'Attack of the AI' III

[Turjan]

My main account is in deep space. My alt account (which I shouldn't have to have btw - still waiting on those Kickstarter promised extra Commander slots, Frontier ) is in the bubble.

Since 2.1 my Vulture-flying alt has ranked up from Competent to Expert. I haven't lost a ship while doing that either. I've learned that smaller ships are now a waste of my time to fight because they all seem to possess Enhanced Performance Thrusters and so take too long to kill to be worthwhile. Big ships (which don't have the new overpowered small engines of course) can still be outmanoeuvred however, and so make for quicker targets.

I'll add one more thing - my alt account is 1.6 and I will not be buying Horizons for it. I have a lifetime pass on my main, and as I said above, it's bad enough that I had to buy a second account to have a second Commander anyway, so that's quite enough expense thank you.

So, having said that I haven't lost a ship since 2.1, have gained a combat rank, don't have (nor can ever get) Engineer mods on that alt Vulture, but have been fighting (and beating) Engineer-modded NPCs on what is therefore a completely unbalanced playing field...what do I think of the new A.I.?

It's too hard.

No, not for me - as I just stated, I seem to be able to survive it (even though I have to say I now find combat more irritating by an order of magnitude).
But there's more than just me playing this game...

I've been playing space combat games since the original Elite in 1984.
But I am not a combat machine. I'm human and am therefore capable of using my own experiences to extrapolate how things like changes to difficulty can affect players who aren't like me.

The AI is simply now too hard for a lot of players. And this is not whining on the part those players - I have read many heartfelt, considered posts on this forum from players who suddenly feel completely out of their depth and are asking for advice on how to cope. Sometimes they can adapt, but just as often, they cannot. Some people simply are not as good at combat as others, and simply telling them to "git gud" is like shouting "learn to swim, man!" at someone who's drowning because they can't swim

For every player whose love for Elite is lost through frustration caused by the new AI, that's one piece of ourselves we've lost as the Elite community.

For my own part, I don't find the new AI too tough, but I do find it less intelligent, and possessed of a limited range of overpowered gear that it uses with superhuman efficiency. Basically, I find it disappointing and annoying.

But if my combat skills were less, then I know (because humans, empathy, you see... ) I would find it not only annoying, but frustrating, way too hard, and it could well be the thing that made me leave the game entirely.

I won't be leaving - but others will. And I don't want them to, because we are a community.

It all comes down to a simple equation :

If you make the AI easier, it won't affect me at all. But if you keep the AI this hard, it will affect them.

 

[HBK]

And yes, I agree, most the remaining issues are not to do with the AI itself, but more to do with reasons that certain NPCs spawn. It feels broken on both ends. Seems like merchants are getting the spawns that combatants want, and vis versa.

I think I can agree with that. Still, even if it's just the new AI allowing us to see underlying issues who have been there from day one, and even if it would obviously be preferable to fix those issues, if it's way easier to revert to the old AI than to fix those issues (and I suspect it is, and by a fair margin, otherwise FD would have fixed them long ago), then maybe for now it's best to revert the AI changes while they fix the broken spawns (for example) instead of having to deal with a double jeopardy.

 

[gofast1993]

Haha, I see you're a Doom fan

 

[sutex]

Originally Posted by Carmaki
If I'm gonna be honest, I still dislike the AI immensely, and this update has been nothing but a giant PITA for me over all.
...snip...
Other people may enjoy it, but I don't... Which is a shame, because I was actually having fun before the patch.

One thing to think about that might work for you is to clear your save. The game seems much better balanced if you start from scratch again. I understand that this can be very difficult for some, but it might help you find what you enjoy doing.

Just hide the screw drivers first

 

[Mohenjo]

It means that 60.56% of voters would think it was too easy if it was made any easier.


More importantly though, this poll only has about 25% of the total voters in the last poll. Which means only about 278 people bothered to vote "too hard" compared to the ~1000 in the last poll. This suggests that the issue of "difficulty" isn't nearly as pressing a concern to most people as it was before the 2.1.02 nerf. This thread also has 75% less posts than the 4000 post thread in the last poll. Which is further proof that the vast majority of people who voted in the prior poll are now too busy playing the game, and probably aren't even aware there is another poll...

More likely they are occupied trying to find Cracked Industrial Firmware.

The lack of voters could easily be interpreted either way. It could be that voters aren't here to vote because they're in the game, but it's AT LEAST equally likely (and I think more likely) that they're just not here at all, having left the game altogether.

I don't agree with your conclusion.

 

[HBK]

FdL, running biweaves and full boosters. That's about 835 MJ. With 3.5 pips in shields, a run of two PA shots (I'm guessing large, t'was a Python) drops a full ring. Yeah, the AI doesn't cheat, like at all.

If you wanna know the numbers, two large PAs should be around 160 damage (unmitigated). Do the math.

No beam weapon and no other projectile that i could see (maybe a few MC shells, but runs were very short, hit&run and all that, so it can't explain the shield pop corn).

It was funny to see three police vipers gangbanging him for two minutes while I was dodging his shots (obviously, he was easily outmaneuvering me, being in a lighter ship and all).

Oh well!

Edit: I should add that HIS shields were very durable and could come back online in less than a minute after collapsing (could see it a few times). Funny how life can be heh.

 

[frostypaw]

The lack of voters could easily be interpreted either way. It could be that voters aren't here to vote because they're in the game, but it's AT LEAST equally likely (and I think more likely) that they're just not here at all, having left the game altogether.

I don't agree with your conclusion.

It seems to me pretty far fetched that people wouldn't have a second pop at it having just received a newsletter telling them that the AI has been patched, and it only being a week or so since launch.

Folk aren't generally ACTUALLY that flouncy even if they post like it at times.

 

[Olrik]

For every player whose love for Elite is lost through frustration caused by the new AI, that's one piece of ourselves we've lost as the Elite community

Rep +

 

[Turjan]

It means that 60.56% of voters would think it was too easy if it was made any easier.


More importantly though, this poll only has about 25% of the total voters in the last poll. Which means only about 278 people bothered to vote "too hard" compared to the ~1000 in the last poll. This suggests that the issue of "difficulty" isn't nearly as pressing a concern to most people as it was before the 2.1.02 nerf. This thread also has 75% less posts than the 4000 post thread in the last poll. Which is further proof that the vast majority of people who voted in the prior poll are now too busy playing the game, and probably aren't even aware there is another poll...

More likely they are occupied trying to find Cracked Industrial Firmware.

Nope, you're missing another alternative - has it occurred to you that the numerical discrepancy may be because people have left the game because of the "difficulty"?

If they have, I hope it's just for the time being, until this issue is sorted out.

Point is, an absence of something proves neither acceptance nor disapproval. All it means is those people haven't voted in this poll for "reasons". But you and I have no idea what those reasons actually are, and so our speculations shouldn't be given any more credibility than a wild baseless guess, because that's all we're doing.

 

[TheGrimCorsair]

Feels a bit off in the mid-range. Like there's a fairly big spike in AI capability around Competent/Expert, but that the difference between there and Elite just isn't that huge. FDev will probably need to dial back the mid-range AI a bit, and flesh out the Dangerous/Deadly/Elite paradigm.

Doesn't feel broken or overly difficult to play around to me on the whole, but I've got an excess of time to spend practicing and playing. New players running into mid-range AI (which will happen fairly often) are, on the other hand, gonna get eaten alive. A lot. Hard not to imagine it ruining the first impressions of a lot of folks.

 

[Faded Glory]

[snip]
Nope, you're missing another alternative - has it occurred to you that the numerical discrepancy may be because people have left the game because of the "difficulty"?

If they have, I hope it's just for the time being, until this issue is sorted out.

Played since beta, but stopped this week. Not because of AI difficulty, but a combination of factors...*

I hope to come back, I have the LEP, but really felt in the last few sessions that I was simply wasting my time, and I have other ways I can do that.

*

Spoiler

By no means an exhaustive list...

Bugged missions! Assassinate an NPC deserter, did it but the game didn't recognize it so mission failed. Has happened twice.
Took a mission to assassinate a different deserter, but completely wrong targets spawned in the mission specific signal source.
Surface salvage missions where I have to re-set the instance to get enough of whatever it is I'm supposed to salvage. Very immersive.
Legal salvage missions where the cargo is illicit.
The idea that sitting outside a station scanning random wakes is fun. (I know, I don't have to do it... )

None of these 'break the game', I freely admit that, and recognize that most are bugs that will presumably at some point get fixed, but it becomes cumulatively frustrating, and I don't play this game (or any game) to be frustrated.

+ Rep Turjan for admitting to having empathy.

I think it's nice that many posters have also come on and given suggestions on how to 'escape' from the NPCs. Problem with that, on reflection, is that having to run away most of the time is probably not fun. The games content surely is there to be engaged with, not avoided, so somehow FD have to balance the content that is presented to players so it can be fun for them.

Hopefully bug fixes and balancing will come.

 

[yodajedifishmaster]

Frontier provided a solution: high security systems.


They are abundant.

you mean they are no different to any other. right now having cargo = being in an anarchy system. no matter what the info on system says. i wonder why a cargo of human waste = a big haul...

 

[nothingfaced]

And this is the divide. People are fed up with continual interdictions, are given advice as to how to run but that's not the issue. The problem is the continual interdictions themselves: unless you're into combat, it ain't fun. And that's why people are here complaining.

 

[frostypaw]

you mean they are no different to any other. right now having cargo = being in an anarchy system. no matter what the info on system says. i wonder why a cargo of human waste = a big haul...

This is totally not true for me.

I spent ages wandering around high-sec space with cargo on board and not and barely attracted any attention. rather different outside it though.

Please, let's try and progress - if it's happening to you but not many others then it's buggy and you should report it - not complain as if it's an intended feature.

 

[sutex]

harder meaner scarier ...........Thargoids jump out ...when you least expect it , blow everything up

 

[yodajedifishmaster]

And this is the divide. People are fed up with continual interdictions, are given advice as to how to run but that's not the issue. The problem is the continual interdictions themselves: unless you're into combat, it ain't fun. And that's why people are here complaining.

i have no problem with more interdictions myself as i am an armed jack of all trades in my asp. not a pure trader. what is the issue for me is the levels - the lowest if i have cargo is expert, i get master also about twice as often as expert, but most are dangerous. the one that killed me last was a master clipper. the others were vipers and vultures and clippers. imperial eagle. i dont run a combat ship. i didnt check the npcs for cargo racks either, but they are all combat slanted ships, unlike the asp explorer.

even including my part built FAS my assets dont hit 80 mil. (i think its 74 million credits total ish). maybe the npcs are generated by the most powerful ship you own which means the game looks and doesnt check the ship you are FLYING but the most combat set up ship you have. only way to check that for me is to dump the FAS. i really went for all the missions so i could have a combat ship and i really wanted the FAS. just for if i fancied a change from the usual. i dont see why that should be generating my npcs - what am i supposed to do, magically teleport the FAS to where i am and swap to it when interdicted? the idea seems ludicrous now. that cant be how its being done.

im just at a loss to understand why. i dont know what else to do to avoid it except give up on anything like cargo - including no missions that involve commodity rewards. i dont seem to have problem when doing missions to carry specific cargo to x place. maybe i would if i had to source some and return it. and i cant face losing my ship in situations where i have no chance to defeat them NOR flee - no chance unless i avoid all combat. and if im not going to have fun playing, why play? thats why im posting i guess frostypaw im just unable to face playing. im sort of hoping that will die away, over time.

 

[CMDR_TheBS]

And this is the divide. People are fed up with continual interdictions, are given advice as to how to run but that's not the issue. The problem is the continual interdictions themselves: unless you're into combat, it ain't fun. And that's why people are here complaining.

I want to add one more thing to this, beyond the CZ/RES aspects. Because I've long said if they want to kick up the quality of the combat NPCs, that's understandable.

But I've noted several people who responded who said they like the challenge, outside of the CZs, are running salves and other contraband and making 10-15M/hour. That's great for you! You're still making a profit!

For those of us who are legitimate miners, traders and local explorers, we're losing more money in insurance costs. Which is why I've dropped back down to a Vulture. Yeah, I die faster than well shielded and armed Python when running cargo or mining (yes, I'm mining in a Vulture), and I have less limpets and a reduced refinery. But I can make money, even after an insurance claim, on average.

 

[frostypaw]

<<< has never run a single tonne of slaves.

Please don't prejudge all the people not complaining as a bunch of pro-pilot slave trading moneybags. They're trying not to prejudge you as just whinging and being a bad pilot - lets all accept there are a few issues still with the game's handing of NPCs and get to the bottom of that, not each other.

 

[CMDR_TheBS]

<<< has never run a single tonne of slaves.

Please don't prejudge all the people not complaining as a bunch of pro-pilot slave trading moneybags. They're trying not to prejudge you as just whinging and being a bad pilot - lets all accept there are a few issues still with the game's handing of NPCs and get to the bottom of that, not each other.

I'm just saying many I've see respond were saying they had no issues as they ran X slaves and made YY millions before they finally got killed, and liked the new challenge.

 

[frostypaw]

I'm just saying many I've see respond were saying they had no issues as they ran X slaves and made YY millions before they finally got killed, and liked the new challenge.

This may be confirmation bias. I think I could count those people on one hand

It's really not that bad for everyone - let's work out why you're getting such bad luck rather than blaming people - there's always ways and means.