The Star Citizen Thread v5

[Voivod]

Is there any point? I'm not sure he plays the game, it's abundantly obvious he doesn't read up about it.

This is just a damage control exercise and has been reading exactly like the RSI forums where everything has an explanation, everything bad is a fake and nobody else is coming close to what SC has already achieved. It's got as much point as trying to convince a guard dog that it's owner's business practises are under investigation so you need to come inside and expecting it to actually understand what you're asking.

Repped for that brilliant analogy.

 

[ianw]

The only thing that letter was missing was an appeal for somebody to please think of the children.

Assuming it's real, it's a big deal. It's an official response from CIG / RSI that appears to document the fact that the vast majority of the funds "pledged" so far have been allocated to development work, and there is no contingency fund. Any and all refunds will have a real impact on the development budget for the game, which again speaks to there not actually being a budget as such and that they're going to keep going until the game is made or the backers stop buying ships, whichever happens first. I find this to be an incredibly irresponsible approach to software development, and particularly toward the "pledges" provided at-risk by the backers.

A responsible company would have *at the very least* set a budget for the game and managed their funds in such a way as to insulate their backers from developmental hiccups. There's a very good reason why Frontier class preorders and lifetime passes as deferred income (i.e. income that they cannot book yet), because they may very well have to pay some or all of it back. These are the actions of a *responsible* company, but unfortunately for us CIG don't exist to succeed as a business; they exist only so that Chris Roberts can create the game / movie that he's always wanted to but has been hamstrung by the lack of investment. If the project fails it'll be a hit to his pride, but (as far as he's concerned) nothing else will be lost. 300 people will be out of work, but hey...

Assuming it is real I'm not sure it isn't just a typically clumsily poorly worded communication. It would have made more sense to go with -

we plan our budgets for manpower and ongoing development based on the ongoing incoming funding and refunds clearly have an impact on this making it much more difficult

That would have allowed them to make the same appeal without making it look like they have no money left.

Unless they really have no money left - but somehow I just can't see such an admission intentionally being made just before the biggest fund raising opportunity of their year in a few weeks time..

Ouch it was an iron bar.........sorry.

I think that's what I was subconsciously reaching for!

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"...And clip straight through it?..."

This too!

 

[hairychris]

I dont Apologize for Mistakes of Others.
The thing is I would actually Offer to Admit that I am wrong about them being Trustworthy if they Fail to Deliver Alpha 3.0 within 2016.

Fair enough, sounds good to me.

The only thing is is to decide on the feature list... Definitely a variety of content-rich NPC missions, what else? Fixing the physics model?

But I would only do that in exchange for you Admitting your Wrong about ED being Trustworthy if they Fail to Deliver.
Just that Unfortunately ED is not making any Promises they could Break to begin with.
Coming Soon is unfortunately not an Promise and cannot be Broken.

What FD do is irrelevant, so no.

So what can you offer in exchange on this Bet ?

If CIG deliver then I'll hold my hands up and say that I was wrong to doubt them with this delivery.

They still have a long way to go, mind, and I would still think that their business practices are sketchy.

 

[Tuub t Tute]

Someone mentioned the "day to day" professions.

CiG have shown off concept art for a dedicated mining ship I think? So not like "the other game" where you can custom fit any old wreck to go out mining in; this is a bona fide specialist ship, with its own extraction tools and removable ore hoppers and so on.

Also that then can dock with a large hull variant of a refinery plant, offload and go back out to the gold fields?

Seem like a lot of "possible future implementation of exciting gameplay"... will the refinery need fighter escorts, will pirates be able to board, or hack the control consoles and eject cargo cannisters of refined ore? If they do, have they got a ship that can collect them and fly back to grimhex or wherever?

Wonder if any of that will be in the 3.0 reveal?

 

[ianw]

The barman asks "Good to see you kind folks, it's been quiet here since the notorious b.a.d. guys moved in - can I get you a drink?"

The first commando falls through the floor, the commander T-poses and the shill accidentally hits USE while focused on the commander. The 997 other commandos in the bar die laughing

And another - my punchline creation abilities are sorely lacking right now it seems..

 

[Komemiute]

Mine was better, and as a point of pride was removed faster.

Can't give more rep to ... blahblahblah...
Kudos.

 

[hairychris]

Assuming it is real I'm not sure it isn't just a typically clumsily poorly worded communication. It would have made more sense to go with -

we plan our budgets for manpower and ongoing development based on the ongoing incoming funding and refunds clearly have an impact on this making it much more difficult

That would have allowed them to make the same appeal without making it look like they have no money left.

Unless they really have no money left - but somehow I just can't see such an admission intentionally being made just before the biggest fund raising opportunity of their year in a few weeks time..




I think that's what I was subconsciously reaching for!

This absolutely follows what CR says during this interview from 9:21 onwards regarding ship sales: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvule1cD_zk

It was this interview that finally made my mind up that CIG are completely screwed.

 

[Komemiute]

@ Kome & Stig:
Personally I found your cakes hilarious when you consider the context.

But this is supposed to be a family friendly forum. Plus bad taste. *shrug*

Taste? I totally wanted a taste. And no knife. I'd have started mine exactly where you can imagine I would!

 

[Sunleader]

Funny given that most people in many polls over on the RSI forums over the years have indicated they want to be miners or space truckers or explorers I'd think that a fair chunk of the backer base wants to know what the actual day to day gameplay is going to be like. What is the grind going to be like? What's the supply chain going to really be like and just how much influence will that 10% of the universes "player population" actually have? That is at the very core of what Star Citizen gameplay is supposed to be centered around.

It being one of the main Parts doesnt really change that its not an very big topic.
Take FDevs BGS for example.
Insanely Importand. But barely mentioned in detail.
Heck up to this day the info we got on how it actually works is from Player Testing.

Such stuff aint exactly making for exciting news.
Even its importand.

The only thing that letter was missing was an appeal for somebody to please think of the children.

Assuming it's real, it's a big deal. It's an official response from CIG / RSI that appears to document the fact that the vast majority of the funds "pledged" so far have been allocated to development work, and there is no contingency fund. Any and all refunds will have a real impact on the development budget for the game, which again speaks to there not actually being a budget as such and that they're going to keep going until the game is made or the backers stop buying ships, whichever happens first. I find this to be an incredibly irresponsible approach to software development, and particularly toward the "pledges" provided at-risk by the backers.

A responsible company would have *at the very least* set a budget for the game and managed their funds in such a way as to insulate their backers from developmental hiccups. There's a very good reason why Frontier class preorders and lifetime passes as deferred income (i.e. income that they cannot book yet), because they may very well have to pay some or all of it back. These are the actions of a *responsible* company, but unfortunately for us CIG don't exist to succeed as a business; they exist only so that Chris Roberts can create the game / movie that he's always wanted to but has been hamstrung by the lack of investment. If the project fails it'll be a hit to his pride, but (as far as he's concerned) nothing else will be lost. 300 people will be out of work, but hey...

*If its indeed real*
As I said before it does simply not look the Part.
Its written very unprofessionell as well. Not like its written by somone doing this for work.


Claims that SC would be out of money and would be bankrupt within Months have been done for years now. And they are still there.
And sorry but this letter looks so incredible fake.....

 

[ianw]

This absolutely follows what CR says during this interview from 9:21 onwards regarding ship sales: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvule1cD_zk

It was this interview that finally made my mind up that CIG are completely screwed.

I do think they are in serious poo poo.

But I just can't imagine we are really on the verge of what would be the biggest most cataclysmic and fidelititious collapse in crowd funding ever.

I'm not arguing that they aren't beyond salvage - I just can't quite believe it.

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*If its indeed real*
As I said before it does simply not look the Part.
Its written very unprofessionell as well. Not like its written by somone doing this for work.

You could make that argument about CR's escapist letter and the legal guy's threat to the Escapist letter...

But they turned out to be real too.

 

[hairychris]

I do think they are in serious poo poo.

But I just can't imagine we are really on the verge of what would be the biggest most cataclysmic and fidelititious collapse in crowd funding ever.

I'm not arguing that they aren't beyond salvage - I just can't quite believe it.

Right now it's self-sustaining. If people are throwing money to CIG then CIG will keep going. The instant that this stops happening, assuming what CR and the letter implies is true, they will collapse very quickly.

Ironically if CIG produce a "gold" release and halt ship sales it seems that this may well sink them.

EDIT: If this is the case then you're getting close to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_bubble or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme

EDIT 2: Wow, I love wiki as this describes the grey market to a tee: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_fool_theory

 

[Esvandiary]

It being one of the main Parts doesnt really change that its not an very big topic.
Take FDevs BGS for example.
Insanely Importand. But barely mentioned in detail.
Heck up to this day the info we got on how it actually works is from Player Testing.

Such stuff aint exactly making for exciting news.
Even its importand.

90-minute Frontier livestream and Q&A dedicated to the BGS

I'm still very unconvinced that people (especially traders) don't want to know how the economy works, or all the other professions.
If 3.0 is indeed more "profession-focused" that would be a very good thing... It's pretty overdue IMO. Up until now it's been lots of promises, zero confirmed details.

 

[Maruun]

Entire Frontier livestream and Q&A dedicated to the BGS

I'm still very unconvinced that people (especially traders) don't want to know how the economy works, or all the other professions.
If 3.0 is indeed more "profession-focused" that would be a very good thing... It's pretty overdue IMO. Up until now it's been lots of promises, zero confirmed details.

I agree to this if they finally implement a basic form of a gaming loop in 3.0 it would be the first step after 4 years to go forward.

 

[xyphic]

*If its indeed real*
As I said before it does simply not look the Part.
Its written very unprofessionell as well. Not like its written by somone doing this for work.

As ianw points out above, this isn't the first time we've seen this type of communication from CIG.

Claims that SC would be out of money and would be bankrupt within Months have been done for years now. And they are still there.

I don't believe that CIG have run out of money. That would be incredibly difficult given the level of funding and the amount of time they've been going (well, unless the actor and mocap fees amount to tens of millions of dollars). What I *do* believe is that their executive team have the same mindset as some of the backers: that the game is so ambitious that it has no fixed budget and any and all money pledged goes to an increase of scope. What this means for *me*, the backer who's in at the lower levels, is that I don't have any sort of idea when or if my pledge will result in a released game.

What I've been advocating all along is not that CIG stop taking pledges, but that they define the scope of what they want the game to be, and set a budget and timeline for that development. It doesn't matter if they slip (because that's software development for you) but if they slip because they're spending all their resource on stuff that's peripheral to the core game, then I think they should be accountable for that. Long story short, if CIG had heads down making the game as originally scoped, they wouldn't be far off release by now, with cash to spare for developing the game further post-release. That's my beef with the development of the game.

 

[frostypaw]

It being one of the main Parts doesnt really change that its not an very big topic.
Take FDevs BGS for example.
Insanely Importand. But barely mentioned in detail.
Heck up to this day the info we got on how it actually works is from Player Testing.

Simply not true - there has been plenty of information given about the BGS.

You've just not looked/paid attention because you're not interested so you're happy to state is as fact here because you're on the attack. It's just fiction - if you want people to have a proper discussion with you then discuss real things, there's a fan-fiction forum over there

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(well, unless the actor and mocap fees amount to tens of millions of dollars)

Considering the number of actors and that they're effectively asking them to sign up for all three parts of Sq42 with it's giant branching(? maybe) script and their likenesses being captured not just voice etc.....

If I was an actor's agent I would be asking for the full three-game fee upfront - just to make sure we are available of course, not so that we still get a great cut even if it tanks no sir - and then tens of millions really isn't out of the question.

 

[Toumal]

I dont think this is Authentic.

Just like the fact that Star Marine was "delayed indefinitely" and then claimed to be "in the game already" - only to now be "possibly implemented soon" after all.

Also, anyone claiming that the words in this letter don't mean that they spent the money already:


If I fund something, and then I ask for a refund, there's two choices:

1) The company has not yet spent my money, so they just take that money out of their bank account and give it back to me. Problem solved.

2) The company has already spent my money, in which case they have to either go into debt or ask their other customers for money to be able to pay back my money.

3) There is no point 3. If you think there is, you need to think this through or take an economics class.

We are at Point 2 with CIG, according to their own words. Which is a problem because they previously vehemently denied having spent all the money, claiming that there's way, way, WAY more than enough money in the bank to finish the game.


Wishful thinking doesn't overrule facts and logic. Anyone still thinking that everything is fine simply does not understand how this "money" thing works.

 

[hairychris]

Considering the number of actors and that they're effectively asking them to sign up for all three parts of Sq42 with it's giant branching(? maybe) script and their likenesses being captured not just voice etc.....

If I was an actor's agent I would be asking for the full three-game fee upfront - just to make sure we are available of course, not so that we still get a great cut even if it tanks no sir - and then tens of millions really isn't out of the question.

They're certainly millions of USD in with this... It depends on how much mocap is done in-house (they built their own studio, didn't they??) and how much they did at Imaginarium & etc for Christ-knows how much a day. You've also got to pay for actors and their expenses, props, yadda yadda.

It all gets very expensive very quickly.

 

[Toumal]

*If its indeed real*
As I said before it does simply not look the Part.
Its written very unprofessionell as well. Not like its written by somone doing this for work.

You mean like the letter written by Ortwin Freyermuth that has had one of my colleagues (one of our company lawyer) laugh out loud?

Claims that SC would be out of money and would be bankrupt within Months have been done for years now. And they are still there.
And sorry but this letter looks so incredible fake.....

Well, they still get money pouring in. But hey, how about some of that amazing transparency that they claim for themselves? You know, the bit they removed from the TOS?

Just tell us how much $ has been spent so far. One number. Can't be difficult. It's backer money after all, not theirs.

 

[Sunleader]

As ianw points out above, this isn't the first time we've seen this type of communication from CIG.


I don't believe that CIG have run out of money. That would be incredibly difficult given the level of funding and the amount of time they've been going (well, unless the actor and mocap fees amount to tens of millions of dollars). What I *do* believe is that their executive team have the same mindset as some of the backers: that the game is so ambitious that it has no fixed budget and any and all money pledged goes to an increase of scope. What this means for *me*, the backer who's in at the lower levels, is that I don't have any sort of idea when or if my pledge will result in a released game.

What I've been advocating all along is not that CIG stop taking pledges, but that they define the scope of what they want the game to be, and set a budget and timeline for that development. It doesn't matter if they slip (because that's software development for you) but if they slip because they're spending all their resource on stuff that's peripheral to the core game, then I think they should be accountable for that. Long story short, if CIG had heads down making the game as originally scoped, they wouldn't be far off release by now, with cash to spare for developing the game further post-release. That's my beef with the development of the game.

I dont know about other Communications.
But I can tell you this.
Last time I talked to Support in regard of an Launcher Error.
Their Layout of the Answer as well as the Decorations were very Different from this Letter.
Their writing was much more professional. And the Header looked different as well.
So no matter how I look at it. But this Letter simply looks faked.

I would ask for an Refund just to check the response.
But the honest thing is. That I am expecting to simply get the Refund which I dont want. Thus wasting my advantages i got.
Because I just dont see this being anywhere close to being the authentic response.





As for Developing.
Well. Things rarely go as planned.
And while I agree that their Approach aint optimal.
I developed a hatred for the nowdays overly common. *we dont promise anything so we cant break any promises* approach.
Or the somewhat lighter. *we only promise stuff and announce it after its 80% finished anyways.* approach.




I agree they should make a list of what features they will prioritize. And in which order stuff is done.
And i sure as heck would wish for a timetable.
But their change of doctrine just happened. So i dont think they even decided what they are going to deliver as MVP.
And the scale is insane. So an accurate ETA is really unfeasible.

If you asked DB for an ETA on Seasons 3-4-5 you would not get an answer either after all.

 

[Voivod]

I don't think CIG are in trouble financially.
They have so many whales giving them sweet moneys.
All they need to do is produce a few demos and some new concept ship sales and people start crying in happiness and throwing money at the screen

I'm genuinely happy I'm not part of that group of people though... kind of like I'm happy I don't have leprosy.