The Star Citizen Thread v5

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Zyll Goliat

Zyll Goliat
Discourse said:
I've been following the game since late 2013 / early 2014, can't remember exactly when. I'm not sure what you mean by "protect your investment", I don't have a lot of money invested in the project if that is what you mean. Am I a truly hard-core fan? Some people might see me that way I guess but as I said I haven't spent a great deal on the project, I don't constantly spam the message boards and I won't jump to defend CIG without weighing both sides of an argument.

I will say that I like what CIG are doing with Star Citizen because 1. it fulfils a lot of what I want from a game 2. it is pushing the boundaries of what we expect from games and those that develop them and 3. it would be bad for game crowd-funding in general if it fails. I think that makes me someone who wants to see the project succeed, not necessarily a hard-core fan.

Damn you Adult Swim. Now I have something else I have to watch. There isn't enough time in the day. :)
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Fair enough...I appreciate your opinion even that it's totally opposite that my own...I personally think that CR&CIG only pushing the boundaries of delay's&bad management so far,I didn't see anything new besides of the RECORD-HYPE that CR brings to the "table".i am a backer 2 that was folowing this project from the very beginning but I jumped in just few month's prior to the first DFM apperance(end 2013)and soon as I tried that I realize that games going in the other direction from one that was originally pitched.Never the less I did hope that something will change for better and that CIG can do some compromise (game-play-vise)for all and still make a FUN game at the end...well I give up on that 2 after seeing that CIG don't give a .hit about ppl. that rise their voice for so many valid concerns during all this years.

Now you said that if SC fail it will be bad for crowd-funding in general,I think that they allready make huge dmg in there and after this latest TOS changes I even start to believe that's maybe even it's better if they totally Fail but I honestly doubt that this will happened.I am stiill thinking that CIG will delivered something at the end(MVP probablly)but I am pretty sure that this will be one of the biggest FLOP's in the gaming history or in the best case scenario it could be just an mediocre game that will never justify all that money&time invested by all of us......
 
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f.zlim

F
Discourse said:
We'll have to wait and see if people are burnt out on space games by the time SQ42 arrives. I would argue that ED, NMS and SC have helped reinvigorate the market for space games and there is plenty of interest in the genre.
I don't believe the conversion to 64bit was all that simple. It took a number of devs (of which many were employed by Crytek and know the engine intimately) months of work to make the conversion.
Yes it will take a while to fill out the Stanton system however Nyx is already completed and the procedural tech will fill out the rest of the planet / moon. Additionally other content will continue to be added in upcoming patches (for example a pirate base will be released in the 2.5 patch). I still haven't played The Witcher 3 and Civilization 6 is coming out in October so I'm in no rush to get my hands on Stanton :)
I am a very patient person so I don't mind waiting for the Stanton system
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Yes, those games will definitely reinvigorate the space game market.
Problem is by the time SQ42 arrives, those games will be well into several patches of improvements already, and we can safely assume SQ42 features by that time will be nothing new to the market.
Unless SQ42 has a very unique storyline to tell, else gameplay wise, meh consider it lucky if they are on par with the rest of the games out there.
But based on their current tech demo (pre-alpha, alpha or whatever), they have a lot of catching to do.

Took them a while to get to 64 bit is because cryengine3 was not designed with that in mind.
And why cryengine? It's because of the chairman's needs for visual fidelity > gameplay and lag.
I haven't read much into cryengine, but the general consensus is cryengine is a nightmare to work with.
I'm sure there are some experts here that can speak to this.

Nothing is complete till all the game stopping glitches have been resolved.
There may be nice assets done, but if gameplay is glitched to hell, there is no game.
This is the worrying sign from 2.3 to 2.4.

Yea...I think you will be better off playing Witcher 3 and Civi 6.
Get away from SC/CIG for a while and come back later.
Who knows, you may be able to see more than now.
 
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eminus

E
for what its worth croberts and his goons are good at presenting..but not delivering..historically wise

[video=youtube_share;gawRjeZisYY]https://youtu.be/gawRjeZisYY[/video]
 

Skizomeuh

Skizomeuh
By the way, about the magical 64bit keyword, did anyone try to test it? Like by reaching 2 QD POIs in cruise mode? Any way to reach the opposite side of a planet?
 
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Backer42

B
f.zlim said:
But based on their current tech demo (pre-alpha, alpha or whatever), they have a lot of catching to do.

Took them a while to get to 64 bit is because cryengine3 was not designed with that in mind.
And why cryengine? It's because of the chairman's needs for visual fidelity > gameplay and lag.
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It's Duke Nukem Forever all over again.

Star Citizen looks like a mod for a 2009 game. It's outdated: the engine is outdated, the campaign concept is outdated, the story is outdated and Chris Roberts is outdated.

Even if the technical hurdles get solved, just like with DNF the game will still be outdated content-wise.

There may be nice assets done, but if gameplay is glitched to hell, there is no game.
Click to expand...
Also there is no real art direction, which is the reason, why all assets look just generic or like being ripped off from other games (for example Port Olisar looks like Doom 3).
 

Backer42

B
Skizomeuh said:
By the way, about the magical 64bit keyword, did anyone try to test it? Like by reaching 2 QD POIs in cruise mode?
Click to expand...
Yes, it was tested months ago. Engine camera and avatar glitched out completely on the journey. So while believers celebrated the arrival at the destination POI, it wasn't actually a successful transport.

There is some theory, that it's still 32 bit with capital ships scaled down to matchbox size, so they fit into a 8 km "universe" map. All that glitching might happen, because your character has now the size of a single pixel in a regular Crysis map and the engine isn't made to work at this precision.
 
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f.zlim

F
Skizomeuh said:
By the way, about the magical 64bit keyword, did anyone try to test it? Like by reaching 2 QD POIs in cruise mode? Any way to reach the opposite side of a planet?
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Wut? Does it even have a full rendered planet in the first place?
As far as I know for broken moon, the planet in the background is half-rendered sphere. Wait i think much less than half.
 

Cynaqq

Cynaqq
f.zlim said:
Wut? Does it even have a full rendered planet in the first place?
As far as I know for broken moon, the planet in the background is half-rendered sphere. Wait i think much less than half.
Click to expand...

I always thought it was a baked sky texture. Is it an actual object, and not generated the same way ED generates its galactic backdrop?

Also for 64 bit precision... If they really shrunk everything so the whole map fits into the 8km total, that means the size of small things like a person is so small, you need many digits after the decimal point to differentiate between an arm and a head. No wonder everything gets warped into nightmare material and you die upon trying to get through a door.
 

f.zlim

F
Cynaqq said:
I always thought it was a baked sky texture. Is it an actual object, and not generated the same way ED generates its galactic backdrop?

Also for 64 bit precision... If they really shrunk everything so the whole map fits into the 8km total, that means the size of small things like a person is so small, you need many digits after the decimal point to differentiate between an arm and a head. No wonder everything gets warped into nightmare material and you die upon trying to get through a door.
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I don't know how to describe it, but the way you described it as baked sky texture pretty much sum it up. [big grin]

I thought they expand the map instead of shrinking it?

hey...it's after all an adulterated game engine...
 
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frostypaw

frostypaw
Three questions to the very-pro-SC guys here:

You keep mentioning the change to the mini-PU as special. Could you clear up for me how it's not just a different map? Local physics grids etc can exist on other levels, why do you believe this one is special other than size?
Secondly why do you believe 64-bit enables anything other than larger numbers? It too has been referred to as enabling local physics grids and the like, again these are unrelated to the number of bits of precision
And finally the claims that all that's needed for this planet is the Nyx landing zone and the rest will turn up magically out of PG - why do you believe when we've seen nothing other than a grey height map a long long time ago that we're suddenly going to have a whole interesting amazing planet with just one base when we've not seen them generate anything at all?

These beliefs are kinda exemplary of what's going on - good marketing. With a fancy name (mini-pu) and tech people don't understand (64-bit) they've been able to tell you it means more than it does. Hell remembering someone's cash amount and keybinds does not make a world persistent - this is such minor stuff and very old-hat but someone it's sold as if it was brand new

Then the PG when we've not even see a demo with a bunch of different horizons/skies/landscapes like you'd need to be able to do long long before fixing it enough to start integrating permanent assets..... doesn't anything inside you wonder where that demo is?
 

eminus

E
Backer42 said:
It's Duke Nukem Forever all over again.

Star Citizen looks like a mod for a 2009 game. It's outdated: the engine is outdated, the campaign concept is outdated, the story is outdated and Chris Roberts is outdated.

Even if the technical hurdles get solved, just like with DNF the game will still be outdated content-wise.


Also there is no real art direction, which is the reason, why all assets look just generic or like being ripped off from other games (for example Port Olisar looks like Doom 3).
Click to expand...

ohhh phuuuulleeaasseee!!

DNF looks like an amateur compared to SC in terms of turning a supposed to be good game into utter pile of dog poo.
 

Cynaqq

Cynaqq
f.zlim said:
I don't know how to describe it, but the way you described it as baked sky texture pretty much sum it up. [big grin]

I thought they expand the map instead of shrinking it?

hey...it's after all an adulterated game engine...
Click to expand...

They have to shrink everything so actual map size stays the same but everything fits in it, giving the impression of a much larger environment.

Think of it this way:

A 3d model is independent of the 3d realm a game engine virtually creates. It has constant and 'real' measurements in a sense. Therefore if you take a 3d cube, with undefined dimensions and place it in a game engine, it will default the unit length of your model into the default unit length of the engine however it's set for the particular game you are working on. So, let's say I made the model in 1m units, it's a building for example. The modelling software thinks every increment of 1 is a 1 meter distance. If I don't specifically say how it should be scaled, and the default of my game engine is in millimeters, then when imported the building will be 30mm high instead of 30m high.

So, if the maximum distance your engine can govern for a single map is 8km as set by the people creating the engine, they define 8km as what it would look like in real world measurements with real world size models. How do you fit something that looks like not 8 but 8000 km inside that virtual space? You divide all length measurements by 1000 so any 1m length will actually be 1mm as far as the game engine is concerned.

This means, the engine has to differentiate between 0.0003 and 0.0004 for a slightly moving arm instead of 0.3 and 0.4. This is what is meant by 64bit precision. The longer that chain of numbers, the more memory it requires to store them and make calculations on them. The faster and more reliably you can deal with these numbers, the more precise your engine becomes.
 

ianw

I
Cynaqq said:
They have to shrink everything so actual map size stays the same but everything fits in it, giving the impression of a much larger environment.

Think of it this way:

A 3d model is independent of the 3d realm a game engine virtually creates. It has constant and 'real' measurements in a sense. Therefore if you take a 3d cube, with undefined dimensions and place it in a game engine, it will default the unit length of your model into the default unit length of the engine however it's set for the particular game you are working on. So, let's say I made the model in 1m units, it's a building for example. The modelling software thinks every increment of 1 is a 1 meter distance. If I don't specifically say how it should be scaled, and the default of my game engine is in millimeters, then when imported the building will be 30mm high instead of 30m high.

So, if the maximum distance your engine can govern for a single map is 8km as set by the people creating the engine, they define 8km as what it would look like in real world measurements with real world size models. How do you fit something that looks like not 8 but 8000 km inside that virtual space? You divide all length measurements by 1000 so any 1m length will actually be 1mm as far as the game engine is concerned.

This means, the engine has to differentiate between 0.0003 and 0.0004 for a slightly moving arm instead of 0.3 and 0.4. This is what is meant by 64bit precision. The longer that chain of numbers, the more memory it requires to store them and make calculations on them. The faster and more reliably you can deal with these numbers, the more precise your engine becomes.
Click to expand...

I've seen this shrinking theory a few times - is anyone able to verify it (possibly a stupid question - but then I definitely don't understand game development).

Sort of reminds me of this...

Contains some swears at the end.. :D

[video=youtube;Pyh1Va_mYWI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pyh1Va_mYWI[/video]
 

Cynaqq

Cynaqq
ianw said:
I've seen this shrinking theory a few times - is anyone able to verify it (possibly a stupid question - but then I definitely don't understand game development).

Sort of reminds me of this...

Contains some swears at the end.. :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pyh1Va_mYWI
Click to expand...

I don't know if they in fact shrunk the models or not. I was just trying to explain a little how it works. It's not as simple as that of course, since virtual spaces can be as large as you want them to be. You just have to tweak and optimize the engine to efficiently use the computing resources to give out acceptable and reliable frame rates while showing everything you want it to show. Warping of models, collision detection errors and other similar problems directly relate to this positional precision with which the engine determines where everything are and how they look from the virtual camera you are looking through.
 

f.zlim

F
Cynaqq said:
They have to shrink everything so actual map size stays the same but everything fits in it, giving the impression of a much larger environment.

Think of it this way:

A 3d model is independent of the 3d realm a game engine virtually creates. It has constant and 'real' measurements in a sense. Therefore if you take a 3d cube, with undefined dimensions and place it in a game engine, it will default the unit length of your model into the default unit length of the engine however it's set for the particular game you are working on. So, let's say I made the model in 1m units, it's a building for example. The modelling software thinks every increment of 1 is a 1 meter distance. If I don't specifically say how it should be scaled, and the default of my game engine is in millimeters, then when imported the building will be 30mm high instead of 30m high.

So, if the maximum distance your engine can govern for a single map is 8km as set by the people creating the engine, they define 8km as what it would look like in real world measurements with real world size models. How do you fit something that looks like not 8 but 8000 km inside that virtual space? You divide all length measurements by 1000 so any 1m length will actually be 1mm as far as the game engine is concerned.

This means, the engine has to differentiate between 0.0003 and 0.0004 for a slightly moving arm instead of 0.3 and 0.4. This is what is meant by 64bit precision. The longer that chain of numbers, the more memory it requires to store them and make calculations on them. The faster and more reliably you can deal with these numbers, the more precise your engine becomes.
Click to expand...

I see what you mean. One of the better explanation I've seen so far.
And with all the millions of polys on the model moving together in that kind of precision...damn...no wonder all the issues in the baby pu.
Imagine they implement grabby hands later.
Hand grabs, the connie beside you goes KABOOM! That will be funny! LOL

FEEL THE POWER OF MY GRABBY HANDS!
 

darkoff

D
So heres roberts talking about AI

NCQBrlJ.png


Remember sq42 was supposed to be released before arena commander. Yet they are just finishing lock down of core feature. You just cant start programming game feature before you have locked down the said feature, because the requirements of ai might chance and nullify all the work that has been done.

It could also mean that previous lock down was unreachable. And that they would have needed to redesign the system again.

Either case is just plain crazy at this point of project. from 2012 to 2016 they haventh managed to lockdown the final design for AI. Thats shocking for product that has missed several launch dates.
 

Insignificant_The_Galaxy_Cat

Banned
I
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f.zlim

F
mrsanders said:
"That is a nice space-port you have there. Would be a shame if, say, i grabbed a few mm too far to the right and 'accidentaly' hurled it into the planet...."
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Damn you for moving your hands! That nice space-port that you just hurled into space didn't have LTI!
LOL! [wacky]
 
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