The Star Citizen Thread v5

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Game design needs consistency to be effectively developed, a fortiori in such vast and ambitious scope.
It's incredibly challenging though - who could have considered that in an MMO situation on a space station with landing pads with no hangars that the landing pads might all fill up? Or that commandos might hang around and see ships vanishing and appearing out of thin air. Nobody could have seen that coming - they should all have been watching the mo-cap cutscenes inside, it's hardly the dev's fault.
 
It's incredibly challenging though - who could have considered that in an MMO situation on a space station with landing pads with no hangars that the landing pads might all fill up? Or that commandos might hang around and see ships vanishing and appearing out of thin air. Nobody could have seen that coming - they should all have been watching the mo-cap cutscenes inside, it's hardly the dev's fault.
To be fair, the game they planned was not an MMO and was in large part intended to be played on local or private servers.

I haven't insulted you.
Yes you have. Just because you don't have a firm grasp of who said what due to your reliance on strawman arguments, does not mean that you haven't been incredibly insulting this whole time. So I guess we can add that one to the list of lies.

Oh, and you never really answered the question about the game. So let's try to get back on that topic, shall we?
 
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jcrg99

Banned
An experienced PM would know how to build the project up, by involving the right key people, and then take it from there. What CIG/CR did was the typical amature way of gluing stuff together in the garage, and then hope something good will come out of it. The money spend on this project on redoing and experimenting is really truly mindboggling.

I disagree. Roberts and others involved ARE experienced enough and know (already proven in their career) that, if interested, if having the need or good reasons for that, they are able to deliver a project effectively in a timely manner (Wing Commander 4 development was a major example of that).

What people always fail to see, apparently, is that in the Star Citizen case, there is no interest to advance to what should be called a "released" product. It goes against the financial needs that they targeted to this venture and they envision that are possible to get. They know, that are doing something unsustainable in the long term and not capable to compete/stay alive in the game industry market. So, they are focusing on keeping the dream, instead delivering more that will make people realize that what is done/delivered is not so great or groundbreaking or fun as they imagined.

So, they are, in purpose, making it take longer and longer, by using means, strategies, approaches, that a experienced PM, which is also very experienced in one or two Hollywood tricks to deceive investors or actors and keep them believing, of course, is totally capable to do.

Roberts is not this dumb that people are imagining. As well as all those other main executives profiting a lot from this venture. People, from fans to even non-believers, media, etc., are been extremely naive when they look to this whole mess (no offense intended), or some, know what is really happening here, but are too afraid to say in public because reasons.
 
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Again, chill out and stop insulting other users.

Again with a chill out. He is not insulting you he is holding a mirror in your face for you to see your own behavior. We have several pages that show your behavior with assumption and putting words in peoples mouth, and competly ignore the stuff people try to tell you. We have the entire VR discussion for that to show you. If you dont like something you try to offroad it with your assumption in hope to derail it. If that doesnt work you try to tell people to "chill out" or again start with the agenda or hater stuff.
 

JohnMice

Banned
I am not sure if what I am saying is a longer version of what others are saying since I didn't read what they said. I am pretty sure it's a longer version of what I am saying. I would disagree I think for me at least the best space game experience I had so far in my life is Alpha 2.5 and multicrewing with my friend in my Freelancer policing Crusader and assaulting Grim Hex for the wanted public enemy then doing patrol runs around the Yela asteroid to clear it from pirates just to return to the comm arrays and keep them on. Then buying cool new weapons and items from Arccorp and heading back for some FPS action. Talking to people and mingling with the community is just a lot of fun since it's all first person and pretty immersive.

There are bugs but it's not as bad as it was. You can play for hours on straight without running in to huge issues but you can also crash of course. Hence it's an Alpha. Nobody claimes it is a superb product. Well it doesn't matter who and what people say especially here. Since the devs and most of the community aren't here anyway. Don't get this the wrong way btw but no matter if or me like it or not a single fact is that Cloud Imperium Games is here to stay and yes they will have more time and yes they will have more money. The problems of the game are step by step getting removed as the game goes along. If you play each version of SC and read the changelogs or participate with the PTU test server you can see the truth.

There is proper progress on the game. It's just not visible from far away or by people who join in on a free flight now and then. Take the project under the loop and you will see constant iteration and fixing. Most people don't deny bugs or cover CIG from criticism I think. Since you play the game and see the issues there is no way around it. People accept it because this is an Alpha and it always shows signs of getting better.

Btw it's perfectly fine that you don't support or believe in the project but if you want to make real change sadly this forum is not the place to do it. Many backers push CIG for the better from within.



Yea. I mean look at this I worked on a fairly complicated Unreal 4 project and we promised to have a certain vehicular feature to be in back in July 2015. Because our timing and schedule looked like we would have done it until that time. Well let me tell you we released that part July 2016. It was involving a lot of complicated physics which we thought we could tackle with 20 people but it took way longer and was more complex. Btw the complexity I am talking about here is like %800 less than what CIG is attempting to do with Star Citizen



Rumours don't matter much. Yes the current Alpha has it's issues but again it had %300 more issues 8 months ago. Also CIG is working with branches of code that they compile on top of each other. Basically there is a lot of clean up with the new code they are implementing but since there will be a lot of more features there will also be bugs. But there is a good amount of bugfixing and progress going to 2.6 which is coming out next month and only more so for 3.0 at least for the current systems already in place. I doubt that Squadron 42 will come out Q4. The latest I would say is Q2 and that is pushing it. They have everything done except for a few tech hurdles and polishing. But you never know either way when it comes out it needs to be special.



Good points but there is a huge difference between Activision and IW and CIG. Squadron 42 is expected to be a much more character driven and story focused game. It is also the biggest debut of Star Citizen to the general market. There is a lot of pressure on it both by it's backers and the public. Squadron 42 Episode 1 will also set the stage for the next 2 episodes for the coming years. But expect Squadron 42 content to be shown at CitizenCon 2016 next month. I expect to see a live Capital Ship Battle demo. This is just a guess but it is one of the things that they have not shown yet and I have a gut feeling that they might.

In addition Activision and IW are completely corporate profit focused companies that have to get their products out every year to appease their investors and shareholders.



I was not intending to but since I am a part of the community I am just relaying the overall observations. I feel quiet a part of the community is supporting CIG and I say this from interacting with the CIG community everyday. Yes the scope has gone insane and I think backers who worry about CR are right to be concerned. Also CryEngine worries are completely justified too and many arguments were had over this here. But again there is no golden formula for SC since it has never been done before.

That's why I tell people who want to back the project that they should wait further since there is no more content than 3-10 hours in it at the moment. Refunds are expected since this project has been delayed for such a long time but is still running resulting in loss of trust and of course backing

About your question on Tech Development here is what CIG finished in total.
  • Local Physics Grids
  • Actual Physical Flight Model
  • Damage Model
  • Zones System
  • 64 bit map coordinates + local 32 bit camera interaction
  • Actual Clothing system
  • Zero-g-Free flight + interaction with areas with working gravitation (landing, collision, getting up)
  • Mulitplayer-enabled multi-crew ships
  • Massive technical optimisation to get it runing at all (which is where we currently stand) in all possible aspects
  • Optimisation of the build-server (they got the time to create a build down from nearly a day to fractions of hours (and threw a lot of Hardware at it, currently it is 812 GB and 500 to 900 cores)).
  • Outfitting the offices with awesome networking (and 1 Gbit/s or so cross-studio lines)
I think they still have to build tech for at least 1,5 more years but after that point it should be pretty much done. The major rework is the new StarNetwork network refactor and using of a shard based single instance system that will come online next year.

I agree that Star Marine was their worst example especially since they did a lot of marketing on it and then had to bail. It made them look quiet bad.

I think they talk about a lot of detail at their ATV episodes on how things work. Take a look at the last 2 episodes for example. Like Cargo and Salvage. Was explained quiet a bit. Also the Cargo system was outlined a couple of years back with a post. The footage for 2.0 last year also matches with the gameplay this year I would say. Same with the damage tech or the components system. The thing is I think CIG is a dev driven but community influenced company. But their community influence only goes from the QA and feedback loops they have with the devs.

Reverse The Verse and Forum Interactions with PTU - Evocatii and Eearly Tester interactions are strong. But to get your stuff the CIG devs you really need to reach out. You just can't do it simply from here. If you going to post something on the forum let's say you gotta make a real post pages and pages long with statistics and why to things don't work or how they could. Those things get read. A usual outcry is skimmed through but a detailed post gets hardly overlooked.

There is a lot to do but I think that there are more than 15 ships in the game already and for an Alpha that's a lot. The profession focused ships will start appearing in 3.0 and after since they need the professions to have a role. Also Squadron 42 has all the ship focus as of this point.

Oh thanks for the welcome back message. I sadly am not sure how long I would want to stay because the atmosphere here can get very heated up and I really don't want to bring down my energy being around too much. Let's say it depends on how chill this place is and how criticism can be addressed and talked about without yelling or posting insulting / cheeky smart comments.



Thanks!




I would like to say two things on this. One is Two Factor Authentication. The other thing is that gifted ships are not giftable anymore and CIG Customer Support deletes hacker accounts and reimburses people whose accounts got hacked. They basically work a lot to make any sort of hacking operation non viable.

Also StarCitizen trades the grey market is not selling from Hackers and is making people provide proper documents before being able to sell ships and stuff after these incidents so a lot of work is going to prevent it being a thing. But this happens with a lot of MMO's it's just part of that world too.

Have a secure password and use two factor!

--

Cool reaction and discussion video from a youtuber


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtvhtTFd7DE

Well said. This ^^ All of it.
+42 rep
 
I'm almost certainly too simplistic, maybe I don't understand the long game... Why would he keep opening more studios and burning ever-increasing salary costs if he was wanting to syphon money off?

Or is this all about plausibility and hiding the pea under the cup?

Anyway, anyone know when the BMM is being released?
 
I disagree. Roberts and others involved ARE experienced enough and know (already proven in their career) that, if interested, if having the need or good reasons for that, they are able to deliver a project effectively in a timely manner (Wing Commander 4 development was a major example of that).

What people always fail to see, apparently, is that in the Star Citizen case, there is no interest to advance to what should be called a "released" product. It goes against the financial needs that they targeted to this venture and they envision that are possible to get. They know, that are doing something unsustainable in the long term and not capable to compete/stay alive in the game industry market. So, they are focusing on keeping the dream, instead delivering more that will make people realize that what is done/delivered is not so great or groundbreaking or fun as they imagined.

So, they are, in purpose, making it take longer and longer, by using means, strategies, approaches, that a experienced PM, which is also very experienced in one or two Hollywood tricks to deceive investors or actors and keep them believing, of course, is totally capable to do.

Roberts is not this dumb that people are imagining. As well as all those other main executives profiting a lot from this venture. People, from fans to even non-believers, media, etc., are been extremely naive when they look to this whole mess (no offense intended), or some, know what is really happening here, but are too afraid to say in public because reasons.

IDK...this seems like a good deal of assumption on the motives of CIG/RSI. Is it possible this is a loop they have dug themselves into it? Perhaps....but I don't think there is evidence to prove that their goal is to just profit off of an endless pre-alpha. Rather, it is my opinion that a lack of concise and clear direction has caused the project to tumble in such a way that requires them to enter a revenue generation position as opposed to a strict game development. I think this is a similar problem that CR ran in to with developing Freelancer but didn't have the same kind of money tap he has with SC.
 

Woah, that's quite a wall! :D

Thanks for your extensive reply, that all makes sense to me. I definitely think CIG have already laid some pretty impressive groundwork in order to get everything running together at all... They absolutely do have some really smart people on board!

I'd forgotten about the cargo ATV (I did watch some of it, but I was at work so I couldn't completely pay attention, heh), thanks for reminding me. It's good they're starting to focus more on the actual mechanics and how your actions in the game are going to work. That's something that's really been missing from my point of view, hopefully as they get the underlying tech into a better place over the coming months more of that can start to show up in-game.

I do hope the thread remains chill enough for you to stay around for a while... You have a very measured view of the project and it's always worth taking the time to read what you post. :)

(Edit: Well, by the look of the way things are going, none of us will have the opportunity to post for a while soon. :D)
 
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Again with a chill out. He is not insulting you he is holding a mirror in your face for you to see your own behavior. We have several pages that show your behavior with assumption and putting words in peoples mouth, and competly ignore the stuff people try to tell you. We have the entire VR discussion for that to show you. If you dont like something you try to offroad it with your assumption in hope to derail it. If that doesnt work you try to tell people to "chill out" or again start with the agenda or hater stuff.

"Hey guys CHILL DOWN!" ( I like how he made it his)

"SO what you're saying in THIS" (completely misinterprets what is said to fill his own agenda).

A sewer rat has more mental agility (no offence BYE-BAN) --- see what I did there (made YOUR name MY own) :)

Wonder how the Strawberries are doing in their next patch iteration.
 
To be fair, the game they planned was not an MMO and was in large part intended to be played on local or private servers.


Yes you have. Just because you don't have a firm grasp of who said what due to your reliance on strawman arguments, does not mean that you haven't been incredibly insulting this whole time. So I guess we can add that one to the list of lies.

Oh, and you never really answered the question about the game. So let's try to get back on that topic, shall we?

Ok so you feel insulted because i pointed that you're taking your own biased assumptions as facts, and then you proceed to insult me in a direct way? Wow, i have no words.
 
http://lenski.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/drawing-guide.png

Please define what will be in the MVP. A list of features, content and game mechanics would be ideal.
A link to the RSI-authored list will be fine.

Did you know.
When the Architect Talks to his Customer. And asks him about his Wishlist about his Electric Installations.
He afterwards gives the Customer a List of what Installations he gets and where. And maybe even when those are going to be Build.

But guess what.
The Electrician does not give him a Rundown Report of his Single Steps to actually get these Installations Installed there.
Because lets face a Fact.
In 99 out of 100 cases even if he tried to Explain to the Customer just how hes going to get this Socket into his Wall and have it connected to the Power Supply in the Cellar. The Customer would not really understand anything about anyways.
For the Customer the Importand Information is.
Where is that Damn Socket.
Which Switch does he need to Pull Up so it works.
And where in the Damn Wall he should not Drill Holes :p

He doesnt need to know that L1 is an Solid PVC Isolated line running through an Hard Plastic Tunnel with Metal Edges in the Wall Breaks to cross Rooms. Going from S1 through S4 on the First Connector using an TNTS System for PE and N Lines to get this Socket Working while being Secured with FI Switch and Limited to 16A :)
 
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Some people seem to struggle with the term MVP so I have complied a visual aid using food as everyone understands food.

MVP means minimum viable product, it's the absolute worst job you can do without being immediately hauled over the coals by various consumer protection agencies.

This is a ham sandwich as featured in advertising :

RX-FNM_040111-Mayo-026_s4x3.jpg.rend.sni12col.landscape.jpeg

This is a legally acceptable MVP ham sandwich, this is what you can expect no matter how much you pay if the seller tells you you are getting an MVP :

2C2FC85900000578-3230809-image-a-35_1441983513225.jpg

Bon appetit citizens.
 

jcrg99

Banned
Rather, it is my opinion that a lack of concise and clear direction has caused the project to tumble in such a way

That is pretty much what RSI executives want everyone believing in the end. That is much better than been called deceivers that just profited from a project, completely based on lies and deception, that they knew was doomed to be unsustainable and unable to compete with the market in the very earlier days, and just decided to keep it alive for as long as they can and there are people buying dreams.
 
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If this project was managed by someone who had actual experience with project management, it would have been an all together experience.
I can guarantee that. You don't need to know anything about game development to manage a project, however it helps.

An experienced PM would know how to build the project up, by involving the right key people, and then take it from there. What CIG/CR did was the typical amature way of gluing stuff together in the garage, and then hope something good will come out of it. The money spend on this project on redoing and experimenting is really truly mindboggling.

Maybe someone like Alex Mayberry(oh yeah he left), or Travis Day perhaps(gone) the experienced guys cut and ran for greener pastures probably because they don't understand game development.
 
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I disagree. Roberts and others involved ARE experienced enough and know (already proven in their career) that, if interested, if having the need or good reasons for that, they are able to deliver a project effectively in a timely manner (Wing Commander 4 development was a major example of that).

What people always fail to see, apparently, is that in the Star Citizen case, there is no interest to advance to what should be called a "released" product. It goes against the financial needs that they targeted to this venture and they envision that are possible to get. They know, that are doing something unsustainable in the long term and not capable to compete/stay alive in the game industry market. So, they are focusing on keeping the dream, instead delivering more that will make people realize that what is done/delivered is not so great or groundbreaking or fun as they imagined.

So, they are, in purpose, making it take longer and longer, by using means, strategies, approaches, that a experienced PM, which is also very experienced in one or two Hollywood tricks to deceive investors or actors and keep them believing, of course, is totally capable to do.

Roberts is not this dumb that people are imagining. As well as all those other main executives profiting a lot from this venture. People, from fans to even non-believers, media, etc., are been extremely naive when they look to this whole mess (no offense intended), or some, know what is really happening here, but are too afraid to say in public because reasons.

Fair enough, however then it's a con? really doesn't make it better than incompetent.
 
Some people seem to struggle with the term MVP so I have complied a visual aid using food as everyone understands food.

MVP means minimum viable product, it's the absolute worst job you can do without being immediately hauled over the coals by various consumer protection agencies.

This is a ham sandwich as featured in advertising :


This is a legally acceptable MVP ham sandwich, this is what you can expect no matter how much you pay if the seller tells you you are getting an MVP :


Bon appetit citizens.

The way I've been taught on all the products I've released as MVP...it is the minimum which satisfies your customers most pressing requirements. It requires communication to the customer that, while this release does not give them all they wanted, they can at least have their highest priorities met and will have the rest of what was promised in subsequent releases. For example, if I'm building an ordering system, my MVP would be something that allows for the order to be entered, paid and provisioned. Next release would include a tie in to their CRM system, so that customer details can automatically be applied to the order (removing a lot of manual entry). Next release might allow for customer complaints and feedback to flow through to the ordering system to reopen problem orders without requiring a rep to go digging...and so on
 
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