To all those moaning about being killed around Jaques bu other players.

[Aewarin Jameson]

they have no right to be in?

Oh really ?

People can go anywhere, for any reason and shoot / kill anyone they please, even for no reason at all.

That is the "law" of the universe in ED - that is how it was built.

What is totally messed up are the repercussions for one's actions, or rather a lack thereof.

That is the underlying problem of the game - it favours the murderer.

It's also totally OT ... so to bring it back in line with your OP (to what I now understand you were trying to say ) the other thing messed up with the game is "wear and tear" - I was shocked, happy for the pilot, but angry at FD for allowing a player to get to the core so quickly after release and now it can be done in 8 hours, probably less with engineering mods ... that's a joke ! Where's the danger ?

 

[Straha Yeagar]

What, deliberately going out and spoiling other peoples fun in an areas of the game they have no right to be in?

Just wait til we see the battle builds with no fuel scoops and small FSD being teleported into Jaqueue...

 

[SkipRat]

Or...and bear with me now, I know this is a revolutionary idea...play in PG/S! It's a tale as old as time, PvE folk are having fun and murder-hobos stop by for a visit. It happens in the Bubble, it happened at Sag A, and now at Jaques apparently. The PG/S Cloaking Device is strong, use it in good health!

How about this idea, proper game mechanics that actually creates a rich game where people can play in open, not have to hide in prvt of solo due to poor game mechanics.

And constantly suggesting people should hide in prv or solo, does nothing to address poor game mechanics. Exploring will still be glorified tourism, trading will be one jump madness that is, combat will be dull and boring, piracy would still be of no worth and interest to anyone... Even mass murders would lose their place in the game as everyone is in prv and solo...

You Sir are willing to sacrifice everyone else experience for your own selfish gain that helps no-one but yourself in your god ship that is great at everything.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

Just wait til we see the battle builds with no fuel scoops and small FSD being teleported into Jaqueue...

Spoiler

[video=youtube;ASGgn8bNQuA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASGgn8bNQuA[/video]

The obvious was "Queen - it's a kind of Magic" but I wanted to be different !

 

[SkipRat]

Just wait til we see the battle builds with no fuel scoops and small FSD being teleported into Jaqueue...

There is even more to that, than what this thread is about...

With proper game mechanics, you couldn't transfer a combat FDL to Jaques, it would blow up along the way as it is designed to deal with the riggers of travelling such vast distances. And another why instant ship transfers is so game breaking as it strips away many levels from the gameplay.

 

[Fracktal]

What about Diamondback Explorers or Anacondas? You can equip a vette with all the exploration stuff you need and still have decent shields. Same with Cutter or a Python.

There are plenty of option to give more outfitting for exploration, even for smaller ships.

- No Utility slot is really useful for explorers.
- Some (All) Scanners could be moved (optionally) to Weapon Hardpoints to free some Internals.
- Dedicated Bulkhead
- Specific Shield drawing more Power without additional MJ, but giving specific Deep Space Travel protection (High energy neutrino)
- Specific Exploration Class Internals (FSD, Engine, Distributors which are lighter, drawing significantly more power -lowering use of weapon potential- but more resilient to Wear and Tear)
- Specific Engineering Mods
- Etc...

Not all options have to be used. But only adding a few game mechanics while adding a need for strategy regarding fitting and travel route for exploration would make the game more interesting.

Like, I don't have the Neutron protection utility equiped so I should avoid traveling to some systems or plan a SRV trip to refill my AMFU.

 

[Jypson]

How about this idea, proper game mechanics that actually creates a rich game where people can play in open, not have to hide in prvt of solo due to poor game mechanics.

And constantly suggesting people should hide in prv or solo, does nothing to address poor game mechanics. Exploring will still be glorified tourism, trading will be one jump madness that is, combat will be dull and boring, piracy would still be of no worth and interest to anyone... Even mass murders would lose their place in the game as everyone is in prv and solo...

You Sir are willing to sacrifice everyone else experience for your own selfish gain that helps no-one but yourself in your god ship that is great at everything.

lol, have it your way. If you wanna stay in 'oh-so glorious' open, you're gonna have to fight for it then. Begging daddy to change the rules to suit your own playstyle isn't going to get you anywhere.

 

[Helfar]

or make it so if you die from a player, you dont lose your ship and get respawned where you last left. Also they dont clear bounties or missions, infact make it pointless to kill another player...

 

[SkipRat]

Oh really ?

People can go anywhere, for any reason and shoot / kill anyone they please, even for no reason at all.

That is the "law" of the universe in ED - that is how it was built.

What is totally messed up are the repercussions for one's actions, or rather a lack thereof.

That is the underlying problem of the game - it favours the murderer.

It's also totally OT ... so to bring it back in line with your OP (to what I now understand you were trying to say ) the other thing messed up with the game is "wear and tear" - I was shocked, happy for the pilot, but angry at FD for allowing a player to get to the core so quickly after release and now it can be done in 8 hours, probably less with engineering mods ... that's a joke ! Where's the danger ?

Players can go where they want, they just need a suitable ship and right set up.

 

[Quiquag]

I do agree, combat ships shouldn't be able to handle the trip as readily. Exploration should require some thought, and equiping the right modules.
Could someone still explore in a combat ship? Absolutely, but it would need to be fitted for exploration, and as a result, not be nearly as capable of combat.

 

[SkipRat]

or make it so if you die from a player, you dont lose your ship and get respawned where you last left. Also they dont clear bounties or missions, infact make it pointless to kill another player...

That's just masking the problem with cheap sticky tape.

 

[Straha Yeagar]

There is even more to that, than what this thread is about...

With proper game mechanics, you couldn't transfer a combat FDL to Jaques, it would blow up along the way as it is designed to deal with the riggers of travelling such vast distances. And another why instant ship transfers is so game breaking as it strips away many levels from the gameplay.

I know this thread is not about that specifically, but it does tie rather nicely...there have been griefers at Sag A* , and I thought I heard about some at Beagle Point too, and those are two locations that have been tossed about as places for outposts and stations to be built...instant teleportation of unequipped ships...

As of right now, there is no differential in hull type and the damage/distance curve...all hulls are the same. Ideally, there would be a differential as was described earlier, but...that is where jump ranges, and by extension, loadouts, become the limiting factor in determining a long range vessel vs short range vessel.

I am not opposed to automation, and automating a process that can otherwise be handled manually, but the rules for both must be the same otherwise it is no longer automation, rather automated bypassing existing game mechanics.

 

[SkipRat]

lol, have it your way. If you wanna stay in 'oh-so glorious' open, you're gonna have to fight for it then. Begging daddy to change the rules to suit your own playstyle isn't going to get you anywhere.

I don't do exploring... But I will still fight for proper game mechanics that make it better and more enjoyable for everyone.

I want a rich gaming universe, with pirates who are actually able to be pirates...

And now you are assuming that is my play style... Actually no, I prefer combat, but even then combat mechanics and engineers is a mess... Trading, trading is an utter joke, just one jump wonders and not a single trading ship is better than another ship of similar size and class.

Type 6 is not better than an Asp Explorer
Type 7 is not better than a Python
Type 9 is not better an a Anaconda

The ships are cheaper, but they are also a lot worse at trading... So if you are going to go trading, don't take a dedicated trader ship.

 

[Atebits]

The OP is generally correct:
The problem is incredibly straight forwards.

a. Explorers use D-rated ships wherever they can so much as possible
b. Explorers fly glass ships
c. Explorers spend months of their LIVES flying around scanning planets
e. Explorers get nothing much more out of it than the pleasure of doing so
f. Explorers get killed and then lose everything all of that time was spent on


The PvPer?
a. Flies out to where the Explorers are
b. Destroys a huge chunk of a players time
c. This destruction of player equating to time entirely destroys all progress that player had accumulated
d. FD rewards this by current game design
e. The PvP loses nothing and being a Combat Pilot is making considerably more money than Explorer to begin with
f. The PvPer isn't flying a ship made of paper


Argue against this... really.


PvP has a RIGHT to exist in any game honestly. Just as FD did a very good thing for their sales by adding Open, Private, and Solo play for those that don't want their entire social experience with another human being to be negative.
A. Go to work (a negative social experience).
B. Come home (possibly another negative experience).
C. Go to school (certainly another negative experience)
D. Log on to a game ... the only definitely option for a CHANCE of something positive out of life


...and then someone kills you because it's 'fun'.

This accumulates to a very powerful impact on people's outlook of a game in short order. So ya, the problem is very much how the Risk-to-Rewards of Exploration do not match the Risk-to-Rewards for PvP. That's a game mechanic. It doesn't matter what game mode you are in.

 

[Jypson]

I don't do exploring... But I will still fight for proper game mechanics that make it better and more enjoyable for everyone.

I want a rich gaming universe, with pirates who are actually able to be pirates...

And now you are assuming that is my play style... Actually no, I prefer combat, but even then combat mechanics and engineers is a mess... Trading, trading is an utter joke, just one jump wonders and not a single trading ship is better than another ship of similar size and class.

Type 6 is not better than an Asp Explorer
Type 7 is not better than a Python
Type 9 is not better an a Anaconda

The ships are cheaper, but they are also a lot worse at trading... So if you are going to go trading, don't take a dedicated trader ship.

Ok, supplement playstyle with preferences, and the message remains the same. You might not like how things have been implemented, but c'est la vie.

Dedicated trade ships aren't as good because they're cheaper. If you want a BMW, you're going to have to pay BMW prices. Volkswagens are great, but you get what you pay for.

 

[DragoonKnight]

Well think about it?

Hyperspace for instance, puts massive forces and stresses on the ship when jumping, not to mention, sending you face towards a whopping great stella body. This ultimately twists and bends the ships, decreasing its intergity etc over time.

Now if explorer ship which is designed to cope with these extremes is in deep space exploring, whilst at the same time combat ships are most definitely not designed to deal with the same extremes, but can do exactly the same thing though with the same consequences to both, despite the enormous difference in design.

It stands to reason that an explorer ship which are not design for fighting, would get slaughtered by combat class ships... if common sense reigned. Hence what is the logic of having Exploration ships getting wrecked in Combat, but Combat ships not being wrecked by Exploration?

It makes perfect sense.

All ships are designed to adequately deal with the forces of hyperspace jumps and the stresses they induce on the hull / internals. Designing them otherwise would be criminally negligent - as in the design engineers who worked on those ships would be in jail.

Combat ships are also designed to deal with the forces of weapons trying to destroy their hulls. And they have shields to protect them from things like meteorites and random space debris. So thr argument that combat ships should be these weak hulled tin cans does not make much sense.

There is such a thing as hull integrity and that does decrease based on how long you supercruise and jump.

 

[SkipRat]

There are plenty of option to give more outfitting for exploration, even for smaller ships.

- No Utility slot is really useful for explorers.
- Some (All) Scanners could be moved (optionally) to Weapon Hardpoints to free some Internals.
- Dedicated Bulkhead
- Specific Shield drawing more Power without additional MJ, but giving specific Deep Space Travel protection (High energy neutrino)
- Specific Exploration Class Internals (FSD, Engine, Distributors which are lighter, drawing significantly more power -lowering use of weapon potential- but more resilient to Wear and Tear)
- Specific Engineering Mods
- Etc...

Not all options have to be used. But only adding a few game mechanics while adding a need of strategy regarding fitting and travel route for exploration would make the game more interesting.

Like, I don't have the Neutron protection utility equipped so I should avoid travelling to some systems or plan a SRV trip to refill my AMFU.

You are missing a whole section of play.

Base camps, were explorers gather for basic repairs and refuels (even explorer ships would have to return to the core to get proper repairs), and from these base camps, push out the boundaries of the the unknown.

But it also gives player groups like the Hutton Truckers, real trucking game play, resupplying these base camps, even getting repaired along the way to reach the next base camp and resupply them. Helping the explorers stay out deeper for longer.

Or as someone mentioned, what about "WAR", with wear and tear at proper levels, you would need the Truckers and haulers to keep the supply chain fed to keep the fighters and Fed Corvettes, the combat pilots out deep in space and keep on fighting. It creates more than it takes away. Even long range combat pilots to act as guard in case of enemy attack, get refuelled and rearmed ready for the guard trip back to the core.

So when this war ever happens, it will give people who are not into combat a role to play to help fight any alien race or whatever or skilled explorers acting as scouts trying track the enemy, bust most importantly take part in some capacity.

But hey lets remove any game mechanics that open up all sorts of game play depth, because according to some we should all have god ships that can do everything.

 

[DragoonKnight]

Making some Optional Modules (like AMFU), not optional but mandatory would be a good start.

After my last trip, which was more than 20'000 LY, my DBE had barely few percent module/hull damage.

Since that trip, I am considering replacing the AMFU by a SRV Bay as I'm not a hardcore explorer and from what I have seen AMFU is only needed for Months long expedition.

Can you explain to me why your internals should take damage from a long trip (assuming you didnt get cooked by binary stars or other avoidable incidents)? I can understand the hull suffering wear and tear

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

That’s an excellent question! Allow me to elaborate.

The difficulty that the majority of explorers want in Elite can be termed as “environmental difficulties”. Hazards out and about in deep space that we would encounter while exploring. Take fuel scooping for example, the act of fuel scooping itself should be challenging, involving flying around solar flares and navigating through corona ejections and such. There could also be systems out in deep space that have intense solar storms or magnetic phenomena all throughout the system which makes exploring the system hazardous. If comets were in the game then they could be able to be deep scanned for huge payouts, but scanning them would involve flying very close in their wake requiring piloting around debris and such or risk damaging your ship. And with the added regularity of ship damage the AFMU then becomes much more necessary and frequently used, which uses ammo much faster, thus requiring explorers to land on planet surfaces much more often in order to replenish supplies. In that vein repairing the ship in deep space should be more involving too, requiring more materials than simply “AFMU ammo”, thereby forcing explorers to actually land more often and search stuff out. Simply adding module degradation over time would add more use for the AFMU with deep space exploring.

The whole process of exploring should ideally be more challenging while also being more interactive, rather than simply jumping and honking endlessly. More risks to take, more opportunities for damage, more things to do and explore, just more engaging.

I do not really want fuel scooping to be some sort of challenging test of pilot skill, since a lot of the time I fuel scoop in big ships. You do however bring up some good ideas and I would like to see exploration requiring pilots to fly more in normal space in order to explore. Right now most exploration outside of SC is just when trying to land and drive the srv around or looking around a planet that has an interesting surface.

 

[Fracktal]

All ships are designed to adequately deal with the forces of hyperspace jumps and the stresses they induce on the hull / internals. Designing them otherwise would be criminally negligent - as in the design engineers who worked on those ships would be in jail.

Combat ships are also designed to deal with the forces of weapons trying to destroy their hulls. And they have shields to protect them from things like meteorites and random space debris. So thr argument that combat ships should be these weak hulled tin cans does not make much sense.

There is such a thing as hull integrity and that does decrease based on how long you supercruise and jump.

So let's delete all Exploration ships and have everybody fly combat ships even for exploring then?

There is more than hyperspace jumps as Stress factors and damage potential factors. Going anywhere near a Blackhole, Neutron star should have some structural/module impact, if no protection is equipped.

And combat modules (Shield Boosters, Weapons, etc.) in a realistic environment would typically required regular maintenance/repair as critical failure might be dangerous for the user. But nothing like that in ED.

 

[Teldja]

> Ah, here is the disagreement then. Ships aren't classes, it's how you outfit them that creates their class.

To a limit.
You can outfit a combat ship to improve his capabilities to go out there and explore deep space but it will never be the best choice to do the job.

It's like saying, "I am going to take a MTB M1A1 Abrams to make a trip from Paris to Pekin".
Sure, No one will argue that a tank is NOT able to survive almost any harsh conditions but...
Wouldn't be much better to take any Land Rover vehicle instead to do the same trip ?
That would depends of your objective, right ?
The thing is, the technical maintenance requirement to make the trip would be massively different.

Do you think a Formula One is better than a Ford Focus RS WRC or vice-versa to do a race? They basically are cars, aren't they ?
You could modify theses cars to adapt them to your needs, right ? And off you go ! Do you see a pattern ?

The problem with ED is that their is almost no differences between a trip from Sol to Altair and a trip from Sol to the Bubble Nebula.
The only difference is the time to reach your destination.

Travelling in Elite Dangerous is almost like driving on a highway or an Autobahn.
No need for a specific car to go from Paris to Berlin, you'll get there eventually.

Space Exploration... Travelling vast distances in deep space and between stars, should be like an off road trip in a harsh environment to my opinion.

Well, it could have been like that but ED would have been a different game, so like I said, this is just my opinion.