hi spook, i was a bit paranoid about starting a flame war here so thanks for your intelligent and informative response, hope i can hold up my side 
The guardian article is interesting but it only really shows that people in certain areas are very disenfranchised with politics. Perhaps these areas have missed the most out of being in the EU but that is a failure of Britain not the EU, needless to say the powers that be are in no hurry to bring this to their attention. Is it in any sense true that leaving the EU is going to make any change to 'the rich get richer and the poor stay poor'?
There are other breakdowns of the voting turn out which cast a different light on it (namely the now familiar 'baby boomers broke our future' and 'Scotland didn't vote this' arguments).
'I must have missed the good bits that outweigh the pain it continues to inflict there, yet still allows people to still see it as an organization on the side of ordinary people.'
i actually think this is the greatest mistake of the remain campaign, like most (mostly) sane people anywhere i am of the opinion that overpaid bureaucrats can go boil their heads. the benefit of the EU for me IS the benefits to ordinary people: namely the ability to travel and trade freely with my neighbours which i have taken full advantage of to MY benefit, not the eurocrats. This is a very real thing which we have given up. I'm not sure i would say the EU government is an organization on the side of ordinary people but i would say being in the EU is an awesome opportunity for ordinary people. Ordinary people all across Europe are on the side of other ordinary people.
however: 'Workers rights are only any good if you're actually working, yet we see a generation of youth sacrificed on the altar of European Integration.' hmm a good point, EU is flawed and not invincible for sure and is under a lot of strain in these troubled times, but again the problems of greece are not the fault of the EU, paying more tax might have helped a bit
it doesn't help that most people in UK i've met who speak of the 'pain' of the EU have too often been dictated their opinions by Nigal Farage/Rupert Murdoch et al and usually have no actual personal experience or knowledge of said 'pain'. The amount of people who asked me angrily 'do you know how much being in the EU costs us?' and didn't actually know the answer themselves (or indeed that other countries were paying more) pretty much sums it up. In fact i'm not sure pain is the right word, frustration, boredom, needless expense maybe but pain? Its hard to get a clear opinion of the impact of the EU when it has been the nations most popular scapegoat for years.
'As for the right wing/left wing stuff. I suspect the referendum vote transcended the traditional political boundaries.' i'm not sure about this; look i'm not a rabid remainer but the leave campaign is firmly connected in my head with the right wing. we voted out of the EU because 'foreigners OUT!'. anything else was just window dressing. Ever seen 'children of men'? i'm worried thats were we're going! I hope i'm wrong on this one.
'If, at some stage in the future the people of Scotland decide to travel their own path, then I can only speak for myself in that I would wish you god speed and good luck.' its probebly going to be another referendum but i'm not convinced it would be the resounding 'aye' the Sturgeon is hoping for, no EU and no UK is alot of uncertainty to get behind, good luck would be pretty much it...
cheers
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hi spook, i was a bit paranoid about starting a flame war here so thanks for your intelligent and informative response, hope i can hold up my side
The guardian article is interesting but it only really shows that people in certain areas are very disenfranchised with politics. Perhaps these areas have missed the most out of being in the EU but that is a failure of Britain not the EU, needless to say the powers that be are in no hurry to bring this to their attention. Is it in any sense true that leaving the EU is going to make any change to 'the rich get richer and the poor stay poor'?
There are other breakdowns of the voting turn out which cast a different light on it (namely the now familiar 'baby boomers broke our future' and 'Scotland didn't vote this' arguments).
'I must have missed the good bits that outweigh the pain it continues to inflict there, yet still allows people to still see it as an organization on the side of ordinary people.'
i actually think this is the greatest mistake of the remain campaign, like most (mostly) sane people anywhere i am of the opinion that overpaid bureaucrats can go boil their heads. the benefit of the EU for me IS the benefits to ordinary people: namely the ability to travel and trade freely with my neighbours which i have taken full advantage of to MY benefit, not the eurocrats. This is a very real thing which we have given up. I'm not sure i would say the EU government is an organization on the side of ordinary people but i would say being in the EU is an awesome opportunity for ordinary people. Ordinary people all across Europe are on the side of other ordinary people.
however: 'Workers rights are only any good if you're actually working, yet we see a generation of youth sacrificed on the altar of European Integration.' hmm a good point, EU is flawed and not invincible for sure and is under a lot of strain in these troubled times, but again the problems of greece are not the fault of the EU, paying more tax might have helped a bit
it doesn't help that most people in UK i've met who speak of the 'pain' of the EU have too often been dictated their opinions by Nigal Farage/Rupert Murdoch et al and usually have no actual personal experience or knowledge of said 'pain'. The amount of people who asked me angrily 'do you know how much being in the EU costs us?' and didn't actually know the answer themselves (or indeed that other countries were paying more) pretty much sums it up. In fact i'm not sure pain is the right word, frustration, boredom, needless expense maybe but pain? Its hard to get a clear opinion of the impact of the EU when it has been the nations most popular scapegoat for years.
'As for the right wing/left wing stuff. I suspect the referendum vote transcended the traditional political boundaries.' i'm not sure about this; look i'm not a rabid remainer but the leave campaign is firmly connected in my head with the right wing. we voted out of the EU because 'foreigners OUT!'. anything else was just window dressing. Ever seen 'children of men'? i'm worried thats were we're going! I hope i'm wrong on this one.
'If, at some stage in the future the people of Scotland decide to travel their own path, then I can only speak for myself in that I would wish you god speed and good luck.' its probebly going to be another referendum but i'm not convinced it would be the resounding 'aye' the Sturgeon is hoping for, no EU and no UK is alot of uncertainty to get behind, good luck would be pretty much it...
cheers
The guardian article is interesting but it only really shows that people in certain areas are very disenfranchised with politics. Perhaps these areas have missed the most out of being in the EU but that is a failure of Britain not the EU, needless to say the powers that be are in no hurry to bring this to their attention. Is it in any sense true that leaving the EU is going to make any change to 'the rich get richer and the poor stay poor'?
There are other breakdowns of the voting turn out which cast a different light on it (namely the now familiar 'baby boomers broke our future' and 'Scotland didn't vote this' arguments).
'I must have missed the good bits that outweigh the pain it continues to inflict there, yet still allows people to still see it as an organization on the side of ordinary people.'
i actually think this is the greatest mistake of the remain campaign, like most (mostly) sane people anywhere i am of the opinion that overpaid bureaucrats can go boil their heads. the benefit of the EU for me IS the benefits to ordinary people: namely the ability to travel and trade freely with my neighbours which i have taken full advantage of to MY benefit, not the eurocrats. This is a very real thing which we have given up. I'm not sure i would say the EU government is an organization on the side of ordinary people but i would say being in the EU is an awesome opportunity for ordinary people. Ordinary people all across Europe are on the side of other ordinary people.
however: 'Workers rights are only any good if you're actually working, yet we see a generation of youth sacrificed on the altar of European Integration.' hmm a good point, EU is flawed and not invincible for sure and is under a lot of strain in these troubled times, but again the problems of greece are not the fault of the EU, paying more tax might have helped a bit
it doesn't help that most people in UK i've met who speak of the 'pain' of the EU have too often been dictated their opinions by Nigal Farage/Rupert Murdoch et al and usually have no actual personal experience or knowledge of said 'pain'. The amount of people who asked me angrily 'do you know how much being in the EU costs us?' and didn't actually know the answer themselves (or indeed that other countries were paying more) pretty much sums it up. In fact i'm not sure pain is the right word, frustration, boredom, needless expense maybe but pain? Its hard to get a clear opinion of the impact of the EU when it has been the nations most popular scapegoat for years.
'As for the right wing/left wing stuff. I suspect the referendum vote transcended the traditional political boundaries.' i'm not sure about this; look i'm not a rabid remainer but the leave campaign is firmly connected in my head with the right wing. we voted out of the EU because 'foreigners OUT!'. anything else was just window dressing. Ever seen 'children of men'? i'm worried thats were we're going! I hope i'm wrong on this one.
'If, at some stage in the future the people of Scotland decide to travel their own path, then I can only speak for myself in that I would wish you god speed and good luck.' its probebly going to be another referendum but i'm not convinced it would be the resounding 'aye' the Sturgeon is hoping for, no EU and no UK is alot of uncertainty to get behind, good luck would be pretty much it...
cheers
- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -
hi spook, i was a bit paranoid about starting a flame war here so thanks for your intelligent and informative response, hope i can hold up my side
The guardian article is interesting but it only really shows that people in certain areas are very disenfranchised with politics. Perhaps these areas have missed the most out of being in the EU but that is a failure of Britain not the EU, needless to say the powers that be are in no hurry to bring this to their attention. Is it in any sense true that leaving the EU is going to make any change to 'the rich get richer and the poor stay poor'?
There are other breakdowns of the voting turn out which cast a different light on it (namely the now familiar 'baby boomers broke our future' and 'Scotland didn't vote this' arguments).
'I must have missed the good bits that outweigh the pain it continues to inflict there, yet still allows people to still see it as an organization on the side of ordinary people.'
i actually think this is the greatest mistake of the remain campaign, like most (mostly) sane people anywhere i am of the opinion that overpaid bureaucrats can go boil their heads. the benefit of the EU for me IS the benefits to ordinary people: namely the ability to travel and trade freely with my neighbours which i have taken full advantage of to MY benefit, not the eurocrats. This is a very real thing which we have given up. I'm not sure i would say the EU government is an organization on the side of ordinary people but i would say being in the EU is an awesome opportunity for ordinary people. Ordinary people all across Europe are on the side of other ordinary people.
however: 'Workers rights are only any good if you're actually working, yet we see a generation of youth sacrificed on the altar of European Integration.' hmm a good point, EU is flawed and not invincible for sure and is under a lot of strain in these troubled times, but again the problems of greece are not the fault of the EU, paying more tax might have helped a bit
it doesn't help that most people in UK i've met who speak of the 'pain' of the EU have too often been dictated their opinions by Nigal Farage/Rupert Murdoch et al and usually have no actual personal experience or knowledge of said 'pain'. The amount of people who asked me angrily 'do you know how much being in the EU costs us?' and didn't actually know the answer themselves (or indeed that other countries were paying more) pretty much sums it up. In fact i'm not sure pain is the right word, frustration, boredom, needless expense maybe but pain? Its hard to get a clear opinion of the impact of the EU when it has been the nations most popular scapegoat for years.
'As for the right wing/left wing stuff. I suspect the referendum vote transcended the traditional political boundaries.' i'm not sure about this; look i'm not a rabid remainer but the leave campaign is firmly connected in my head with the right wing. we voted out of the EU because 'foreigners OUT!'. anything else was just window dressing. Ever seen 'children of men'? i'm worried thats were we're going! I hope i'm wrong on this one.
'If, at some stage in the future the people of Scotland decide to travel their own path, then I can only speak for myself in that I would wish you god speed and good luck.' its probebly going to be another referendum but i'm not convinced it would be the resounding 'aye' the Sturgeon is hoping for, no EU and no UK is alot of uncertainty to get behind, good luck would be pretty much it...
cheers
