Should ship transfers have a time delay or not?

[bitstorm]

For mine, the problem is that ship transfer, and in particular INSTANT ship transfer, significantly changes the way groups can concentrate forces, and not necessarily in a good way. Up to now, with no ship transfer, groups have to plan, coordinate and go to some effort in order to exert their collective influence on anything, be that dominating a system, swamping a CG, ganking noobs in starter systems etc - simply because of the travel required in order to concentrate their forces.

Ship transfer, with a delay commensurate with actual travel time if the player conducted the transfer personally, in and of itself would have significantly changed the way such groups could concentrate forces as it is. It would be improved, but would still take some planning and coordination on the part of such groups. And any players in the affected systems, if they picked up on the force concentration soon enough (by noticing the increased traffic and appearance of certain vessel types and groups), would still have time to 'get outta dodge', whether that be shifting system or play mode.

Now, however, with instant ship transfer, groups will be able to concentrate forces far quicker that the galaxy size and travel distances should allow - simply travel in their long range taxis and then hey presto they have their whole fleet at their disposal. And before other players even know what's going on, they face an armada that should actually have taken some time to concentrate. I fear that Frontier have made a snap call on instant transfer for the sake of something like CG participation but have neglected to consider how this will be used by various groups to exert dominance over others like never before. Ship transfer alone, with a delay, would have changed that dynamic anyway, but instant ship transfer, I fear, will go too far. If anything it will shift the balance of power in favour of groups that want to (unrealistically) quickly seek to dominate systems and CGs and the like with a minimum of coordination and effort compared to what they have to do at present. And what will the result of that be? Even more players leaving open, I fear, because the balance will have shifted further away from what the heart of Elite has always been - a lone pilot in his ship, trying to make his way in the galaxy and survive.

That's where I see the balance issue being - the way in which instant ship transfer dramatically affects force concentration beyond what simple ship transfer (with a delay) would have done.

This summarizes down to "makes it easier for people to do things together".

The negative slant just comes from the example you picked, positive examples exist too.

 

[WR3ND]

This summarizes down to "makes it easier for people to do things together".

The negative slant just comes from the example you picked, positive examples exist too.

Getting jiggy with your crew is cool and all, but I would presume the positive examples aren't potential game balancing issues.

 

[Marc_Hicks]

This summarizes down to "makes it easier for people to do things together".

The negative slant just comes from the example you picked, positive examples exist too.

Then impose a range limit and a 24 hour cool-down between transfers. Then you still get your wish, but with the exploitation factor toned right down.

Sadly, cost alone won't cut it, as the people most likely to exploit such a feature are the self-same people who got ludicrously rich exploiting every other weak game mechanic prior to the exploits being shut down (like the Robigo Run).

 

[Robert Maynard]

This is the thing. Braben is supposedly not at all responsible for this "mess" and it's all that cowboy's fault. Only it isn't. Right from the beginning, concessions were made because they had to be. And DBOBE signed off on all of them. It's not Sandro's fault, folks. The entire dev team is behind these changes. Telling them they are 'the suck' is a great way of garnering support on any changes.

From what Michael has said in another thread, your are correct:

In this instance the convenience was the overriding factor. That and keeping the feature within a sensible budget - complicating it unnecessarily introduces more points of failure and for a relatively small quality of life improvement, it's not worth the risk. The instant transfer also provides positive aspects to how players can interact the game - it gives them greater freedom to participate in wider aspects in what's going on. We did of course consider the downsides, and other ways of doing it - Sandy in fact was very much in favour of a delay, but it was felt that this weakened the utility of the feature. The point was to allow more freedom with ship use, not add additional barriers.

Michael

 

[Kyokushin]

With all respect to the Michael. I disagree.

Instant transfer is like getting a base on first date.

Not everything what is cool now, is cool in a bit longer term. If you need to earn for something somehow, it taste better.

 

[kofeyh]

From what Michael has said in another thread, your are correct:

Huh, that's pretty cool; won't make a lick of difference though, because once people apportion blame, it's never reverted. In many people's eyes it's always the cowboy and not the dreamer, or anyone else.

Which isn't very fair because ultimately the game is built by a team; singling people out to apportion blame (often with zero context available) is bad form.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

From what Michael has said in another thread, your are correct:

who ever believed that DB somehow was not aware of this was being a bit daft to be honest.. either that or they really think DB is totally inept and no idea what is going on around him.. it is why, IF there is blame to be assigned for miss selling (note i say IF) imo it is actually squarely on him as he is the one who would lead us to believe the game is grounded in believable scifi where possible.

I too could be labelled with the idiot bracket, as i truly thought some of the watered down missing stuff in the game was because of placeholder later to be fleshed out...... but that is more fool me. (note i am not being salty about this, it is what it is, so if we get ship teleportation, followed by cmdr teleportation in 2.3 then i guess it just shows the direction the game is going..... next time i see DB waxing lyrical about ED being grounded in science i suspect i will be scoffing somewhat!.

 

[Marc_Hicks]

I am going to leave my final thoughts on the matter-for now anyway.

There are two approaches to this that I feel I could support.

1. Timed transfer (my ideal option)

Cost-uncapped, based on ship size and distance summoned.
Distance-unlimited, only requires a shipyard.
Time Taken-0-240 minutes, depending on distance summoned and FSD on the summoned ship (distance/maximum range=minutes taken). So a ship with a 60Ly range could be transferred from one end of the bubble to the other in only 10 minutes.
Cooldown period-24 hours between ships.

2. Instant Transport (compromise position)

Cost-uncapped, as with option 1.
Distance-limited to a range of ship's maximum FSD range×5. So a 60Ly ship could be instantly transferred 300Ly.....but no further in one go.
Time Taken-instant, obviously.
Cooldown period-24 hours between ships.

My view is that both options, in their own way, minimize the exploit value of the ship transfer mechanic. They both retain the overall integrity of the galaxy's size-to a reasonable extent-& they both retain the pivotal importance of a decent FSD. A cooldown feature just makes it even less open to exploitation.....even if you can afford the cost of transferring multiple ships.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I thought of this:

How about a Compromise.

I don't think anyone likes the 3D printing thing, its just wrong. I am all against instant transfer, but I see some people want it, how about this:

Story and Lore, the basics:
A scientist has discovered a way to teleport stuff using quantum entanglement and witch space, maybe they are not sure how it works properly, you can get some good story ideas from this.

It doesn't work on organic material very well, so putting someone through the process will likely kill them. Well it did with all the test subjects/slaves.
You can only get this service at Hi-Tech systems as they are the only ones with the tech and the knowledge and money to put it into place.
It is also very expensive, so cargo running is still by far the cheapest way to move goods.

The reasons for the high price, is that it will make people think about what they want to do. Something is kicking off near, I can jump to the nearest Hi-Tech system and transfer my ship which has to be at another Hi-Tech system or do I not pay that price and go get the ship myself.

It stops breaking the mission system, give the players options and allows them to think what the best option is for them, stops players having a swiss army knife of ships in their pocket as most times. Ships will still need their jump drives etc.
But their are limitations to the system.

It will give players options instead of the automatic go to button, which everyone will use. Options are good, both have their good and bad points, one takes time, the other a lot of credits.

 

[Marc_Hicks]

Another limitation that would make instant transfer acceptable to me is that you have to be at least CORDIAL with the faction that controls the station you want to transfer to.

 

[krueger.freddy]

yes but little. Maybe less then a couple hours.
As far as i see this cannon I like think of it like your orginal ship is not beamed but
scanned. and sort of 3D printed out on the destiantion where the original ship gets destroyed in the process....
That sort of works for me. Yet the Printing should take some time.

 

[Ozram]

Another limitation that would make instant transfer acceptable to me is that you have to be at least CORDIAL with the faction that controls the station you want to transfer to.

I'd put that at allied. Cordial for being able to have more than one docked

 

[Susanna]

Any delay that isn't based on the existing travel mechanics would just be there for window dressing. We don;t need window dressing. If the stated purpose for this improvement is to let players enjoy the content with fewer barriers, then let it be so. A cursory delay would just be for show. We are all adult enough to understand a decision taken to advance game play. Aren't we?

Hear Hear! I see no real need for a lengthy time delay. It's a game... Let us get on with it and enjoy it without a lot of pointless waiting around!

 

[[DOOK] Droogie]

No, jumps aren't necessary at all. You will have your DBX, ASPX or an Annaconda for that as you can summon your Combat ship their in an instant.

Combat ships are already better at combat, they do not need to be any better. You are removing the balance that they had. As I said in an earlier post, you may as wll give all ships a 50ly FSD drive as they are now irrelevant apart from the ships with the large ranges, i.e DBX, ASPX and the Annaconda. You would not need any other ship to move around the bubble with.

All I wanted personally was module storage and maybe ship transfer that actually takes time and gives a choice on whether to go transfer your ship which takes time and costs a reasonable amount, go back and get the ship yourself (this should be the far cheaper option to balance it), or buy another ship where you are.

You are still benfiting as it takes the same amount of time as if you flew the ship there yourself, as you wouldn't need to go back and get it, but there is a cost factor, which you may not want to have.

Consequences to your decisions is important in a game, with instant travel, you lose all of that.

What if you take a combat mission to another system? Or what if you want to do something on a system with no shipyard or station? What if there's a CG that of has an outpost?


Also, last time I checked, super cruise still requires an FSD.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Also, last time I checked, super cruise still requires an FSD.

Yes .... as in we cannot just sell the FSD we always have to replace it with another even if it is tiny in relation to the one that would be fitted to the ship if it was expected to travel.

 

[[DOOK] Droogie]

Yes .... as in we cannot just sell the FSD we always have to replace it with another even if it is tiny in relation to the one that would be fitted to the ship if it was expected to travel.

This is no different than any other role, either.

 

[Robert Maynard]

This is no different than any other role, either.

In what way? Roles other than combat generally require the ship to be able to undertake inter-system travel. Combat can be achieved with only intra-system travel.

 

[[DOOK] Droogie]

In what way? Roles other than combat generally require the ship to be able to undertake inter-system travel. Combat can be achieved with only intra-system travel.

Other roles allow you to massively downsize core modules.

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Why not include the cost of a class A FSD into the transport cost if it doesn't have one?

 

[SkipRat]

Okay, instantaneous ship transfers should never have been thought of, let alone announced in public as it can for starters lead to many exploits along the way, especially for those who want to kill other people. I.e... take a smaller further jumping ship to Sag A or where ever this station is, then instantly transfer your leviathan player killer ship with the jump range of a brick... Yeah!! Utterly stupid idea.

Ship transfers should be

1) Take time, the further you are away, the longer it will take. So if you want to transfer a ship to Sag A, it is going to take a month or two.

2) it should cost XXXXX amount per jump. So if you want to transfer a ship to Sag A, it will not only take one to two months, but also cost 3-4 billion credits. Where as a ship, 3 jumps away and around the corner will take 30 mins or so and cost a couple of hundred thousand.

3) Maybe your ship will get destroyed along the way (very small %), with taxi company cover xxx% of the insurance costs.

That is it argument over, this is the way it has to be more else, just need to work out the costs and time taken really. Anyone who is asking for instantaneous ship transfer is a whiny millennial cry baby who wants instant satisfaction at expense of everyone elses. There is no justification for it, it does not fit in with the style of the game and certainly doesn't fit with the lore, because since when did teleportation devices on ships exist in elite.

So debate over and close the thread please mods, before the average IQ of gamers drops any further.

 

[SkipRat]

There is a need for this poll here on the forums as well since there is not a clear distinction of community preference made in other polls elsewhere, i.e., the mega thread. (I've read most of it most of the way through, but it's an uphill battle trying to keep up. My goodness we're a passionate bunch!)

It is clear that most of the community seems to prefer some form of ship transfer or are indifferent about it, so that is not what this thread is about. If you want to discuss that, please use the thread linked to above.

So, simple and direct... Which would you prefer? (Again, if you'd prefer some other solution or don't want ship transfers at all, please use the mega thread to voice your opinions and concerns.)

Thanks!

Why are we even debating this? Of course it should, the only reason why people want it instant is because they are the typical instant gratification gamer that does care about anything other than what they want.

Ship transfers take time, end of.

Not negotiable, not debatable.