The Star Citizen Thread v5

[Ian Skippy]

This is getting really tiring, it's part of the original campaign as the plan was to develop SQ42 first and SC afterwards instead of developing them in parallel as they do now. I already explained that plans changed when the original campaign didn't end, but was continued as part of a community decission, after having reached the funding milestone of 23 million (making them independent on investors), it was than decided to continue funding and increase the scope successively, after the 65 million milestone it was stated that every extra dollar in funding would go straight into developing a better experience for the players, which i have no problem believing seeing the visual difference when comparing the original trailer, first iterations of the hangar or ship models, with the current ones. With increased funding the scope increased, anyone thinking that this wouldn't have had an effect on the estimated 2014 release date has been delusional. A alpha version of a game that is bugged, that's horrendous.

I gave money in return for a promised release date. I didnt not agree to cancelling that. He should have honored the deal, and then continue adding more if people wanted to fund that. If I take money from a client, I cant break my promises because some other client was okay with having a later release date. Its absurd to even consider that. You dont 'explain' anything, you're just apologizing for deeply immoral behavior. At least I got my money back, enjoy your 'increased scope'.

 

[IceGryphon]

It's utterly ridiculous that the defence of SC has come to such an absurd point as this.

Could you please define “promise”?

It's absurd?

to promise:
"to tell someone that you will definitely do something or that something will definitely happen in the future"

to plan:
"to intend or expect to do (something)"

How can an estimation or plan be a definite?

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I'm sure the CR quote about "stretch goals will not affect delivery date, because your money makes it all possible" is winging its way to us right now

He may have said that, he also stated the opposite numerous times.

 

[AJW]

What I want to know is whether IceGryphon thinks that CIG have been 'delusional' when they've been claiming that the game is substantially complete - when responding to requests for refunds.

 

[IceGryphon]

I gave money in return for a promised release date. I didnt not agree to cancelling that. He should have honored the deal, and then continue adding more if people wanted to fund that. If I take money from a client, I cant break my promises because some other client was okay with having a later release date. Its absurd to even consider that. You dont 'explain' anything, you're just apologizing for deeply immoral behavior. At least I got my money back, enjoy your 'increased scope'.

What is really absurd is to mistake an estimation or plan as a promise. I should not have gotten into this discussion, there's no point, i'm out.

 

[AJW]

What is really absurd is to mistake an estimation or plan as a promise. I should not have gotten into this discussion, there's no point, i'm out.

No, what is absurd is making a statement that a product will be delivered by a certain date, taking money on that basis, and then trying to unilaterally change the ToS (a contract) when unable to deliver.

 

[darkoff]

With increased funding the scope increased, anyone thinking that this wouldn't have had an effect on the estimated 2014 release date has been delusional. A alpha version of a game that is bugged, that's horrendous.

your calling chris roberts delusional you know.

You have stated that you expect to have an Alpha up and going in about 12 months, with a beta roughly 10 months after that and then launch. For a game of this size and scope, do you think you can really be done in the next two years?

Really it is all about constant iteration from launch. The whole idea is to be constantly updating. It isn’t like the old days where you had to have everything and the kitchen sink in at launch because you weren’t going to come back to it for awhile. We’re already one year in - another two years puts us at 3 total which is ideal. Any more and things would begin to get stale.

source: https://www.themittani.com/features/exclusive-interview-star-citizens-chris-roberts

 

[Tippis]

It's absurd?

Yes, it's absurd that rather than accept the fact that CIG has broken tons of promises, like companies are want to do when they build hype, you try to redefine their statements that something will happen to mean that they might happen, maybe, just so that you can then treat at as a very poorly laid plan (as if this is something good) as opposed to what it actually is.

to promise:
"to tell someone that you will definitely do something or that something will definitely happen in the future"

to plan:
"to intend or expect to do (something)"

How can an estimation or plan be a definite?

By saying that it will be completed at a certain, specific time in the future.

 

[IceGryphon]

Like when Roberts corrected expectations (based on his own comments) about Star Marine last year? As I recall his "correction" was that "it's already in the game". They're not going to correct anything, or do anything that might harm their income stream. At most they'll move the goalposts, and then apologists will claim that was what they promised all along.

Well, not sure if i should defend that statement or not, as i think it was a political statement to dodge the unability to deliver it at that time, but there is some truth to it as "basic" FPS combat wasn't in before 2.0

That's your opinion of its value. As I backer I find their video output to be entirely worthless. But the point wasn't about its perceived value, it was that it exemplifies CIG actively contributing to the hype in a way that Hello Games didn't.

If you think their video output is entirely worthless, you shouldn't pay money for it, i wouldn't do that either.

There are a handful. And multiplayer was never touted as "game changing" in the way people like you clearly assumed. The most he ever said was that you'd be able to see other players, but that it would be so rare that it wouldn't probably never happen, hardly how you'd promote a core feature. But lets not drift off into facts. Lets see how many features make it into SC's MVP.

Multiplayer for itself is a "game changing" feature, doesn't having anything to do with NMS, you don't have to advertise multiplayer as "game changing".

 

[Ian Skippy]

He may have said that, he also stated the opposite numerous times.

Wow, this is sinking deep. Your apology is now that Chris is just a compulsive liar who shouldnt be quoted in a discussion because he said the opposite too? And he didnt break a promise with the release dates, he is just chronically incompetent in sticking to any kind of schedule he himself presents?

You totally convinced me to re-buy. [haha]

 

[IceGryphon]

your calling chris roberts delusional you know.

source: https://www.themittani.com/features/exclusive-interview-star-citizens-chris-roberts

Please look at the date of your source, this was during the initial campaign... I don't think CR is able to foresee the future and definitely didn't think at that time to be able to fund ~$120 million...

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Wow, this is sinking deep. Your apology is now that Chris is just a compulsive liar who shouldnt be quoted in a discussion because he said the opposite too? And he didnt break a promise with the release dates, he is just chronically incompetent in sticking to any kind of schedule he himself presents?

You totally convinced me to re-buy. [haha]

I'm not here to convince anyone to re-buy, lol.

 

[Asp Explorer]

Please look at the date of your source, this was during the initial campaign... I don't think CR is able to foresee the future and definitely didn't think at that time to be able to fund ~$120 million...

Then he should have just produced the game he promised at $6M, and used the remainder for improvements upon it

 

[AJW]

Please look at the date of your source, this was during the initial campaign... I don't think CR is able to foresee the future and definitely didn't think at that time to be able to fund ~$120 million...

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I'm not here to convince anyone to re-buy, lol.

Being able to 'foresee' delivery dates is expected of someone who contracts to supply things...

 

[Tippis]

Then he should have just produced the game he promised at $6M, and used the remainder for improvements upon it

It's very unfair against rational and competent people when you accuse Chris of being one of them.

 

[Asp Explorer]

Being able to 'foresee' delivery dates is expected of someone who contracts to supply things...

We just don't understand contracts

 

[IceGryphon]

Yes, it's absurd that rather than accept the fact that CIG has broken tons of promises, like companies are want to do when they build hype, you try to redefine their statements that something will happen to mean that they might happen, maybe, just so that you can then treat at as a very poorly laid plan (as if this is something good) as opposed to what it actually is.

Whatever floats your boat, a plan is a plan, a promise is a promise, and each of them have specific missunderstandable wording so you don't mistake one for the other. I'm not redefining anything, give me a source of them saying "we will definitely release SC in 2014" instead of "we plan on releasing SC in 2014" and i will completely retract my statements.

By saying that it will be completed at a certain, specific time in the future.

Good that you acknowledge that, as an estimation is not a certain, specific time in the future.

 

[Ian Skippy]

I don't think CR is able to foresee the future

We know. Apparantly he cant even see the difference between a module that is almost finished and will definitely be available within a few weeks from a cluster that after nine months of additional work has to be scrapped completely. Noone expects him to be Nostradamus, but having a general idea if something will happen tomorrow or next decade is normally somewhat of a requirement for a project leader...

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Whatever floats your boat, a plan is a plan, a promise is a promise, and each of them have specific missunderstandable wording so you don't mistake one for the other. I'm not redefining anything, give me a source of them saying "we will definitely release SC in 2014" instead of "we plan on releasing SC in 2014" and i will completely retract my statements.

Sure:

The purpose of the higher stretch goals is to ensure that the game-as-described is finished in the two year time period.
http://archive.is/4B1Q5#selection-375.0-375.121

Simple Definition of ensure: to make (something) sure, certain, or safe

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ensure

How much more of a promise does it need to be again?

 

[darkoff]

Please look at the date of your source, this was during the initial campaign... I don't think CR is able to foresee the future and definitely didn't think at that time to be able to fund ~$120 million...

still doesn't chance the fact that by your definition chris roberts is delusional. And your still giving him more money.
there was also later braben interview where he talked about release date and he gave a leeway of 2 to 3 months for release.
the scope was already much bigger back then.

The original scope was fairly darn large and he still hasnt delivered that,
Chris answer turned into lie once again. The guy is delusional just like you have said.

 

[Tippis]

Whatever floats your boat, a plan is a plan, a promise is a promise

…and Chris has provided plenty of both and upheld neither. It's ok. Companies do this all the time, as do the “idea men” leading them. CIG and Chris are no different. You do not need to redefine their promises as mere “plans” to defend their honour.

I'm not redefining anything, give me a source of them saying "we will definitely release SC in 2014" instead of "we plan on releasing SC in 2014" and i will completely retract my statements.

The people who pledge for their spaceships will get to test-fly them long before the general public. 12 months in, we will allow the early backers to play the multiplayer space combat Alpha, and then 20-22 months in they will get to play the Star Citizen Beta, adventuring around the huge open galaxy, well before the general public. We are going to limit our alpha slots to 200,000 as we want to stress test the game with real users, but will not be ready for the full load until we have finished Beta.

I thus consider your statements fully retracted since here we have promises in plain text about what will happen by the end of 2013 and mid-2014.

Good that you acknowledge that, as an estimation is not a certain, specific time in the future.

Too bad that I acknowledged no such thing. Don't put words in my mouth just because your argument proved to be a bunch of nonsense.

 

[IceGryphon]

I get it guys and i'm not really able to argue with 10 people at a time, so i will not discuss this matter any further, it's not what i'm here for.

 

[darkoff]

I get it guys and i'm not really able to argue with 10 people at a time, so i will not discuss this matter any further, it's not what i'm here for.

you know it was good discussion.
I would have never guessed that you would call Chris Roberts delusional in one of your arguments.
That was totally unexpected.