Still sore after the npc combat downgrade ?

[Faded Glory]

[snip]
And FD and SJA said the goal for the AI was to be a intresting fight that can be a challenge
for even the best of pilots.

You may like the game as it is now , but I remember FD telling us one day we will get our good AI...

Not after FD promised us a good AI in the early days , not when elite as a franchise has some of the hardest dogfights in any game

The problem is that a 'challenge for even the best pilots' (and that's probably a pretty small percentage of players) is just instant destruction for the average player. That balance that you (and FD) are looking for is harder than a needle in a haystack. Much harder.

I can't say for Elite, but I played FE2 for decades, and I really wouldn't say the combat in that was harder than against a decent high ranking NPC here, but obviously that's just my opinion. I last played FE2 shortly before ED came out, and I got to Elite in it...

It should be noted that the OP started this thread shortly after posting in another thread where a player was complaining about the much too easy NPCs... That OP showed a video of him in his Python destroying a Mostly Harmless Adder, and complained that the NPCs were boring and no challenge. Hardly valid grounds for complaint IMHO.

I still see this AI aggression bug where the NPC *never* shoots back, no matter how low their hull gets. A variant of the bug is where they won't fire a single shot until they have lost their shields.....or in some cases even lost 50% of their hull.

Honestly I've not experienced either of these bugs. Every NPC that's attacked me (all mission generated, and ranked Expert to Elite) has very much shot at me, and even when security turn up to help out, the NPC will continue to target me. I'm not complaining about that, it makes sense for them to target the player, but I have never had an NPC just sit there passively and be shot at since 2.0.

 

[GODofDUTY83]

Such a shame you're on x-box. I'd love to send you to the rebuy screen in your cute vulture c:

/ego

Nothing wrong with being a dreamer. 1 on 1, you'd get smoked.

 

[Marc_Hicks]

The problem is that a 'challenge for even the best pilots' (and that's probably a pretty small percentage of players) is just instant destruction for the average player. That balance that you (and FD) are looking for is harder than a needle in a haystack. Much harder.

I can't say for Elite, but I played FE2 for decades, and I really wouldn't say the combat in that was harder than against a decent high ranking NPC here, but obviously that's just my opinion. I last played FE2 shortly before ED came out, and I got to Elite in it...

It should be noted that the OP started this thread shortly after posting in another thread where a player was complaining about the much too easy NPCs... That OP showed a video of him in his Python destroying a Mostly Harmless Adder, and complained that the NPCs were boring and no challenge. Hardly valid grounds for complaint IMHO.



Honestly I've not experienced either of these bugs. Every NPC that's attacked me (all mission generated, and ranked Expert to Elite) has very much shot at me, and even when security turn up to help out, the NPC will continue to target me. I'm not complaining about that, it makes sense for them to target the player, but I have never had an NPC just sit there passively and be shot at since 2.0.

The reality is that the AI in Beta 4 was actually well gauged to the levels of the players who would most likely encounter them. The only problem was that the rank of many players was obtained via farming, not genuine skill (and I include myself in that), which is why so many people got salty when 2.1 was released.

 

[Faded Glory]

The reality is that the AI in Beta 4 was actually well gauged to the levels of the players who would most likely encounter them. The only problem was that the rank of many players was obtained via farming, not genuine skill (and I include myself in that), which is why so many people got salty when 2.1 was released.

Perhaps to an extent that is true, however... Ranking up in Elite is much more a matter of persistence than of skill. A player need never destroy a ship rated higher than Expert, and they will eventually reach Elite. Balancing AI to suit every player in the game is almost impossible, because for many (not necessarily all), they might be able to cope with a Deadly NPC if they are in their preferred combat ship, but not if they are in a less appropriate ship, so balancing against a player's rank is flawed.

There's no reason why a Harmless rated player shouldn't meet an Elite NPC, and there's no reason an Elite rated player shouldn't meet much easier opponents. The trick for FD is to make the matchmaking believable and 'fair'. Frankly, if they replaced CMDR rank matchmaking with location / security based matchmaking, that would be a step in the right direction.

Mission based matchmaking is also a logical way of doing things, however many complaints (from both camps) stem from the fact that players don't always think before they click, so they perhaps take a mission that's too difficult (because it has a great payout), then complain because the NPC opposition seems overpowered, or they take on a weak opponent and claim the NPCs are boring.

FD can certainly make NPCs that are a challenge to the best pilots, after all a computer can outperform humans in the tasks involved for combat in this game. However, if they do that, they kind of need to make that challenge 'opt in' rather than forced upon everyone regardless of their desire (or not) to have that challenge.

 

[digitalscream]

For me it went like this-1.0 to 1.3.....AI was suitably challenging, then around 1.4-2.0, we got the spin of death, & other AI stupidiy that ripped all the fun out of combat. Then 2.1 Beta 4 had it working beautifully, then a combo of some modded weapons bugs and an outcry from RES farmers got it dumbed down. Not to 1.4-2.0 levels.....but certainly not where it was during the 2.1 beta. I still see this AI aggression bug where the NPC *never* shoots back, no matter how low their hull gets. A variant of the bug is where they won't fire a single shot until they have lost their shields.....or in some cases even lost 50% of their hull.

Are you sure it's not the designed-in behaviour, whereby they don't fire back until they've managed to eyeball you dead-straight from the cockpit?

 

[Suohhen]

But the users (like me) who want a hard AI had it in the early days , then it went due to bugs.
After the bugs got fixed there was an outcry about how ''hard'' it was to fight and so it got nerfed.

When we say ''maybe its not for you'' its not aimed at those who have complaints but those who whine about every aspect of the game and seem to want to dumb it down...
However when you spent thousands of euros on a game only to see it transform into something it was never ment to be you get a bit hurt

I can understand your view. However, a couple of points: 1. I bought this game in beta, before Oct. 2014, and the AI was not very hard, and because of that it was fun for me. It was made harder than necessary when certain people, mostly hardcore I believe, had improved their skills to a point where it was no longer challenging. This was not necessary since there are ways to make the game more difficult on an individual basis. I spent a lot of money to buy a computer to play this game myself, and I shouldn't have my game play made more difficult when there are ways for people to do that for themselves. You don't change the rules of a game OR it's environment because some players find it too easy. 2. Many of the "maybe the game is not for you" comments WERE aimed at some people who complained about the Ai. This is not right. I chose very early on to play in Solo so I could play the way I want and have the combat that I am comfortable with. I stay out of other people's way so I don't interfere with anyone else. I don't do PP, CGs, or CZs. All I want is to have combat at the level I want when I do choose to do combat. I had that option BEFORE 2.1.
Eventually, all players, especially the Hardcore gamers, will get to the point where the combat is easy. FD (and specifically SJA) can't just keep making the game harder just because some have beaten the challenge. The AI was fine before 2.1. If they have now nerfed it back, then they need to leave it alone.

 

[Von Shadow]

We just seem to have some naff behavior still .... Clippers and FAS NPC's still seem to love to 'scan you' by ramming and then also ram during combat .... yes its legitimate tactic but tiresome

 

[Lucius-Darcia]

I suggest this.
Kill every cmdr you come across. It WILL make you feel better.
And if FD ever do give us those fight worthy npcs back, just keep killing cmdrs anyway.
The price to pay has to be severe for taking those npcs away. [mad]

The NPC's from fresh 2.1 (beta) weren't a challenge. They were only the same brain-dead ones stuffed with unbelievable superpower weapons with infinite ammo, insta-mimicry abilitys and cheats like 20 modules in a python.
This wasn't somehow fair or challenging or fun at all.

You are like......sry but i have no words for this behavior that wouldn't break the forum rules [downcast]

Why do you think PK will solve anything? Why do you punish players like yourself for being unsatisfied with this game?

Sry no words. I just hope that you grow up in the future

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Players are in general even less a challenge than AI.

 

[Spaceburger]

Players are in general even less a challenge than AI.

I think your trying to fight the wrong players

I was fighting an NPC FAS last night, went on for about 10-15 minutes, I underestimated his hull strength lol but it didn't seem like much of a challenge as he wasn't shooting at me, so I sat still for a few seconds to see what he would do and *Boom!* oh ok he was using cannons! I just didn't see the projectiles flying past me on my old monitor haha

If you find the npcs too easy try taking on larger ships in something small and cheap. It's a ton of fun and no worries about rebuy if it goes horribly wrong.

 

[Riverside]

The reality is that the AI in Beta 4 was actually well gauged to the levels of the players who would most likely encounter them. The only problem was that the rank of many players was obtained via farming, not genuine skill (and I include myself in that), which is why so many people got salty when 2.1 was released.

I thought 2.1 Beta4 was okay too, albeit I didn't have the experience of living with it day to day as we've all had since 2.1 released.

I understand where you're coming from with regard to the combat ranks, but any Elite target can be achieved in different ways, of which 'farming' is a perfectly valid one. All three are arbitrarily large targets to aim for, how you achieve them is up to you.

For Trade rank, you can find a half decent AB run & grind it out endlessly, or you can run high paying missions, you don't have to fully understand the intricacies of the BGS to do it, but naturally you learn some stuff along the way & the more you learn the more effectively you can min/max the game.

It's the same with Combat. There is a minimum standard, but after that it's more about endurance & tenacity than outright skill, and there are plenty of Cmdrs at all levels of ability who either believe the effort is too much or of little value to them because it's such a high target.

Any Elite rank is (and should remain) an achievable target, provided they stick with it & persist. I believe some on this board are putting the Elite combat rank on a pedestal & thinking it should be based purely on skill. But even the best pilot will not be ranked Elite if they only killed 200 ships.

My issue with the 2.1 change was that the skill bar was raised long after release, and that bugs were allowed into the game that failed hard rather than fail safe. To me it was a poor decision to change the game this much, this late into development, and lacked respect for a significant section of the playerbase long after they generously funded that very development.

I'd like every Cmdr at every level of ability to be able to find a challenge, if they are prepared to put the time in & actually find that challenge. Then you get the reward of fun gameplay both finding it and beating it, instead of the one size fits all approach of having it simply come to the player & expecting them to be up to the task.

 

[Geist]

Maybe you Got good?

 

[Leper Messiah]

Jesus H christ people.........different skill levels......why does no-one comprehend this??

do you honestly think it's fair for a pub football team to play Chelsea? Or for a womens team to play a mans team, or a childs team to play an adults team? Elite's problem is the lack of selectable and customisable difficulty. THAT would keep most people happy instead of this incessant complaining back and forth all the sodding time.

Thank GOD for NMS.

 

[Shaamaan]

Jesus H christ people.........different skill levels......why does no-one comprehend this??

do you honestly think it's fair for a pub football team to play Chelsea? Or for a womens team to play a mans team, or a childs team to play an adults team? Elite's problem is the lack of selectable and customisable difficulty. THAT would keep most people happy instead of this incessant complaining back and forth all the sodding time.

Thank GOD for NMS.

Well, there are some issues with this.

Is one treats ED as an MMO (which it is... partially... kind of... in a way...) then there's no way to implement any kind of "difficulty" setting, because you assume right off the bat that everyone's playing together. But that's not really true, because you have solo / group mode, which could very well have a difficulty setting... but then the PvP / multiplayer crowd would be up in arms whining that some people are playing the game on easy mode.

Personally, if someone wants a challenge, they can always go to a RES and attack a few AI wings at the same time. There - instant difficulty.

 

[Suohhen]

Well, there are some issues with this.

Is one treats ED as an MMO (which it is... partially... kind of... in a way...) then there's no way to implement any kind of "difficulty" setting, because you assume right off the bat that everyone's playing together. But that's not really true, because you have solo / group mode, which could very well have a difficulty setting... but then the PvP / multiplayer crowd would be up in arms whining that some people are playing the game on easy mode.

Personally, if someone wants a challenge, they can always go to a RES and attack a few AI wings at the same time. There - instant difficulty.

It was always a silly argument. Why would I care how easy or how hard another player worked to progress in this game when even if I were to play in open, I would probably not see the majority of the cmdrs in the game. This game definitely should have had difficulty controls at least for solo/player groups. And for open, have one high difficulty setting for all. If you choose open, then you are accepting the tougher npcs.

 

[Spaceburger]

It was always a silly argument. Why would I care how easy or how hard another player worked to progress in this game when even if I were to play in open, I would probably not see the majority of the cmdrs in the game. This game definitely should have had difficulty controls at least for solo/player groups. And for open, have one high difficulty setting for all. If you choose open, then you are accepting the tougher npcs.

That would have been good but then I feel like the rewards for missions and bounties should scale with the difficulty otherwise most players would have no reason to play open, or hard mode other than for the challenge itself.

The way I look at it is you choose the difficulty as you set up your ship and outfitting. Want a challenge? Go for rails and d class shields. Want easier mode? Stack a ton of HRPS, shield boosters and gimballed weapons.
Unfortunately new players dont get that choice.

 

[Stigbob]

The difficulty setting in elite is dictated by choosing where you go. If a compromised nav beacon is too harsh stay out, until you have a better ship and more practice. Same goes for the different types of combat zones and res sites.

I'll happily solo a pirate wing and usually don't even lose shields, but I'm always prepared to pull a Sir Robin maneuver.

If you learn to escape effectively you can pick and choose your fights, the insurance screen becomes optional then.

 

[Suohhen]

The difficulty setting in elite is dictated by choosing where you go. If a compromised nav beacon is too harsh stay out, until you have a better ship and more practice. Same goes for the different types of combat zones and res sites.

I'll happily solo a pirate wing and usually don't even lose shields, but I'm always prepared to pull a Sir Robin maneuver.

If you learn to escape effectively you can pick and choose your fights, the insurance screen becomes optional then.

You shouldn't have to play that way if you don't want to. Give people a choice over their game environment. If you want an instance where you face more dangers, then you can choose it. If want to travel any place without having to pull a "Sir Robin" you can choose that too. People can choose a harder game for the reward having a better game experience for themselves. That experience does not nor should be forced on anyone when it doesn't have to be. Any good business that can give their customers more choice, should do just that.

 

[jasonbarron]

You shouldn't have to play that way if you don't want to. Give people a choice over their game environment. If you want an instance where you face more dangers, then you can choose it. If want to travel any place without having to pull a "Sir Robin" you can choose that too. People can choose a harder game for the reward having a better game experience for themselves. That experience does not nor should be forced on anyone when it doesn't have to be. Any good business that can give their customers more choice, should do just that.

That's odd. You agree with what Stigbob is saying, but still manage to make it sound like you disagree?

 

[fantasmic]

We just seem to have some naff behavior still .... Clippers and FAS NPC's still seem to love to 'scan you' by ramming and then also ram during combat .... yes its legitimate tactic but tiresome

I haven't experienced a single scan-ram since 2.1 dropped, but yes they ram quite often in combat with the bigger ships.

It's an intentional shield breaking tactic, and one that I very much approve of the larger ships using.