Walking in stations/spaceships + boarding

[Fosdyke]

Space legs will bring another layer of immersion and gameplay to the game. The possibility of new mission situations (abduct special npc/capture a pirate/stealing a special tech/alien tech for example with boarding actions, hijack a ship for it's cargo.
Some espionnage/covert mission in the powerplay context.
Rescue mission to help a stranded pilot with eva/reparing hull, scavenging ships to get some loot/extra tech.

 

[NeilF]

It would make sense to release space legs first, and *then* atmo planets. For the sake of immersion, mastering the use of player and NPC people is a crucial prerequisite if you want believable, populated words to land on!

My prediction is that if Space Legs is season 3, they would roll it out in space-leggy increments, such as:

Season 3: Elite Dangerous: One Small Step

3.1 Station Tours

Walk around in the stations, saying hello to different NPCs and unlocking special missions and equipment.

3.2 Pirates and Marines

FPS mechanics. Board and steal someone else's ship, at the cost of it being legally uninsurable! Civil wars can now happen within stations, as you take part in the battle to assume control of a station of surface installation.

3.3

Close Encounters

Meet and fight against alien NPCs.

Can you imagine how much development work this is to make it in anyway interesting?

And can you explain what you mean by, "Walk around in the stations, saying hello to different NPCs?" If this a look and press a key? Or would you hold it for a while?

 

[Commandeur_Brin]

Can you imagine how much development work this is to make it in anyway interesting?

As much as I would like to agree with you, last Gamescom announcements were so underwhelming that I can only hope that the dev time we are clearly not seeing is put to use in developing such new gameplay and that we will soon see why there were quiet for so long.

 

[CMDR M. Lehman]

Can you imagine how much development work this is to make it in anyway interesting?

And can you explain what you mean by, "Walk around in the stations, saying hello to different NPCs?" If this a look and press a key? Or would you hold it for a while?

In my head, it would go somewhat like a regular RPG. Walk up, press a key, and different conversational options will pop up. It's simple, familiar, and immersive.

I'm happy to concede that for players who have been playing the entire game from their ship's consoles, the idea of getting out, walking around, and chatting up NPCs in an RPG style would seem like an extremely slow, frustrating way to do business after years of instant gratification. If I were to be suddenly hired tomorrow by FDev to craft the on-foot mission system, I would keep the insta-mission board for those who like the in-and-out way of doing things- but also make it worth it to visit the station's security office or seedy bar. The truly lucrative missions would be gained by speaking to the right NPCs after you've upped your reputation with their factions. You would have a conversation, accept the mission, and go do it, much like we saw in the SC demo from Gamescon.

For example, talking to an Authority officer at the security office would bring up a few pirate-hunting missions. Talking to a merchant would bring up a cargo-hauling missions. Talking to the shady guy at the bar would bring up a juicy assassination or piracy mission. Talking to a technician in a corridor could spawn a "please source six tons of copper" mission. Talking to a civilian in the lounge could lead to a passenger mission. Other times, it's just gossip about local or galactic news. Other times, people just want to be left alone (depending on your local rep or mission availability). Would all this take time? You bet it would. Is it for everyone? Nope. Will efforts be made to have the station walkabout be worth the player's while? That's the goal. But that's the beauty of the system. You don't have to actually leave your ship if you don't want to. If you want to play like the game never progressed past season 1, you can.

BUT- I recognize that even this approach has its flaws. For one thing, we're talking about thousands and thousands of locations, each with their own interiors and NPC- and (most importantly) probably a limited budget for voice actors. So Frontier would probably have to either really go crazy on the sheer quantity of voice talent that it hires and uses for the NPC interaction, or it would have to find a way to procedurally generate "male" and "female"-type voices for the many thousands of mission-giving NPCs. So there's that. But even that is more a logistics and budgetary concern than a technical one. How does one generate interesting and engaging NPCs for the absolutely insane number of land-able location in Elite? I don't know. I suspect that the answer will be found in pushing procedural generation to its absolute limits in both NPC generation and voiced dialogue assignment.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Look at what you've suggested there. The spectrum and scope of it... It's akin to a high budget FPS.... And this is for a game where piracy hasn't even been fleshed out.

And consider we haven't in truth had any gameplay mechanics (of any depth) added in over 12 months. We're all still doing basically the same as we've been doing for over a year! 2.2? Basically doing the same now with a fighter! 2.3? Basically doing the same now with a group on a ship? Where are the improvements to the actually gameplay we can take part in? The improvements to the depth of the background sim?

And here we are talking about adding a fully fleshed out first person module when the core game is still so very thin after nearly two years...


In case it's not clear, I'd like them to do more of what I was expecting from the Kickstarter pitch before adding in a FPS.

I am not sure what you are asking for really. Most games are just going from a-b in different guises.

Yep walking will be similar but in very different environment. I see nothing wrong with that, it adds to the current gameplay.

What do you mean by added gameplay mechanics? What added gameplay mechanocs do you want in the game?

 

[Sara Lyons]

You can be sure that FD would never release space legs in that condition, I believe FD would not let a glitchy mess like that out the door and when we get it it will be a lot more polished.

This season has my hope of a polished release of things at slim to none

 

[bummer6]

So, hopefully me posting this wont result in some kind of civil war, but Star Citizen actually has some neat ideas when it comes to multi-crew and stuff. The guy in this video explains it pretty well, even though he seems a bit too optimistic all things considered.
[video=youtube;JOqAu1YKxXQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOqAu1YKxXQ[/video]
Just something to consider since I personally think it looks really, really cool for what it is. I hope ED will get something similar in the future, but perhaps with a bit more polish.

 

[lysan]

Another game that did it, so SC is not the only one.

[video=youtube;Trxgo32nGNU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=Trxgo32nGNU[/video]

And another one....

[video=youtube;8LzUyxT4z2M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LzUyxT4z2M[/video]

 

[frostypaw]

In my head, it would go somewhat like a regular RPG. Walk up, press a key, and different conversational options will pop up. It's simple, familiar, and immersive.

I'm happy to concede that for players who have been playing the entire game from their ship's consoles, the idea of getting out, walking around, and chatting up NPCs in an RPG style would seem like an extremely slow, frustrating way to do business after years of instant gratification.

You over simplify there and the suggestion that this is people just wanting instant gratification is slightly insulting.

Remember this has been done before - other games have had options like this, it's not gone well.

If I were to be suddenly hired tomorrow by FDev to craft the on-foot mission system, I would keep the insta-mission board for those who like the in-and-out way of doing things- but also make it worth it to visit the station's security office or seedy bar. The truly lucrative missions would be gained by speaking to the right NPCs after you've upped your reputation with their factions. You would have a conversation, accept the mission, and go do it, much like we saw in the SC demo from Gamescon
[....]
I suspect that the answer will be found in pushing procedural generation to its absolute limits in both NPC generation and voiced dialogue assignment.

Here's your problem - this sounds nice and looks mega-cools in a single player scripted demo mission but think of the multiplayer and the queue of people waiting to all have near identical conversations with this 'special' NPC - this is a pitfall other MMO's have fallen into and it makes it kinda laughable as everyone politely queues to talk to the secret black market guy at the back of the 'seedy bar' (because there's ALWAYS a seedy bar)

It's cheese-fest extreme stuff that shoots out all it's potential interest in the first few missions because generating the VAST VAST VAST amount of content for you to be able to have idle chats with NPCs around all these stations is just spectacular. People are still totally head-in-the-clouds about procedural generation - there's not going to be any fully voiced dialogues for a long long time - you'll be far better off learning about what can actually be done with the technology so you aren't so disappointed. Just ask the NMS players

 

[ChrisT]

As much as I would like to agree with you, last Gamescom announcements were so underwhelming that I can only hope that the dev time we are clearly not seeing is put to use in developing such new gameplay and that we will soon see why there were quiet for so long.

I liked what I saw at Gamescom, It appears to be delivering what Frontier had promised i.e. ship launched figthers, the MAIN feature, plus a lot of other bits and bobs. It is what it is. For me, considering I play solo, it is at least a feature Ill be able to make use of.

Is it the sole representation of all the development that Frontier have on the boil? We'll you'd have to be pretty naive to think that.

What happened to the people that produced the Planet generation system?
What are they working on now, beyond the Vulcanism (it appears) will be in 2.2. Im guessing atmospheric R&D...

Commander Creator. Do you think work on that was parked, so 2.2 can be completed?
Why have a face generator, JUST for Commanders. Wouldn't you use it for all visible NPC, like the ones we dont see anywhere (get my drift?)

The truth is, on a project like ED, work will be carried in parallel on many different aspects of the project.

All of this, will be a pyramid, where some features need to be developed first, so later features can leverage them.

 

[lysan]

You over simplify there and the suggestion that this is people just wanting instant gratification is slightly insulting.

Remember this has been done before - other games have had options like this, it's not gone well.

Here's your problem - this sounds nice and looks mega-cools in a single player scripted demo mission but think of the multiplayer and the queue of people waiting to all have near identical conversations with this 'special' NPC - this is a pitfall other MMO's have fallen into and it makes it kinda laughable as everyone politely queues to talk to the secret black market guy at the back of the 'seedy bar' (because there's ALWAYS a seedy bar)

It's cheese-fest extreme stuff that shoots out all it's potential interest in the first few missions because generating the VAST VAST VAST amount of content for you to be able to have idle chats with NPCs around all these stations is just spectacular. People are still totally head-in-the-clouds about procedural generation - there's not going to be any fully voiced dialogues for a long long time - you'll be far better off learning about what can actually be done with the technology so you aren't so disappointed. Just ask the NMS players

I totally agree with that, however a clever mission designer would create a way to hide the fact that you need voice for everything.

The Shady contact could greet you related to you reputation, maybe you will need 3 types of greetings, and in those 3 types you need 10 variations.

The mission itself could be handed with a type of data transfer to your gadget attached to you arm or whatever. There you will read what you need to do. When you leave you get a short goodbye by the NPC by voice. This way you don't need to do missions with voice and can keep the text, but you also create the illusion of being in a universe where people actually talk to you.

Voice attack do this in a great way, sure you are hearing the same responses, but with enough variation it works pretty well.

 

[WindWpn]

I agree I'd rather have an AI fly than me I am terrible in combat.

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I'm tired of this "I don't want it. You shouldn't get it." Argument. it will be optional. It doesn't affect you. And more importantly it's happening with your input or not. Don't want it? Fine. Keep that info to yourself. Not one person has not said one reason why it shouldn't be in the game. You want to discuss what would be better? I'm down. want to discuss why walking wouldn't work? I'm down. Want to say it isn't fun for you so no one should get it period. Go away.

I think you misunderstand the post. Its not that its not fun, but rather there is a different option that exactly provides what you seek. Do you have SC on your SSD? If not, recommend you get it. I have ED, SC, and NMS and between SC and ED, its interesting the overlap between the two even now. The SC mobiglass vs the ED station services have so many similarities, even the little UI visual flutters and navigation noises are the same. What you and other describe in their desire for "space legs" is EXACTLY what SC has....exactly!

Again, its not that I "dont want it," but rather I already have it, in a different but similar space game. Why have two games exactly the same? Its a waste of time and resources for FG in ED, plus its a huge effort and frankly a distraction, and honestly/hopefully FG knows this. ED is what it is, and there is plenty of room for growth as a space flight sim. Keep it there and leave the FPS to SC and NMS, or others. ED to me is kind of like the next step from Space Engine (SE) where SE provides the realistic expanse, but does not have gameplay. ED has SE, but includes gameplay in the flight sim and persona build angle. FG/ED and future seasons should stick with this angle. As noted, a new alien enemy will be introduced to the ED galaxy which I am quite looking forward to (one of the main reasons I bought ED among others). It introduces all new missions/experiences with no need for space legs. Further ahead, who knows, but there is plenty of experience yet that could work within the existing FD/ED mechanic of spaceship sim only.

And if you want space legs, and FP experiences described, that is EXACTLY what SC has/is. Become a backer and get it there..., no harm in that you know...

 

[ChrisT]

You're talking huge amount of development here mate. Be realistic. As someone before in this thread said: it would be literally totally new gameplay to develop, a scope of work which many of successfull 1st person shooters were unable carry out. Isn't SRV gameplay really not cool enough for exploring planets?? What is so fun in NMS-alike walking, walking, walking and shooting stuff anyways??? Dull.

Indeed, walking around WOULD bring more emmersion ONLY if it allowed you access to all areas, that make sense. So, thinking of a development pyramid.

If I develop walking, it means I have to deliver access to walk in all areas that make sense, otherwise Im breaking the immersion that I should be facilitating (catch 22..). I also have to deliver compelling new game-play for this new ability. Is this just sight seeing, small samples of FPS, or a full RPG. Maybe even an RPG with FPS combat! (eep....)

Now, if I deliver atmospheric planets, it delivers on an existing, though expanded Engine, and the game does not massively shift in its focus. You still fly a ship, drive a SRV. OK, you can now do so on verdant grassy hills, but... its the same game.

I like exploration, and for me, its one of the key elements of a space game. Going out and finding new, weird, freaky, alien environments, plus those that are more similar to Earth.

So Im guessing, as we already have an in progress planet engine, that atmosphered planets will appear before walking around, as walking builds on atmopsheric planets, and not the other way around.

Walking around, would be the cherry, and a pretty massive cake.

 

[Commandeur_Brin]

Another game that did it, so SC is not the only one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=Trxgo32nGNU

And another one....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LzUyxT4z2M

Never heard about Hellion before... Wow.

I really hope that FD will not drown in this new space game race. It's like they are really calm about it but we'd be more relaxed ourselves if they told us what they are working on.

 

[lysan]

I think you misunderstand the post. Its not that its not fun, but rather there is a different option that exactly provides what you seek. Do you have SC on your SSD? If not, recommend you get it. I have ED, SC, and NMS and between SC and ED, its interesting the overlap between the two even now. The SC mobiglass vs the ED station services have so many similarities, even the little UI visual flutters and navigation noises are the same. What you and other describe in their desire for "space legs" is EXACTLY what SC has....exactly!

Again, its not that I "dont want it," but rather I already have it, in a different but similar space game. Why have two games exactly the same? Its a waste of time and resources for FG in ED, plus its a huge effort and frankly a distraction, and honestly/hopefully FG knows this. ED is what it is, and there is plenty of room for growth as a space flight sim. Keep it there and leave the FPS to SC and NMS, or others. ED to me is kind of like the next step from Space Engine (SE) where SE provides the realistic expanse, but does not have gameplay. ED has SE, but includes gameplay in the flight sim and persona build angle. FG/ED and future seasons should stick with this angle. As noted, a new alien enemy will be introduced to the ED galaxy which I am quite looking forward to (one of the main reasons I bought ED among others). It introduces all new missions/experiences with no need for space legs. Further ahead, who knows, but there is plenty of experience yet that could work within the existing FD/ED mechanic of spaceship sim only.

And if you want space legs, and FP experiences described, that is EXACTLY what SC has/is. Become a backer and get it there..., no harm in that you know...

You don't get the point, ED always had this in the design, SC did not, it was a add on. SC is now trying to be ED with more fidelity *shivers*. PG was not the main component in SC, suddenly it is.
I don't need SC on my SSD, becasue all I want from a space game are right there in the design of ED. Go read the scope from 2012. Sadly SC are now trying to imitate ED instead of being something different, and that was regarding the story and RP value. FD are already working on it, the only question is only if it will be in season 3 or 4.

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Never heard about Hellion before... Wow.

I really hope that FD will not drown in this new space game race. It's like they are really calm about it but we'd be more relaxed ourselves if they told us what they are working on.

That is because they already know what they want, compare to other space games who need to look at "others" to get ideas.

 

[NeilF]

I am not sure what you are asking for really. Most games are just going from a-b in different guises.

Yep walking will be similar but in very different environment. I see nothing wrong with that, it adds to the current gameplay.

What do you mean by added gameplay mechanics? What added gameplay mechanocs do you want in the game?

Layers of game mechanics and back ground sim mechanics that can sit on each other, and create feedback or hopefully emergent gameplay.

eg:-

1) Add in convoy escort missions/mechanics.
2) Add in NPC wingman (even just allocated in some missions) which you can then command to attack this/defend that. (see 1)
3) Allow CMDRs to act as Wingmen in some missions (see 1)
4) Add station blockade mechanics so the back ground sim can put a station in full blockade where CMDRs (& NPCs) can attempt to enforce, break or run it (for extra trade profits). (see 1, 2 & 3).
5) Consider if CQC had been fighter mechanics in the core game. eg: to patrol stations/platforms/capital ships etc (see 1, 2, 3 and 4)
... and so on!
6) Imagine if serious conditions (eg: like a plague) the background sim could kick off blockades etc. Civilians might need evacuating from these stations, so the passenger missions in 2.2 have something more interesting things to feed off, especially if CMDRs/NPCs can escort/protect you etc (see 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5)

Just these sort of mechanics then improve what can also potentially be offered in Community Goals and Powerplay tasks. And of course when 2.2 and 2.3 arrive with you having an additional fighter or a crew of CMDRs on a single ship, again those are made all more interesting in how they fit into those existing (more interesting) mechanics.

And if the Thargoids arrive? Then an more interesting back ground sim can make the most of it with systems falling into chaos thanks to nearby Thargoid attack. Stations can go in to lock down/blockade. Civilians need escorting out under protection while under attack?. Stations/capital ships need fighter escorts/protection... Etc...

We need the depth and variety of the tools in the current game to be increased/improved IMHO. Especially before moving onto other areas that need equal attention and depth (eg: first person).

 

[Commandeur_Brin]

I liked what I saw at Gamescom, It appears to be delivering what Frontier had promised i.e. ship launched figthers, the MAIN feature, plus a lot of other bits and bobs. It is what it is. For me, considering I play solo, it is at least a feature Ill be able to make use of.

Is it the sole representation of all the development that Frontier have on the boil? We'll you'd have to be pretty naive to think that.

What happened to the people that produced the Planet generation system?
What are they working on now, beyond the Vulcanism (it appears) will be in 2.2. Im guessing atmospheric R&D...

Commander Creator. Do you think work on that was parked, so 2.2 can be completed?
Why have a face generator, JUST for Commanders. Wouldn't you use it for all visible NPC, like the ones we dont see anywhere (get my drift?)

The truth is, on a project like ED, work will be carried in parallel on many different aspects of the project.

All of this, will be a pyramid, where some features need to be developed first, so later features can leverage them.

Every argument comes down to the lack of communication from the devs...

We know that there are like 150 people at frontier and what we've seen at Gamescom was underwhelming. It just was. It's like the whole "bookmark main feature" all over again.

They need to show a bit more and more regularly. But they most certainly need to talk and be a lot more transparent with the community.

 

[Sunsol]

Layers of game mechanics and back ground sim mechanics that can sit on each other, and create feedback or hopefully emergent gameplay.

eg:-

1) Add in convoy escort missions/mechanics.
2) Add in NPC wingman (even just allocated in some missions) which you can then command to attack this/defend that. (see 1)
3) Allow CMDRs to act as Wingmen in some missions (see 1)
4) Add station blockade mechanics so the back ground sim can put a station in full blockade where CMDRs (& NPCs) can attempt to enforce, break or run it (for extra trade profits). (see 1, 2 & 3).
5) Consider if CQC had been fighter mechanics in the core game. eg: to patrol stations/platforms/capital ships etc (see 1, 2, 3 and 4)
... and so on!
6) Imagine if serious conditions (eg: like a plague) the background sim could kick off blockades etc. Civilians might need evacuating from these stations, so the passenger missions in 2.2 have something more interesting to feed off. Especially if CMDRs/NPCs can escort/protect you etc (see 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5)

Just these sort of mechanics then improve what can also potentially be offered in Community Goals and Powerplay tasks. And of course when 2.2 and 2.3 arrive with you having an additional fighter or a crew of CMDRs on a single ship, again those are made all more interesting in how they fit into those existing (more interesting) mechanics.

And if the Thargoids arrive? Then an more interesting back ground sim can make the most of it with systems falling into chaos thanks to nearby Thargoid attack. Stations can go in to lock down/blockade. Civilians need escorting out under protection while under attack?. Stations/capital ships need fighter escorts/protection... Etc...

We need the depth and variety of the tools in the current game to be increased/improved IMHO. Especially before moving onto other areas than need equal attention and depth (eg: first person).

Everything you suggested sounds literally like what we already have? How is that depth competition for walking? I would like a lot of what your suggesting but it wouldn't bring anything that isn't already available to the table it's something they could easily add into 2.4 (we have no idea what this is) they have obviously been using their development time creating the ground work for everything so I'm sure legs and it's mechanics have been worked on for a while now. Development time isn't yours to call it wasted so stop using it as an excuse.

Also everything you suggested would be enhanced by legs.

 

[LKx]

Can you imagine how much development work this is to make it in anyway interesting?

For what do you think you'll be paying season passes for?
Mission's system revamp every year?

 

[Zylark]

We need the depth and variety of the tools in the current game to be increased/improved IMHO. Especially before moving onto other areas than need equal attention and depth (eg: first person).

FD is not working on a single track. They are working on multiple. Some is for new features, some are for enhancing old features, some are for fixing bugs. And that is just the programmers. Add to it the graphics artists, sound engineers and other talent working on developing ED.

Why with the next update, the main feature will be ship-based fighters and passenger missions. Yet some old features get a little overhaul, like say volcanism, geysers and more variety in suns and how they are rendered. And more. So whilst I do look forward to space-legs very very much, I would not expect too much from the first iteration of it. It'll probably take them several major updates before it is fully fleshed out. But that is fine.

Now, what I need short term, is a paint-job for my Corvette, and a SRV thingie that can take more than 2 tons of cargo!