp no less! That is not an exaggeration. I can't get interdicted to save my life.

You know my group set out to make a swath of safe space for Explorers to dock without issues. But it seems our BGS manipulations have made our area way too dull and safe now too.

I have done a great many cargo missions, and I find that as soon as one of them procs the hitman conga line I'll be in for about ten interdictions per system until I get rid of the tainted mission in question, possibly more, if the station is more than 100Ls from the star.

Even getting them to crash into the star or god forbid winning the minigame doesn't slow them down for long, they seem to re-appear directly behind me about 20-30 seconds later. So it just becomes this boring slog of submit, boost, jump, inch forward a few Ls, get dragged back about half by the interdiction, repeat until that jackass literally tries to follow me into the mailslot and gets disintegrated. Then his backup dancers take over.