2.2's Instant Ship and Module Transport - Yay or Nay?

[Zesty Crab Legs]

Probably because anyone who uses will be able to instantly summon their optimal ship with a heavily time invested build (module sourcing, Engineer modification) to a location (that the ship could not necessarily reach dependent on its jump range) and "interact" with others in this multi-player game.

Multiplayer is opt-in anyway. And you can opt-out anytime during combat by logging out to avoid all consequences. The integrity of fairness went our the airlock a long time ago.

What game are you talking about? There is no single player game within Elite Dangerous. Everything you do effects everyone in game no matter what mode you are in, and therefore a feature like this affects every player any time it is used.

Pssst... It's a multiplayer game too!

You guys can go ahead and keep pretending that's true, but it's really not.

 

[Lucifer Hate]

Just a quick shot.. what is if the player could decide a certain time/credits ratio? So the poor guys could still use this feature but will have to accept a (much?) longer delay while the rich pilots can have their almost instant transfer - for an instantly insane amount of credits of course. [hehe]

By a simple slider. Coding would probably not so simple...

On that I also disagree as money does not change the fact that it reduces the gameplay of planning and flying the right ship to the place you want it to be. I am against any ship transfer really as people will be able to fly taxis anyplace and avoid an threat (AI or Player) to their primary ship then call it in complete safety which others said helps to hurt certain professions that are cornerstone professions this game was advertised with. They will also be able to have ships at an area that jump ranges of those ships make it impossible to have there without the time to make a trip. It completely removes the need to think of how to spec your primary ship when it comes to things like jump distance and fuel as their FSD is now a moot point as well as now no need to use fuel scoops on that ship anymore freeing another module to be put in that the ship would not be able to have if it was not for this handwavium mechanic being put in. But if we have to have this there should be a time factor very close to what it takes to fly their manually and still expensive as it keeps the primary ship 100% safe and that there is an advantage worth paying for if you want to transport the ships.

 

[master_xean]

On that I also disagree as money does not change the fact that it reduces the gameplay of planning and flying the right ship to the place you want it to be. I am against any ship transfer really as people will be able to fly taxis anyplace and avoid an threat (AI or Player) to their primary ship then call it in complete safety which others said helps to hurt certain professions that are cornerstone professions this game was advertised with. They will also be able to have ships at an area that jump ranges of those ships make it impossible to have there without the time to make a trip. It completely removes the need to think of how to spec your primary ship when it comes to things like jump distance and fuel as their FSD is now a moot point as well as now no need to use fuel scoops on that ship anymore freeing another module to be put in that the ship would not be able to have if it was not for this handwavium mechanic being put in. But if we have to have this there should be a time factor very close to what it takes to fly their manually and still expensive as it keeps the primary ship 100% safe and that there is an advantage worth paying for if you want to transport the ships.

I don't know if you saw but they confirmed that the ship transfer thing wouldn't be mandatory or compulsory.

So if you enjoy flying all your ships back and forth or whatever, you can still keep doing that.

Hope this helped clear it up.

 

[Zesty Crab Legs]

On that I also disagree as money does not change the fact that it reduces the gameplay of planning and flying the right ship to the place you want it to be. I am against any ship transfer really as people will be able to fly taxis anyplace and avoid an threat (AI or Player) to their primary ship then call it in complete safety which others said helps to hurt certain professions that are cornerstone professions this game was advertised with. They will also be able to have ships at an area that jump ranges of those ships make it impossible to have there without the time to make a trip. It completely removes the need to think of how to spec your primary ship when it comes to things like jump distance and fuel as their FSD is now a moot point as well as now no need to use fuel scoops on that ship anymore freeing another module to be put in that the ship would not be able to have if it was not for this handwavium mechanic being put in. But if we have to have this there should be a time factor very close to what it takes to fly their manually and still expensive as it keeps the primary ship 100% safe and that there is an advantage worth paying for if you want to transport the ships.

Good. Those mechanics all suck and are unfun anyway.

 

[Lucifer Hate]

I don't know if you saw but they confirmed that the ship transfer thing wouldn't be mandatory or compulsory.

So if you enjoy flying all your ships back and forth or whatever, you can still keep doing that.

Hope this helped clear it up.

Did you even read what I said , because if you did you would know your statement does nothing to clear it up

 

[master_xean]

Good. Those mechanics all suck and are unfun anyway.

Exactly, the biggest criticism of ED by far is all the pointless time sinks/ sabotaged quality of life stuff.

Ship transfer is the single best change made to the game since it's been released, by a wide margin.

 

[Captain Cthulu]

The solution is simple. Instant Ship/Module transfer. Anyone who doesn't want it to be instant can set their own timer on their phone or some such.

Why do you care to dictate how other people play a single player game?

Agreed. And that's pretty much all that needs to be said. I didn't pay $100 for this game so that i could have arbitrary timers that exist only because some ultra-nerds can't stand the fact that other people want to play the game slightly differently.

 

[master_xean]

Yeah I read through this thread and i'm PRETTY SURE its been confirmed now that if you don't want to use the ship transfer feature, you don't have to use it and can instead do what you like to do.

This fact being true, it's very difficult to see how this is anything other than a trolling thread.

 

[kofeyh]

Let's try and pin down your POV/comments?

Why? You aren't reading them. You are assuming I am saying one thing or another. I cannot simply be clearer than "artificial timers suck".

That's it. I gave an example where time can elapse without a commander having to wait. In fact I gave three. All were incredible simple and clear.

Meanwhile you are trying to retcon or force that into a timer based mechanic and seem confused? Don't do that. It's pretty simple. No timers. That's the point. No waiting. Waiting is not immersive.

Timers are a lazy option. They break up gameplay. They are not engaging. There is nothing immersive. We do not buy and play the game to sit and wait.

Just stop, Neil. Stop. I don't need you to tell me what I said. I know what I said. I am a bloke and yet you seem to be mansplaining everything to me? I gave three crystal clear examples.

I think it will be very important for everyone who has beta access to give the mechanic a go first, before demanding it all be replaced with lazy timers.

Because how can it be compared, otherwise?

I believe it will be very popular. And nowhere near as earth shatteringly distructive as feared.

And quite rightly, the developer will take feedback on that. Try it. See if you can break it. Everyone else who has access will.

It will become very clear very quickly if this is a molehill. Or not. 7k pages of imagined fears suggests it probably is much more of a molehill than mountain.

Let's test the theory. And be sensible about any changes.

 

[Brian of Ardagh]

Agreed. And that's pretty much all that needs to be said. I didn't pay $100 for this game so that i could have arbitrary timers that exist only because some ultra-nerds can't stand the fact that other people want to play the game slightly differently.

You don't even see the irony in your own words.

I didn't pay over $100 on both the PC and Xbox for 2 copies of this game so that I could have magic added to a Sci-Fi game only because some people who can't plan ahead want to play the game slightly differently.

The Elite series is a nerdy game for ultra nerdy people. Dare I say it but David Braben is probably nerdier than I am and I once knew more about Star Trek than Phillip J Fry! BTW, if you get that reference you are an ultra-nerd!

 

[kofeyh]

You don't even see the irony in your own words. I didn't pay over $100 on both the PC and Xbox for 2 copies of this game so that I could have magic added to a Sci-Fi game only because some people who can't plan ahead want to play the game slightly differently.

Elite: Game of Timers, isn't what anyone signed up for, either. Meaningful mechanics, sandbox, and potential, is. If anything, a review is potentially required, but we simply cannot review and understand the thing without first actually knowing and experiencing the thing.

It's important the proposed changes are tested to the fullest potential, before an entire mechanic is cleared. Theory is still just theory, until it is put into practice. One cannot compare without a base line. This is simple logic.

Frontier itself realises there is more than one way to do this, and there has been some internal discussion around it. All very healthy. It's important to explore the options and for commanders to also work through this change. The developer has, rightly, indicated it will look at the results and consider feedback; just as they, internally, worked through the concept. This is very important. And healthy.

Let us see what the theory does in practice, and how it does, or does not, survive the rigors of testing.

 

[Brian of Ardagh]

Elite: Game of Timers, isn't what anyone signed up for, either. Meaningful mechanics, sandbox, and potential, is. If anything, a review is potentially required, but we simply cannot review and understand the thing without first actually knowing and experiencing the thing.

It's important the proposed changes are tested to the fullest potential, before an entire mechanic is cleared. Theory is still just theory, until it is put into practice. One cannot compare without a base line. This is simple logic.

Frontier itself realises there is more than one way to do this, and there has been some internal discussion around it. All very healthy. It's important to explore the options and for commanders to also work through this change. The developer has, rightly, indicated it will look at the results and consider feedback; just as they, internally, worked through the concept. This is very important. And healthy.

Let us see what the theory does in practice, and how it does, or does not, survive the rigors of testing.

Where did I mention timers? Although I think most players are accustomed to timers, they can be found on most mission boards.

There really are only 3 ways to program ship transfers in game:

1. Instant, which shortcuts in-game "reality"
2. Simulated delay, which retains in-game "reality" by approximating the normal transit time to a degree depending on how "real" you wish to make the delay.
3. Procedural delay, which programmatically creates the delay by actually transferring the ship by in-game methods such as NPC or bulk transport delivery methods.

Instant is quick and dirty but sacrifices "reality". Procedural delay is extremely difficult to implement but true to the one-way delay you'd get if an NPC delivered from one shipyard to another. Only simulated delay can approximate the delay to retain any semblance of in-game reality while also being relatively resource sparing.

I can see instant supporting summoning and/or send ahead. Simulated delay could do both and could also add point to point but might be difficult to re-route. Procedural delay could probably support any kind of transit choices but would incur greater client/server resource requirements.

There are plenty of things in this game that break reality but it's a sci-fi game so as long as the in game rules are adhered to its "believable"

There are also plenty of things in this game that shortcut reality for gameplay reasons. Those things have been discussed quite a bit so I won't belabor the point.

While I don't speak for everyone that is against instant ship transfers, I think a major concern is a sense that there's a creeping tendency towards making the game more "accessible" and less "believable" given the established in-game rules.

It's like the complaints about how long SC takes. Currently it takes as long as it does because of how it was programmed, that programming dictates what the in-game physics are that control FSD operation. What's the point of having any in-game physics if you'll just throw them out to make the game more accessible.

If you don't define the rules of the universe in a game like ED you can justify anything. Then it just becomes a fantasy game not sci-fi.

 

[master_xean]

You don't even see the irony in your own words.

I didn't pay over $100 on both the PC and Xbox for 2 copies of this game so that I could have magic added to a Sci-Fi game only because some people who can't plan ahead want to play the game slightly differently.

The Elite series is a nerdy game for ultra nerdy people. Dare I say it but David Braben is probably nerdier than I am and I once knew more about Star Trek than Phillip J Fry! BTW, if you get that reference you are an ultra-nerd!

How many times do you have to be told before you understand it?

If you don't want to use the ship transfer feature you don't have to use it. It isn't compulsory or mandatory.

You can make your own choices about what you do!

 

[Khelder]

While I don't speak for everyone that is against instant ship transfers, I think a major concern is a sense that there's a creeping tendency towards making the game more "accessible" and less "believable" given the established in-game rules.

I generally agree with you but query the use of the word "accessible".

We're not talking about players who barely have any time and make do with the best (and likely only) ship they can. This feature is aimed at players who have multiple ships spec'd for different roles. It is aimed at players who want to skip the "time sinks" and get to the "fun" parts. It is aimed at avoiding playing Elite: Dangerous so that you can play Elite: Mini-games.

That's not making the game "accessible", that is just changing (diminishing, in my view) the game.

 

[kofeyh]

While I don't speak for everyone that is against instant ship transfers, I think a major concern is a sense that there's a creeping tendency towards making the game more "accessible" and less "believable" given the established in-game rules.

This is actually the salient point; it's not instant transfer that's the issue; it's the incessant tug of war between developers who wish to have a profitable game that caters for a wide audience, and those who must have a game that is as realistic and immersive and, frankly, time consuming as possible. That's not a bad thing. To become enthralled and engaged to the point where reality blurs.

Ultimately though, frontier is building a game, and they have to balance investment of time; do they spend much of it in mechanical process, or engaging content?

I'd prefer a better solution; I just don't see one where it can be done in an interactive way, stay logistically relevant and also honour both the genre, and the players time. Our time is finite, and we have only so many hours; what we are doing within those minutes is important. This is fact part of the thrust of the pushback on engineers. It didn't (and arguably doesn't) respect commanders time. It just fills with repetition.

Frontier has to sometimes produce content that is in "the spirit" of the thing, not "the law of the thing" because it's cutting out a non-trivial percentage of their player base to stick to the law in all things.

I am all for reason and logic and this is pretty much a cornerstone of any comment or statement I may make. I like consistency and logic and things working in a way that's contextually relevant. But a bit like death, there's nothing really interactive about that once it's happened; it just becomes various creative ways to stop engagement until it starts again. So I am prepared to give some ground in one aspect, to gain in another.

Ship transfer is in danger of becoming an interruptive process; 'the letter of the law' rather than 'the spirit of the law'. Not everyone is going to RP an interruption. In fact interruptions typically achieve the opposite. Frustration. Endless repetition of delayed mechanics. This should sound familiar. It's happened before.

 

[master_xean]

I may be off base here but I sincerely, very sincerely doubt that David Braben or anyone from the team making ED is going to come to your house and bust in the door and kick over your furniture and scream and shout and put a pistol to the side of your head and tell you to use the ship transfer thing.

It's not going to happen man.

If you dont like transferring your ships with the new thing, nobody is going to make you do it. You don't have to do anything you dont want to.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Good? Might that not get people to, you know, interact more with eachother?

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It's just shocking to me that there would be such a display over something meant to save you time, something that you don't even have to use if you don't want to.

It's absolute madness.

Of course it is optional for an individual to use - however the use that others make of it will affect, to some extent, those who chose not to make use of the feature.

Interact is such a vague term - and, from reading the forums, not all interactions are welcomed by the target.

 

[kofeyh]

When it comes to time and "wasting our time" then people tend to ignore that in a space game time is the major factor to give us a feel for the really long distances. These time sinks are simply necessary - not in general but in a space game that is reaching for a minimum of believability it is.

There are many things frontier have provided as time sinks. They aren't even remotely believable. The entirety of engineers is a time sink; most of it is endless repetition. This isn't serving a believable outcome. It's a time sink to keep players in game. Nothing more.

Wasted time, in of itself, does not "believability" create. Delayed ship transfer is wasting time, not creating the engaging experiences people seem to want.

 

[Eymerich]

Instant trasfer doesn't give you anything more that is already in game.

The only difference is the time sinked in such activities which is largely reduced to allow player spend his time in more engaging and fin activities

Serious man stop it....

 

[kofeyh]

Interact is such a vague term - and, from reading the forums, not all interactions are welcomed by the target.

Have you ever watched a microwave pop corn? It's performing an action. There is a timer. Is this immersive and engaging? How can you make microwaving popcorn, engaging? I mean it makes some noise, there is some steam. This is perhaps exciting and enthralling for perhaps one or two iterations. How about by iteration ten?

At some point, the realisation must occur that it's just a microwave, it's just exciting molecules and the act of doing this, isn't the actual goal. I don't really have to understand how a magnatron works, to pop corn; the lack of knowing doesn't prevent the action occurring, it will pop the corn regardless. Knowing how the 'magic' happens, doesn't really create a more fulfilling experience.

Because ultimately, we're not using the microwave to experience a fully immersive microwave experience - we're using a microwave because it's simply a tool to deliver tasty pop corn.

Eventually, one stops really thinking deeply about the microwave. It's a tool for a task. Namely creating tasty popcorn. The actual goal and aim is to, preferably, enjoy the outcome, no? There is no 'journey' and no vast experience, because we are simply observing. The best part is when the microwave goes *ding* and there is what we actually want. The pop corn. Mmmm. Tasty.

And after a while; we won't sit there and cheer as the timer elapses, and the corn pops. We'll ignore the microwave and go get a cup of coffee, or queue up that netflix episode. So it no longer matters how exciting the microwave is - we just don't care.

Ship transfer is much the same. We're simply waiting for the pop corn. You can delay this, but that doesn't really enhance the outcome; because the goal is to eat tasty popcorn, not be enthralled by a timer, count down with it, cheer when the microwave chimes and so on.

This translates to people leaving the game, or sitting at the menu idle; this means any number of commanders are no-longer playing elite; they're just waiting for the popcorn. I think that's the message Frontier is trying to get across. Sometimes, it's more about the pop corn, than the microwave.