Engineers The Engineers is turning into a deja vu for me

[Starender]

1.1 - CG - almost useless, it's a grind fest nothing more.
1.2 - Wings - no team mission, no way to properly communicate or create group with other people.
1.3 - PP - almost useless, we can't really shape the geopolitical our-self it's just an illusion.
1.4 - CQC - Why do we have the rank in our ship if we have to go thru the main menu to access it ?
1.5 - Ships - more ships is always good
2.0 - Planetary Landings - great SRV handling, gravity, and great for pictures, but there's no gameplay involved.
2.1 - Engineers - a lot of great things, almost all killed by RNG. (RNG missions, RNG material hunt, RNG upgrades)

I guess there not so much new things since first beta. :x

 

[Scoopy Doopy]

I realise this might be a minority opinion but I think the idea of the engineers themselves is a fundamentally broken idea in a game like Elite. Playing the beta only reinforced this idea for me. As a couple of posts have alluded to in this thread, only bad things can come of it in my view.

Making all the ships tailored to your own tastes sounds a great idea if you don't think too much about it. I have to ask though, what is the point of modding my ship? I see no point apart from seeing what the change looks or feels like. It gives nothing I don't already have.

Any balance between you, an opponent or the environment goes out of the window with the engineers. The level playing field that allows true competition, skills matching and an indicator of where you are in any progress you attempt to make is gone. This is true for all professions. Combat pilot skill is largely trumped by thruster enhancements, buckyball times and exploration limits are trumped by FSD enhancements. Even a standard trader or smuggler is trumped by someone (or something) else with enhanced modules. The only way to re-dress the balance is for all ships to max out their mods and then you might as well not have them at all.

In my view, the RNG nature of the engineers is just the start of the problems people are having. When everybody finally has the mods they want is when I think the real problems will become evident.

Lastly, I would like to mention the NPC's and mods which bothered me ever since I first saw that "healing beam" graphic and started to see the kind of things the engineers could (sometimes) do. If the NPC's don't have mods then those for whom combat is the main part of the game will slaughter them and get bored. IF NPC's do have them, the engineering mods become mandatory and nearly everybody will get bored or possibly just quit if getting mods is too annoying.

IF, the mods only gave minor improvements then this all would not have mattered but then again, you'd wonder what the point was.

 

[Wicz]

Disclosure, I am not a "game design expert" but I am psychology student (presenting my final project, so hopefully a psychology graduate in the next few months!) and I have put a fair bit of time into studying gamification of learning and the research on reward/motivation in games.

Having put a lot of time studying those subjects, I get the feeling that is precisely what FDev lacks. I think they're playing it by ear, and it is really not working out. I don't mean it in a negative manner, and I am not trying to insult the developers, but I really think they need to take a little bit more of a scientific approach and see what is out there regarding research and theory when designing motivation/effort/reward models.

E: D is far too complex a beast to approach with half-baked ideas. And I do think that both Powerplay and Engineers were horribly half-baked ideas. Lots of comments out there in the forums detailing extensively how and why. The design rationale that seems to have gone into both patches goes completely against good design practices. Honestly, I sort of wish I would have chosen this situation as my final paper's research subject.

I think FDev needs to realize that they cant sustain the game taking that amateur-hour approach and get some people that know their game design theory to advise them and guide them in realizing their vision.

This, before it's too late, if it isn't already!

 

[Stagno Jones]

I realise this might be a minority opinion but I think the idea of the engineers themselves is a fundamentally broken idea in a game like Elite. Playing the beta only reinforced this idea for me. As a couple of posts have alluded to in this thread, only bad things can come of it in my view.

Making all the ships tailored to your own tastes sounds a great idea if you don't think too much about it. I have to ask though, what is the point of modding my ship? I see no point apart from seeing what the change looks or feels like. It gives nothing I don't already have.

Any balance between you, an opponent or the environment goes out of the window with the engineers. The level playing field that allows true competition, skills matching and an indicator of where you are in any progress you attempt to make is gone. This is true for all professions. Combat pilot skill is largely trumped by thruster enhancements, buckyball times and exploration limits are trumped by FSD enhancements. Even a standard trader or smuggler is trumped by someone (or something) else with enhanced modules. The only way to re-dress the balance is for all ships to max out their mods and then you might as well not have them at all.

In my view, the RNG nature of the engineers is just the start of the problems people are having. When everybody finally has the mods they want is when I think the real problems will become evident.

Lastly, I would like to mention the NPC's and mods which bothered me ever since I first saw that "healing beam" graphic and started to see the kind of things the engineers could (sometimes) do. If the NPC's don't have mods then those for whom combat is the main part of the game will slaughter them and get bored. IF NPC's do have them, the engineering mods become mandatory and nearly everybody will get bored or possibly just quit if getting mods is too annoying.

IF, the mods only gave minor improvements then this all would not have mattered but then again, you'd wonder what the point was.

An excellent point indeed.

 

[NeilF]

I realise this might be a minority opinion but I think the idea of the engineers themselves is a fundamentally broken idea in a game like Elite. Playing the beta only reinforced this idea for me. As a couple of posts have alluded to in this thread, only bad things can come of it in my view.

Making all the ships tailored to your own tastes sounds a great idea if you don't think too much about it. I have to ask though, what is the point of modding my ship? I see no point apart from seeing what the change looks or feels like. It gives nothing I don't already have.

Any balance between you, an opponent or the environment goes out of the window with the engineers. The level playing field that allows true competition, skills matching and an indicator of where you are in any progress you attempt to make is gone. This is true for all professions. Combat pilot skill is largely trumped by thruster enhancements, buckyball times and exploration limits are trumped by FSD enhancements. Even a standard trader or smuggler is trumped by someone (or something) else with enhanced modules. The only way to re-dress the balance is for all ships to max out their mods and then you might as well not have them at all.

In my view, the RNG nature of the engineers is just the start of the problems people are having. When everybody finally has the mods they want is when I think the real problems will become evident.

Lastly, I would like to mention the NPC's and mods which bothered me ever since I first saw that "healing beam" graphic and started to see the kind of things the engineers could (sometimes) do. If the NPC's don't have mods then those for whom combat is the main part of the game will slaughter them and get bored. IF NPC's do have them, the engineering mods become mandatory and nearly everybody will get bored or possibly just quit if getting mods is too annoying.

IF, the mods only gave minor improvements then this all would not have mattered but then again, you'd wonder what the point was.

Yep. Well made post.

It's a lump of development time that seems to in truth offer no improvement to the gameplay (ie: quality/depth/what's available), and worse still possibly detracts from it due to making it all the more convoluted, all the while risking a myriad of balancing issues...


The issue now it that the genie is out of the bottle and I fear we are where we are, and nothing will change much now. At least with Powerplay you could ignore it... But it's not so easy with The Engineers. It almost feels like the question is what can be done as regards damage limitation TBH. Personally I see it as a huge question mark over what designs are getting the go ahead for development.

 

[ElectricZ]

At the risk of just offering another "me too" I can pretty much "me too" what the OP says, so...

Me too.

A repeating theme of ED from the get go was a dislike of RNG elements as a substitute for challenge, a lack of risk vs reward, and lack of love for "the core game." The fact the same things are being said after each update for so long should be very telling. I brought this up in another topic, but take a look at this thread from the gamma back in 2014:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...will-not-be-recommending-this-game-to-friends

This is a complaint post, so anyone not mature enough to handle criticism of the game or wanting to speak on behalf of the devs should probably just stop reading.

By far the most frustrating/annoying part of this game is the inability to acquire desired modules for ships. There is nothing fun about flying around searching for a better FSD drive when the search itself is random and hindered by the very drive you're wanting to upgrade. A huge game world isn't really appealing when combined with such a system. I've spent hours flying around trying to find a particular upgrade and when I didn't, it felt like wasted time.

When this game releases, if the item availability is left as-is, reviewers will take note of it and the game's initial reviews will suffer for it. I know the hardcore fans will stay and take whatever you give them but for most players looking for an enjoyable space sim, this sort of completely unnecessary tedium will put them off as it has me. I'm not really the type of person who thinks spending two hours searching for an item is a good use of free time. I'm sure there are people that disagree, but you have to wonder who the target audience really is if this is working as intended. My impression is that widespread appeal to gamers will not be accomplished this way.

The thread is 20 pages long, but if you took out the dates, it would be perfectly at home on the 2.1 forums - down to the rabid doomsayers and rabid defenders going at each other as a few people try to make solid points about how to improve the game. It's seriously like the same exact thread you'd find today... Which is very telling.

Elite Dangerous is a game about flying in your spaceship and doing spaceshippy kinds of things. Engineers does the exact opposite by locking you into gameplay that prevents you from playing Elite Dangerous as a pilot. Running around to look for randomly spawning plot coupons to turn them in to get a random reward turns ship modding into the claw game at an arcade. Sure you can aim the claw at the nifty digital watch in the pile, but you're just as likely to get the crappy Pokemon knockoff, or worse, nothing for your efforts.

But it's getting harder every time after I take a break from the game to keep coming back. I will say that the new mission system, warts and all, is a big step in the right direction. I actually have fun with it. But the Engineers themselves are a huge step back, which is a shame because like PowerPlay before it, the idea is great... it's the execution that just hasn't worked for me.

 

[xaisis]

I agree with much of the stuff said here.

Powerplay: Dont play it, adds grind, no reason, no reward worth the mass of npc hostility.
Wings: Nope. The friends i would like to wing with are bored of the game or simply do not see why they should spend the money on what seems a grind-fest. why no AI wing-mates?

Engineers: I am really trying, but it all just seems so drawn out.. a chore..

• I got multiple ships, i have to move them all around, takes more then a day. (why is there no game mechanics for this???)
• If i have more then 8 items i cant buy a hauler to go get the next ship. where is the commodity storage?.
• Gathering 50 or 200 rares for the invites.. 2-6 pr 10min, max 12 in the hold. wha?!?
• Going around looking for materials.. we are in the year 3000 where are the nifty search tools for this?
• Crafting.. there are no crafting by the player. we put a coin in a slot-machine and pull a lever. (we could have had a crafting module or crafting station, where we could have used our own skill set/tree to make stuff) & when we get something nice.. where is my chest to store it in?
• Bookmarks. nice but seems to be just thrown in.. no sorting options, no sub-folders, no tekst box where i can write details. would have been nice if i could plot rutes from the nav panel as we

I am having trouble, i want to play, i like space games, i like space, but its somehow killing it for me.

Lots of stuff looks nice, is nice. but if i look closer at the features we have been getting with updates, many of them seems half baked.

One thing that have made this a nice experience til now is the addons players have been making such as trade extension, voice attack packs & such. but all those are things i kinda feel should have been in the game itself. (Detailed bookmarking with notes, databases for what i find as i play)


I ask a friend to come play this game, he ask what the game can offer. i tell him some of this stuff. will he want to play it? no.

Should i say. ohh but its a 10 year cycle ? ^_^ get real.


But it is space, i cant let go of space. Just hope i well see some stuff in the next updates that will add something i find interesting.

 

[Rezri]

Just wanted to pop in and thank Krieger for starting a fantastic thread. Civil, constructive feedback is present throughout it, and I thank everyone that's taken their time to contribute to it.

Many of you have nailed how I feel about the state of the game right now with an eloquence I could only hope to possess. I'm currently addled with a myriad of bugs in regards to missions, permits, ranks/rep that prevent me from even participating in starting most of the random-chance rep grind with engineers, chasing the dangled-carrots of new equipment and upgrades to play around with that have been present in repeated newsletters. I can't help but feel that even if I wasn't, the sheer wall of the naked time-sink ahead is just too much to bear. I am desperately hoping for a better way to pursue advancement in this release, or at least news of some, but for now I've lost any will to even bother logging in. It's really unfortunate, I think. I was really looking forward to this release.

I'm a hopeless nerd when it comes to immersing myself in the lore of Elite through any literature I can get my hands on, but there's hardly a mention of it anywhere during game play (that I've encountered). It's a little depressing to me, since there is an absolutely enormous amount of it that can be utilized or even just referenced. I'd have no problem at all spending time on long term goals for this game if there were mechanics in place that actually got me engaged with whatever event/mission I happen to be on, emotionally invested in my CMDR, and engrossed in the events around me. It would certainly help to keep a smile on my face in game, especially if you know that the work you are putting in will be worth the time spent in the end. Engaging, challenging content does not equal massive time + random chance, in my opinion. TL;DR : Personally, I'm not finding this approach to be much fun.

 

[Straker]

Rezri, I think you have stated what, perhaps, a lot of us are feeling. For my own part, I was very excited when this game was first announced, however the constant focus towards grinding RNG underpinned gameplay and too many stories involving missing ships are saddening me to a large degree. This game is slowly becoming a massive lost potential. I still hang on because I really want this game to succeed but it's becoming more and more difficult.

 

[Comrade Napoleon]

Just wanted to pop in and thank Krieger for starting a fantastic thread. Civil, constructive feedback is present throughout it, and I thank everyone that's taken their time to contribute to it.

Many of you have nailed how I feel about the state of the game right now with an eloquence I could only hope to possess. I'm currently addled with a myriad of bugs in regards to missions, permits, ranks/rep that prevent me from even participating in starting most of the random-chance rep grind with engineers, chasing the dangled-carrots of new equipment and upgrades to play around with that have been present in repeated newsletters. I can't help but feel that even if I wasn't, the sheer wall of the naked time-sink ahead is just too much to bear. I am desperately hoping for a better way to pursue advancement in this release, or at least news of some, but for now I've lost any will to even bother logging in. It's really unfortunate, I think. I was really looking forward to this release.

I'm a hopeless nerd when it comes to immersing myself in the lore of Elite through any literature I can get my hands on, but there's hardly a mention of it anywhere during game play (that I've encountered). It's a little depressing to me, since there is an absolutely enormous amount of it that can be utilized or even just referenced. I'd have no problem at all spending time on long term goals for this game if there were mechanics in place that actually got me engaged with whatever event/mission I happen to be on, emotionally invested in my CMDR, and engrossed in the events around me. It would certainly help to keep a smile on my face in game, especially if you know that the work you are putting in will be worth the time spent in the end. Engaging, challenging content does not equal massive time + random chance, in my opinion. TL;DR : Personally, I'm not finding this approach to be much fun.

Excellent post IMO !
I wonder how long I will hang on despite the expansions.
PP is virtually useless, grindy and uninspiring, as I see it.
Engineers is a roulette and I do not gamble.

Rng in a game is unavoidable, but should not be over used. Most people will see through it and determine it as bad game design. Most people will also accept grind, especially when it is grounded in "reality" i.e grinding for anaconda, for a new module and so forth. But grinding for no certain out come is off putting to many players. So are illogical game mechanics, interdicted for cargo with no cargo racks, mindless killing by NPC's (The are not Thargoids, are they ?) ect.
I do not know how many feel this way, and how many Cmdr's read and post here, I think it is only a minority, a vocal minority, but also a minority that has been with this game for a long, long time. And when many off them raise concern, I think it matters to some extent.
I think a new casual player would hardly post here, here would just dismiss the game as "useless". Which is a shame. Elite Dangerous deserves more than that.

Cheers Cmdr's

 

[Rezri]

Excellent post IMO !
Rng in a game is unavoidable, but should not be over used.
...
I think a new casual player would hardly post here, here would just dismiss the game as "useless". Which is a shame. Elite Dangerous deserves more than that.

Cheers Cmdr's

Well said, Napoleon, on both points I snipped there. RNG is present in plenty of games, but the ones that have staying power find that balance and normally utilize it differently. I was pretty shocked to discover the current implementation. I've only myself to blame, but I was expecting the blueprint system, loot and crafting to be more along the lines of: Explore/Trade/Combat/<insert activity here> and have a chance to discover a blueprint. Be it by scanning a wrecked ship you just defeated or discovered crashed on the surface (or insert any other example here) and getting a good scan of something custom made, and then taking that blueprint to the engineer to be made. Higher difficulty encounters, better blueprints. As in: Higher difficulty, better loot system that you see in so many other successful games, but adapted to a form fitting for Elite. Perhaps as mission rewards. Color me dense, but I still can't understand the need to introduce 70(plus?) material types and commodities and sourced goods into a system that already suffers delays on database transactions, and not have a way to manage it all between your vessels. If storage is such a chore, can the Engineer not simply keep the mod/mats in question as an IOU so you can fly the ship you want to use back to them and then apply it? Even that sounds like too much busy work to me, but it would cut down on at least some of the hassle.

I hate having to give critical feedback on this game, but I only do so because I love the Elite Universe, and the friends I've made here, including those at Frontier. They are brilliant folks. I know they can correct mistakes. I'm holding on to hope that we see better times ahead, but I'm sticking to just watching the ol' Galnet for what comes next, since I'm just riddled with bugs and broken features at the moment.

 

[EdzUp]

I've uninstalled it for now till the next patch 2.2 as to be honest have played 0.8hours in the last TWO weeks and I don't miss it.

It takes a lot to make me just can't be bothered with a space game, Freelancer I played to completion both single and multiplayer (maxed out Eagle is the upper wall there). ED though I don't have the same feeling for.

 

[withnail]

Engineers will become excellent if they can sort out the RNG side of finding the materials imo. There is currently no skill in srv prospecting.

 

[Muetdhiver]

I must say I am baffled by some design choices made for the engineers.

• Decision to use railroad fetch quests, which stands as the antithesis of sandbox gameplay. At the moment their only role is a time tax to delay access to some engineers. FD, why do you feel you need to put a time tax on your customers time to access content ? (I don't mind "slow" gameplay, as long it is engaging or challenging gameplay, but I do mind grindy gameplay : repetitive, little to no skill, no variation). Then do it again for some of the material collection.
• Large variance RNG for some mods, especially for some high rank mods (that overlap the range of lower ranked mods). FD, when the cost of a roll is that high (time investment), such high variance is only going to irritate (to put it mildly) your players.
• What is the point of having 100+ materials/data to collect. Does it improve the game vs having only 12-20 or so ? If they are supposed to be "grades" of the same item type (as it seems to be), where is the ability to uptrade/downtrade them (exchange low grades to high grades and vice-versa) ?
• Crafting commodities that take cargo space, are only collectable (for some) from missions if you are lucky. With no storage this makes for *irritating* (to say the least) gameplay when trying to upgrade combat ships or when you realize that your FDL has no cargo racks (duh).
• RNG for material rewards from missions => refresh fest as we had for robigo. Either : make it predictable (tied to the economy, system state, mission type, ruling faction gov) or make it support the player crafting interest (materials for pined blueprints). Also, being a bit more generous with materials rewards from missions would not hurt IMO.
• Pure RNG for the special effects. At this stage, you have so much layers of flat RNG that it's just a plain dumb casino roulette. Sorry, but this is crap IMO.

For everything else (i.e. not the engineers) the 2.1 update is superb. I do not dislike RNG per se. I actually quite fan of it when it is used as a way to introduce variation in the gameplay. However, I feel that FD is relying on flat RNG
tables as a crutch, as would a GM running a campaign with only random encounters and treasure tables. This makes for bland (unchallenging and repetitive) and time consuming gameplay relying 100% on extrinsic rewards to pull the player.

Using such crutches for one rushed update is okay, the problem is that it seems to have become a distinctive feature of ED design at this point, and I feel it is a tragic mistake.

At this point, I think that FD should really think about showing their colors on such design choices : Either say, "this is intended, we think it's fun and engaging." Or say, "these are crutches/filler that we know are not optimal, but want to change for something more engaging. soon(tm)."

 

[withnail]

Yes. I would definitely like to hear them say that they have played it and think it's great (in which case I am worried) or say that they agree and will change it.

To be fair, I think this may gave been answered in that they are making changes to obtaining a more predictable result for the engineer roll in the next update.

However, I still wonder whether they think the grindy play is fun. I suspect the gameplay approach for the general player is wrong, in that we should just go about our normal business and accumulate materials and data as we go along.

Either way, feedback from Frontier would be nice.

 

[Titus Balls]

I can honestly say since 2.1 was released I haven't launched the game, and I don't even have it installed on this laptop:

After I did my last video in the beta there has been nothing to draw me back in to the game. In a way it's becoming like Eve - I'm enjoying seeing other people's stories but there is nothing wanting me to take part in it myself.

It was exactly the same with Powerplay. I've never ground for merits, and I'm not grinding for engineer upgrades either.

For me it's this: In any other MMO (but I'll use Eve here because it's the one I played the most) I could do PvE things in dungeons, solo or as a group (like 5/10 sites, sleeper sites, etc.) all in my own time and pace. They would drop stuff I needed to make cool new things, but they wouldn't drop everything.

However what they would also drop is shiny loot I could keep - or I could sell to buy the parts and materials I needed. That is my effort was paid off by being able to meet supply and demand.

In ED there is none of that. As solo I have to collect everything, and there is no real co-op - even when P2P instances do work.

What there is, is an expectation that if I want to progress I have to spend most of my free time doing it. To fly literally light years to find the small chance of getting the materials I need. To drive literally tens to hundreds of KM all for the small chance of finding that particular rock to shoot.

And then on top of that it's down to random chance that I get something I want - and a very good chance that all that effort will be wasted.

Rollocks to that.

Much better would be a game where I can dip in and out, spend an hour or two doing PvE sites, collecting materials and loot and dropping it off at a trade hub to sell TO OTHER PLAYERS who would benefit from my spent time - and my spent time will benefit me. I want to be able to go away, come back a day or two later and have enough money to buy the stuff I need.

Then maybe the game would be more fun. But it sure isn't that just now - for me it's just a pretty space engine with a Yard Work Simulator.

TL;DR - It's a VIDEO GAME not a TIME SINK. Video games should be fun, ED isn't fun in it's current incarnation.

 

[Crash1099]

I can honestly say since 2.1 was released I haven't launched the game, and I don't even have it installed on this laptop:

http://i.imgur.com/Ep89C6z.png

After I did my last video in the beta there has been nothing to draw me back in to the game. In a way it's becoming like Eve - I'm enjoying seeing other people's stories but there is nothing wanting me to take part in it myself.

It was exactly the same with Powerplay. I've never ground for merits, and I'm not grinding for engineer upgrades either.

For me it's this: In any other MMO (but I'll use Eve here because it's the one I played the most) I could do PvE things in dungeons, solo or as a group (like 5/10 sites, sleeper sites, etc.) all in my own time and pace. They would drop stuff I needed to make cool new things, but they wouldn't drop everything.

However what they would also drop is shiny loot I could keep - or I could sell to buy the parts and materials I needed. That is my effort was paid off by being able to meet supply and demand.

In ED there is none of that. As solo I have to collect everything, and there is no real co-op - even when P2P instances do work.

What there is, is an expectation that if I want to progress I have to spend most of my free time doing it. To fly literally light years to find the small chance of getting the materials I need. To drive literally tens to hundreds of KM all for the small chance of finding that particular rock to shoot.

And then on top of that it's down to random chance that I get something I want - and a very good chance that all that effort will be wasted.

Rollocks to that.

Much better would be a game where I can dip in and out, spend an hour or two doing PvE sites, collecting materials and loot and dropping it off at a trade hub to sell TO OTHER PLAYERS who would benefit from my spent time - and my spent time will benefit me. I want to be able to go away, come back a day or two later and have enough money to buy the stuff I need.

Then maybe the game would be more fun. But it sure isn't that just now - for me it's just a pretty space engine with a Yard Work Simulator.

TL;DR - It's a VIDEO GAME not a TIME SINK. Video games should be fun, ED isn't fun in it's current incarnation.

I would throw credits right now for arsenic. Well back to the srv.

 

[FrodoHobbits]

Is this what David Braben envisioned? His idea of an immersive and fun game?

I've asked myself this question over and over in the last few months.
I doubt very much this game is going in the direction that he dreamt it would.
I really love this game, been in it since P-Beta and play mainly in open but alone.
Multi player/Multi Crew sounds like another dud to me.
WHY! can't we have just one AI Wingman?

 

[Marcusfalden]

I tried yesterday again to do the RNGineers spin the wheel game. I failed to see how this is fun. How any of this randomness is any fun. For 2.5 hours i spent going from Elite to Excel to this forum, to google. I never had to do that in any other game ever.

Not in WoW not in Guild Wars, not in Mass Effect never. Is this what 2016 gaming has become?

FYI I have a lot of credits but not much to do with them willing to try to trade if someone could help me with RNGINEERS.

 

[NE1]

Engineers will become excellent if they can sort out the RNG side of finding the materials imo. There is currently no skill in srv prospecting.

For me its the SRV I do understand lots of players wanted it and the same with FPS and walking around when that eventually comes.

For me the game is all about piloting a ship and if the game is turning into a multi-role environment then I will just ignore them and pilot a ship even if it means not benefiting from the extras added.