Is the lack of real content why FD have sacrificed galactic scale?

[CptXabaras]

When i saw the thread i thought it was just another complain thread.... i was wrong.. I still love the game and will continue playing it but your post... OP i got your point and it is really clear... someone at FD should read this kind of thread and rethink their development path.. have some rep meanwhile.

 

[OriginalBadBoy]

wrong. Because the journey to get there should be fun. That's what is missing. if it takes 100 hours then it takes 100 hours. That's fine. but it should be 100 hours of more than just waiting for the load screen to the next system repeated 1000 times with nothing between the next load screen. Unrealistic elements aren't needed to circumvent the time it takes. Time is integral to the scale.

But for the entire journey to be 'fun' you would need content all the way on your 100 hour trip, which goes back to my original post about filling a galaxy with gameplay being unrealistic (to some players). If you fill the entire galaxy with things to do at every system , people will call that unrealistic arcadey and not DB's original 'vision'. and so on.

In other words FD cant win.

Also you missed the point which was that people are not going to spend 100 hours going to the other side of the galaxy for something that might be temporary (for example a CG), or a major piece of gameplay, regardless of the 'fun' they might have on the way.

 

[Dillontheman]

Ever think that CapShip docks can be used for actual gameplay in the future, but one step is getting the assets in game?

I would like to think so, but so far we have no suggestions as to what that might be while still having in game features that havent been fleshed out. I usually give FD the benefit of the doubt but this just feels misguided or in the wrong timeframe to be released

 

[Marc_Hicks]

Here is the issue, in a nutshell.

If FD add a lot of content all over the galaxy then people will say its unrealisitc.

If FD don't then people say the game has no depth and there is nothing to do.

It goes deeper than that though, as if they do start adding more and more remote stuff going on in the galaxy, they then need to add gameplay mechanics to get people around the galaxy quicker. And then of course people lose their **** over that as well ,and you get the 'I quit' 'This game sucks' 'Frontier have ruined my life' posts.

In other words no matter what FD do they simply cannot win.

Not at all. People objected to loads of human space junk being scattered around the galaxy (outside of the bubble), but that doesn't mean you can't add lots of *believable* content to the game. The addition of Active Geology definitely helps in that regard, & Braben also mentioned Alien Archaeology-which would also be great. Changes to the visual appearance of Neutron Stars and White Dwarfs-& how we can interact with them-are also a big plus.

With that in mind, they could also add things like comets, meteors & all kinds of *believable* spatial anomalies to the game too.

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I would like to think so, but so far we have no suggestions as to what that might be while still having in game features that havent been fleshed out. I usually give FD the benefit of the doubt but this just feels misguided or in the wrong timeframe to be released

It is easier to add game-play to assets that already exist "in game", than trying to add it all at the same time.

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But for the entire journey to be 'fun' you would need content all the way on your 100 hour trip, which goes back to my original post about filling a galaxy with gameplay being unrealistic (to some players). If you fill the entire galaxy with things to do at every system , people will call that unrealistic arcadey and not DB's original 'vision'. and so on.

In other words FD cant win.

Also you missed the point which was that people are not going to spend 100 hours going to the other side of the galaxy for something that might be temporary (for example a CG), or a major piece of gameplay, regardless of the 'fun' they might have on the way.

So you'd need every hour of that 100 hour journey to be fun? Remind me never to go on a Road Trip with you

 

[cheesenbiscuits]

The elephant in the room is,if you really hate it that much don't use it.
You can still go and fetch your ships if you feel it too immersion breaking.
The min/max crowd will use exploration builds to rip around the galaxy,then jump into A rated battle ready ships,and best if luck to them,i hope they find what they're looking for in a game.
But that is not the game.

 

[Flin]

The elephant in the room is,if you really hate it that much don't use it.
You can still go and fetch your ships if you feel it too immersion breaking.
The min/max crowd will use exploration builds to rip around the galaxy,then jump into A rated battle ready ships,and best if luck to them,i hope they find what they're looking for in a game.
But that is not the game.

This thread is not about the feature. It's about the basis or background reasons on why this feature was selected and to be implemented.

You can argue the same for an instant win button and tell people you don't have to use it if you don't want to. However, the presence of it infers what kind of game design is being applied.


Whether or not there is an elder or end game or win conditions with features to get players to that state or condition depends on what kind of experience the designers create.

Instant ship transport infers a bypass of any gameplay related to ship management or any meaningful activities around transport management.

It's fine if this is where the design is going, but as OP suggested, my take is that they have decided to skip certain type of content and I am sadden by the decision.

Sure, they can built the content out such that this feature is less utilize. So, I have no problems using the feature nor anyone else's decision to use it as long as they manage any exploits, game balance, and meta concerns appropriately.

I had hope there would be gameplay around finding new space lanes, jump routes, and methods to shorten travel time, but that doesn't look like in the cards when you have jump range inflation and features to skip all that.

 

[CTCParadox]

I think FDev really just need to link all this stuff together.

Trading, Mining, Powerplay, Sythesis/Enginering, Exploration, Planetary Landing, CQC/Arena.
Each one feels like it's own container minigame, they need to bleed into each other more.

- Regular commodities for crafting/synthesis, maybe need computer components to repair modules etc.
- Exploration stuff to do on planets (maybe in 2.2 by the sounds of it).
- Put CQC in the station menus so I can join from there.
- Use regular commodities for powerplay not a specific new set

CMDR CTCParadox

 

[dynamicbob]

as always they move slow , i expect a lot of hidden goodies to find in 2.2

 

[obliterator]

Sadly that does seem to be the way it's going...
I saw a post ealier that summed it up for me. Basically they are removing the game mechanic because the "instant gratification" crowd feel it gets in the way of play. That's not a game I want to see Elite become. The world is full of FPS games for that crowd, leave us our corner of complex gaming that we can enjoy...

Being time consuming does not mean being complex.
Removing trivial tasks from the game does not mean instant gratification.

 

[Darth Ender]

But for the entire journey to be 'fun' you would need content all the way on your 100 hour trip, which goes back to my original post about filling a galaxy with gameplay being unrealistic (to some players). If you fill the entire galaxy with things to do at every system , people will call that unrealistic arcadey and not DB's original 'vision'. and so on.

In other words FD cant win.

Also you missed the point which was that people are not going to spend 100 hours going to the other side of the galaxy for something that might be temporary (for example a CG), or a major piece of gameplay, regardless of the 'fun' they might have on the way.

Don't mistake fun for civilization content... Or even obstacles. The entire jump mechanic is devoid of any player skill or interaction. Fixing that will go a long way toward making travel fun

 

[m0rl0ck]

Sadly that does seem to be the way it's going...
I saw a post ealier that summed it up for me. Basically they are removing the game mechanic because the "instant gratification" crowd feel it gets in the way of play. That's not a game I want to see Elite become. The world is full of FPS games for that crowd, leave us our corner of complex gaming that we can enjoy...

Yeah the laughable thing is that they seem to be basing the game around a crowd who doesnt have time to play it. The changes wont give anyone any more time and those bad at managing their time will still be bad at it when ED is broken in an attempt to engage their short attention spans.

 

[dynamicbob]

Yeah the laughable thing is that they seem to be basing the game around a crowd who doesnt have time to play it. The changes wont give anyone any more time and those bad at managing their time will still be bad at it when ED is broken in an attempt to engage their short attention spans.

i think using neturons and white dwarves as fsd accelerators and more jumponium available sources might be a good way forward

 

[foebits]

Great. Thanks for sharing that, because you better believe that idea never crossed my mind. Now ED can pander to casuals who love to play mini games instead of purists who loved the game for it's immense sense of scale.

Haha, you think you're special? Drop the "casuals" excuse and open your eyes and stop being an elitist tool. "Purists" my a.s.s, You're just butthurt because it didn't happen the way you like it and you have no reasons to back your sad excuses up.

If you were such a purist you wouldn't be sitting idle about the RNGineers, or the 3d printed fighters, or the telepresence, or the weak "warships", or any number of other issues. So drop your .

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I'm not sure what it will take to bring me back. I've lost a lot of trust in FD or particularly the person who's decision it was that insta gratification trumps the core of what elite is all about. There would have to be a shift back to simulation and at least obeying the rules they set in their own universe. The instant travel is just the last straw for me in a long line of gamey crap like RNGineers, synthesis, magic pouches of materials without mass and Mario cart scooping SRVs. I'll keep an eye on the forums but that's about it for now.

Amen bro.

 

[Ozram]

I've had some great experiences in ED. Starting out in the sidewinder and just making the trek to get to my Freagle and slowly figuring out what to do, trading about later on, in a Hauler was awesome. I didn't even engage in combat the first month or two. I remember getting a viper and that thing was so mean and unique compared to what I had before. The cost of fuel went up. The cost of repairs. I had to really think about what I was doing. Eventually I got to a Cobra and wow! I stayed in that baby for a long time. Remember how long it took to earn that first million way back in Beta? It was nice to have the ship you were in be worth something to you. I still have my original MK3 (and now 11 other ships to go with it). The difficulty in scratching a "living" and getting ahead was a serious part of the game. Then came the ease of acquisitions and the lowering of maintenance costs and now, after engineers, a full pay to win model with promises of casualization largely nullifying 1:1 scale and everything else. Remember when eventually getting something like a Python felt like an accomplishment? Meh, this game is committing suicide thanks to desperation and bean counting. Once they realise their mistake and the casualis crowd never comes, the one that is already here leaves, and those of us who bought into Braben's babbles move on they will have nothing. At this rate Elite: Dangerous fails inside of the next two years.

 

[foebits]

I think its easy to say, there needs to be more local content. The issue though, is of course making it. Frontier is not an AAA publishing house, for good and bad. Because its not, its taken a risk and produced a game genre that was not in fashion. It blazed its own trail. This has been the positive side of the Kickstarter -> Game model.

The downside is, they are not using the profit from a previous hit game, to power a new version of that franchise. Frontier is not Fallout 4

And Fallout 4 is a good analogy for another reason.

Fallout 4 had a very large map, and on that map were a number of hand crafted locations that made that game feel VERY entertaining. It had smaller locations like bombed out houses, through to towns, factories, military bases and so on. Fallout 4 followed that path, and added crafting, pretty much keeping the same engine though.

Bethesda has benefitted from many years of churning out games in the Fantasy setting and SCIFI setting, using this same engine, and basic game model. An open world environment with hand crafted environments. And they did this with increasing budget per generation based on profits from previous generations of game.

Elite Dangerous has been built from the ground up. Im sure the team existed to a large degree. BUT, it was certainly tiny compared to the Bethesda team on Fallout 4, and its budget has been tiny again in comparison. And yet many expect to fly to SOL and see a hand crafted SOLAR SYSTEM!!!!!!, and the same for Alpha Centauri, etc etc etc.

Its just not realistic.

However, I would also say, this is still something players would like to at least see a whiff of. Think about Jaques Station. Why is it such a good idea in ED? Well, for one, its the first station that has some defined character about it. Its not JUST procedural i.e. a bunch of model parts assembled together and give a procedural name. It has a back story, and that starts to make the game feel alive.

Lets look at some of the new features in 2.2.

You now have these CQC models being brought in as locations. GREAT, I hope these are hand placed, to some degree at least, and give a back story. They should, ideally be hand "set dressed" to make them feel as unique as possible. And this extension of these persistent, and more unique locations is REALLY what ED needs.

Frontier also added Capital ship docks, and immediately people asked,"What are these for?" Well, they are both new locations to visit AND they are set dressing. If you arrive at a military station, near a Federation center, then you can expect to see these docks, both with ships in and vacant.

I'd love to see a lot more along these lines. Lets see some locations where these ships can be seen part assembled. That would be epic. I'd love to see a class of ships between Anaconda and Capital ship size. These could be commercial and even super large passenger ships. These would bot be able to dock IN a station, but instead would dock on a frame, near a station, and would use smaller craft to ferry goods, crew and passengers into a station, and down onto a planet surface. These ships would not be playable, but would be used as set dressing in MANY locations, procedurally, to really make space ports into much more complex and vibrant locations. The station would be the center, but these ships and docks surrounding it + ferries would really make these locations come to life.

and, to be fair, this IS where Frontier is heading, generally I mean. They KNOW their game feels dead. They have this entire UNIVERSE to fill, and they have limited resources to do it with. So, its taking time.

But for me, what Frontier has to start doing, as it makes these assets, is to produce one or two, maybe three hand crafted location PER point release. Pick their battles and do these for locations that just make the most sense at first, such as SOL, the Federation, Empire and Alliance capitals. Then as budget allow, ramp up this team to tackle a wider range of locations. Produce stations that are based around racing, at stations were CQC takes place, some kind of ships graveyard, where some kind of mega battle took place. Maybe a system with a n earth type planet that was recently hit by its moon. UNIQUE locations that people can visit and give a feeling that the Universe back story really is happening.

Another idea, would be events. In Elite you got a special cargo that turned out to be Tribbles (see original Star Treck). Why has this kind of fun/pain be skipped in ED? these kind of events, i.e. odd cargo, that turns out to have a plague, or some kind of machinery that turns out to cause random jump freak outs. There are MANY possibilities here. Events that might only happen to VERY few players, like seeing a Generation Ship. This would lend to the fun aspect of the game, and add some curve balls.

But yes, I guess all of this would take time.

BTW, lets put this in perspective eh. In the 90's I worked for a company called the Bitmap Brothers, on a game Z. When I joined the team, the game had been in development for about 2 years already, as I recall. By the time I left, it had just been released and it was two years later.

So, 4 years, for a relatively simple real time strategy game. Frontier have been working on this game now, for what, 3 years? And so, we are seeing a lot of its development in public. And it takes time. But they are working hard, and they ARE delivering I think. I guess we just need to keep on buying paint jobs, mugs and whatnot, and hope for new players as well.

Only time and continued ££$£$ will allow Frontier to deliver on the final vision D Braben has in mind. Which I'd guess is being able to wander your ship, leave it, and visit any location, which would include Earth like planets, with cities etc.

You put a lot back into perspective that even people such as myself have forgotten. For better or worse what you say is largely true, but it still doesn't excuse the fact that they keep failing on features and fixes. Do I particularly care about instant VS timed ship transfers? No. I'd rather they dropped this nonsense with the fighters all together in favor of fixing what's already there since they've announced that the fighters are going to be less than lackluster in implementation.

 

[Dbrn47]

Not at all. People objected to loads of human space junk being scattered around the galaxy (outside of the bubble), but that doesn't mean you can't add lots of *believable* content to the game. The addition of Active Geology definitely helps in that regard, & Braben also mentioned Alien Archaeology-which would also be great. Changes to the visual appearance of Neutron Stars and White Dwarfs-& how we can interact with them-are also a big plus.

With that in mind, they could also add things like comets, meteors & all kinds of *believable* spatial anomalies to the game too.

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It is easier to add game-play to assets that already exist "in game", than trying to add it all at the same time.

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So you'd need every hour of that 100 hour journey to be fun? Remind me never to go on a Road Trip with you

Adding more things to take screenshots of will not make me visit various parts of the galaxy. Scan-able anomalies, alien relics, wormholes, maybe super rare and valuable materials... Idk man.. I completely avoid exploring because the people that enjoy current exploring have deemed it to only be about taking screenshots of the same 20 stellar body models from different angles.. It's absolutely boring to me, so I don't do it of course and probably won't ever reach Elite in it. "Believeable" isn't always fun in a video game.

 

[Damocles]

The way No Mans Sky is going, I doubt you will be able to say it won against Elite (whatever that means). NMS has been a huge disaster and disappointed most people that bought it.

http://gamerant.com/no-mans-sky-players-drop/

 

[Ozram]

The way No Mans Sky is going, I doubt you will be able to say it won against Elite (whatever that means). NMS has been a huge disaster and disappointed most people that bought it.

http://gamerant.com/no-mans-sky-players-drop/

Really sorry to hear that. I hope the rise of the space sim hasn't been killed off before it really had a chance to get started.

 

[hood1]

The way No Mans Sky is going, I doubt you will be able to say it won against Elite (whatever that means). NMS has been a huge disaster and disappointed most people that bought it.

NMS is still selling very well indeed.

Recent approx. daily Steam sales of NMS: 10,000.
Recent approx. daily Steam sales of ED: 700.

Yes, only seven hundred. Despite beign on offer at half the price of NMS..

However, it is early days for NMS and we'll have to see how it fares with the first major update.

 

[BostromNZ]

NMS is still selling very well indeed.

Recent approx. daily Steam sales of NMS: 10,000.
Recent approx. daily Steam sales of ED: 700.

Yes, only seven hundred. Despite beign on offer at half the price of NMS..

However, it is early days for NMS and we'll have to see how it fares with the first major update.

I think a two year old game that's selling 700 copies a day is pretty good. It will be interesting to see how many copies NMS is selling two years from now.