I don't mind the idea of a ship carrier all that much either as long as it takes a sufficiently long enough time to not imbalance the game as drastically as instantaneous ship transfers would.
Last edited:
Should ship transfers have a time delay or not?
- Thread starter WR3ND
- Start date
- Status
I don't mind the idea of a ship carrier all that much either as long as it takes a sufficiently long enough time to not imbalance the game as drastically as instantaneous ship transfers would.
I don;t see any imbalance to instant ship transfer. Every Commander will have equal access. Balance is assured.
Well then we are going to have to agree to disagree, lore and something that makes sense matters to me, as it does to others. To a large extent if you discount a games history and it's lore then it does just become <insert generic title here>. It loses it's identity, it's rules and it's life blood. Elite, from it's very first incarnation was different, as a fan of the original, of FE2, of FFE am I simply meant to lay down and accept that none of that mattered? Was I wrong to expect Frontier Developments to hold true to the galactic rules they gave me? You obviously hold no interest in this games history and lore, if for you gameplay trumps everything then so be it, if for you 'lore' is a dirty word, more power to you but I cannot and will not brush a franchise and IP I adore under the carpet for 'fun and gameplay' at any cost.
Last edited:
I'm talking about gameplay and ship balance, not player balance. Though there may be somewhat of an additional imbalance issue between newbies with less credits that can't as easily poof in as capable ships and those who can, compounding the difference.
Ok, let's disagree about the lore aspect of this discussion. Then I would like you to answer the underlying question. Why is one arbitrary number better than another? Why is wedging in a 75% of flight time delay better than a 0% delay, once one starts fudging number?
Again, really? - because it is explainable in lore, it is explainable in story, it holds true, or at least partially true to Elite's galactic constants. From a gameplay point of view, (as that interests you), a delay can be built upon, player escorts, npc escorts, player missions to attack transporting ships, npc transporters earning their wings and becoming wingmen for our ship launched fighters. Instant offers none of that, it cannot be build upon, it cannot be explained and it brings nothing to the table except instant gratification.
Last edited:
There would be no more imbalance between Commanders with this feature, than there is now. The only difference would be where the current imbalance would be in space. The price of tranferal has been mentioned to take the cost of the ship, and the distance into effect. It should stand to reason that if one can afford an Adder, then one can afford to transport it around. Adding a delay would not make it less expensive or accessible to newish players. The balance is inherent, as everyone has equal access.
- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -
My point is, once you have to make excuses, make excuses for the best possible benefit. One fudge is as good as another when it's not the kind you eat. There is no indication that ship transfer will expand beyond something that happens behind the scenes. That is why it is just as good to be instant, than with a token delay. If my ship is under threat, I want to be the one in it.
- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -
Once you have to rationalize, you might as go all the way and let the feature best suit it's purpose. I could get along with a 1 to 1 delay. I'm pretty loose about these things. I just don;t see a need to use a token delay to affect usefulness. Once you have to make up a story. Make up a good one that squeezes the most out of the feature.
Last edited:
But why shouldn't it be expanded on? - it makes for a deeper, richer galaxy, it adds depth and meaning to ship transfers, is that not a good thing? It is only like that because Frontier have decided to take the cheapest, nastiest option on ship transfer, would you not like it to be meaningful and be able to interact with it?
For me the 'best benefit' is a galaxy I can believe in, a mechanic that can be built upon, expanded, made richer.
Last edited:
For me, it's because I see no game value in having my unattended (by me) ship put into jeopardy. To me, this game is about the Commander piloting his ship, not about simulating reality. What game play is there in NPC's randomly attacking my NPC ship transporter? Letting the NPC's have some revenge?
That is an extreme example, instead think of yourself as an escort for a ship, or attacking one, think of an NPC you foster from ship transport pilot to elite wingman. you get none of that with instant transfer and you never will, because once it is in that's it, game over.
For mine, the problem is that ship transfer, and in particular INSTANT ship transfer, significantly changes the way groups can concentrate forces, and not necessarily in a good way. Up to now, with no ship transfer, groups have to plan, coordinate and go to some effort in order to exert their collective influence on anything, be that dominating a system, swamping a CG, ganking noobs in starter systems etc - simply because of the travel required in order to concentrate their forces.
Ship transfer, with a delay commensurate with actual travel time if the player conducted the transfer personally, in and of itself would have significantly changed the way such groups could concentrate forces as it is. It would be improved, but would still take some planning and coordination on the part of such groups. And any players in the affected systems, if they picked up on the force concentration soon enough (by noticing the increased traffic and appearance of certain vessel types and groups), would still have time to 'get outta dodge', whether that be shifting system or play mode.
Now, however, with instant ship transfer, groups will be able to concentrate forces far quicker that the galaxy size and travel distances should allow - simply travel in their long range taxis and then hey presto they have their whole fleet at their disposal. And before other players even know what's going on, they face an armada that should actually have taken some time to concentrate. I fear that Frontier have made a snap call on instant transfer for the sake of something like CG participation but have neglected to consider how this will be used by various groups to exert dominance over others like never before. Ship transfer alone, with a delay, would have changed that dynamic anyway, but instant ship transfer, I fear, will go too far. If anything it will shift the balance of power in favour of groups that want to (unrealistically) quickly seek to dominate systems and CGs and the like with a minimum of coordination and effort compared to what they have to do at present. And what will the result of that be? Even more players leaving open, I fear, because the balance will have shifted further away from what the heart of Elite has always been - a lone pilot in his ship, trying to make his way in the galaxy and survive.
That's where I see the balance issue being - the way in which instant ship transfer dramatically affects force concentration beyond what simple ship transfer (with a delay) would have done.
We don;t need ship transfer to foster our NPC pilots. We can have other ways of bringing them up through the ranks, like through the fighter mechanism. Not having those aspects as part of the transfer mechanic, doesn't preclude them from the game. My point is, if the feature is purely for the benefit of experiencing the game's content, why not let it be as effective as it can be. If it's going to be part of general game play, let it follow the current flight model. One or the other. In between is just a farce.
- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -
Force 'A' will be just as able to move forces as and Force 'B' would be. Once the power is available to everyone, any benefit, not already part of the scenario, would be wiped away. If gankers are swamping a CG, the avenger could just as easily amass for the defence. A delay would just delay it, not stop it. A delay to the gankers would also affect the avengers. It's inherent balance.
Assuming that one player group is going to concentrate forces to combat another in every instance. Which ain't going to happen. You're still missing the point that it's not the force concentration that's the issue in terms of balance (even delayed ship transfer will still achieve that), it's the fact that the force concentration will be instantaneous, which is ridiculous and actually detracts from the potential strategy aspects of group play. Imagine how much more dynamic the ebb and flow of dominance of a system or CG would be if two groups fighting for control of a system (or even a PvP engagement) had to allow for the travel time of reinforcements. However, with instant transfer, that strategy goes out the window before it even begins. Yes, it's technically balanced for both sides as both have access to the instant transfer - but as I said, the balance issue is actually in it being instant - it unbalances the whole point of having a 1:1 galaxy in the first place - it conflicts with the very premise that it should take time to concentrate forces simply because of the galaxy size and distances to travel. The fact that all players have equal access doesn't alter that particular imbalance.... that contradiction.... in the resultant game design.
No it's not. You either hold developers and IP's up to higher standards or you don't. It's uniform. You either do the job properly or you don't do it at all. If you're picking and choosing which bits of the menu you think suits you and letting the developers slide when they put junk into the game you can overlook because "Hey, it's not my problem" then you're hypocritical and frankly you lost your right to complain at that point.
This is why this whole threadnaught, and all of the associated mess amuses me so much. If the forum had been consistent then I'd be right on the lines with you, but you haven't, so I don't give a damn.
This is the thing. Braben is supposedly not at all responsible for this "mess" and it's all that cowboy's fault. Only it isn't. Right from the beginning, concessions were made because they had to be. And DBOBE signed off on all of them. It's not Sandro's fault, folks. The entire dev team is behind these changes. Telling them they are 'the suck' is a great way of garnering support on any changes.
So the notion we can suddenly draw a line here, and no further! (you broke your little ships?) is laughable given mystical materials that can double jump range or we can manufacture ammunition (but not heat sinks) and so on. Never mind all the other concessions made to make the commanders life more about experience and less about management.
The game is chock full of inconsistency and the thing everyone is losing their collective mind over is simple ship management, of all things.
Braben and the team didn't build the game to be a fleet management tool set. They bought it for people to experience the universe and all the cool crap in it. I can't do that if half my time is wrangling ships.
I honestly was dead against this. Absolutely. Holy crap instant travel we're not even trying now. And then I sat down and worked out how often I moved stuff, or how often I didn't do something because of the effort required to move stuff.
You know? It was a lot of time. Sure, if I had one or two ships then it's trivial. But I have many and wrangling ships has become just a pain in the butt. Dude (ma'am?) I am with you on this one at this point. Arguably it's already too late to ensure consistency across all aspects of ED.
So we have thread after thread of people desperate to stuff the genie back into the bottle.
Last edited:
A fuzzy tiger scorned...
For the record, I'm not a fan of the casino like elements of the Engineers at all either, and did my best to make a civilized stink about it. Frontier did make some concessions, but didn't move away from the fundamentals. I generally avoid messing with the materials and things like fuel rocks and jumponium. The difficulty in getting upgrades weren't the issue for me.
Either way though, people have different opinions and preferences about these things, so we don't all have the same standards as each other to be able to hold Frontier to.
On the forums here at least, there does seem to be a fairly obvious general overall preference regarding this future feature. Not sure what good it'll do though.
- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -
I'm not sure who all are actually blaming Sandy. Either way, it's been covered in this thread, and Michael Brookes did point out that Sandy was actually an advocate for ship transfer time delays, but of course eventually agreed with the others at Frontier that instantaneous ship transfer was the best way forward to be able to easily accomplish what they were trying to do for a minor QoL game improvident, as they put it.
Last edited:
Nobody here is arguing against ship transfers entirely. I'm even fine with people ordering their entire fleet to move at once, without having to be present at the starting point nor the destination. You could move an entire fleet, entirely remotely, in one go like in X3: Terran Conflict, and it'd be fine. So what I'm asking for here is actually hugely convenient.
As long as the movement itself took a reasonable time, based on the distance and the ship's jump capability.
- Status