So you want to know about the Formidine Rift? (Part 3)

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Yes, I'm very familiar with them.

"Money implies poverty"

I suspected you would be.
I'm pretty sure that it was playing Elite as a kid that made me enjoy IMB's books so much.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

sorry, but that was one part of the statement made. Not the statement made.
So, I agree with you in part - but whether that economy is due to the vision, due to design constraints, poor design, not enough time... we just don't know. Also, what do you believe a post scarcity economy to look like? Would food be free to all for instance, rather than just very cheap?

In a post scarcity economy we traders would be completely out of a job
To me, 'post scarcity' means that wherever you are, whatever materials you need are available immediately and for free.
If there are things you need to work for, or pay for, then you're not post scarcity.

IMHO, YMMV.

 

[Siranui]

Is it? Food is incredibly cheap (as is fuel) in comparison to other materials. Independent space travel seems fairly accessible to most. Colonisation of the planets literally thousands and thousands of planets, to huge distances. Mass consumer production of technology and even food. I'm not saying its perfect, but on my reading, in terms of how people live in relation to each other, its all pretty much the same as it is now. Life is certainly cheap in ED, and there are some very dodgy 'civilisations' out there, but again - you could argue that is just today on a grander scale. Of course, you may feel we live in a dystopian present - I'm as cynical as the next man, but not everything has to be a conspiracy...

Glass half full, half empty. Shades of grey, all that. Not complaining. Just find it interesting.

Space travel is accessible *to us*. It may not be run of the mill for the dirt-siders. Although we have colonised thousands of worlds, many of these shining bastions of civilisation are a mesh of old girders, hanging in the void, populated by a few thousand people at most, living without gravity. System populations are generally very low. Humanity is thinly spread.

Yet despite this sparsity of population, unlimited fusion power, free robotic labour and a massive volume of material available for exploitation, humanity is still subject to 'money' and tyranny. There is enough to go around and yet humanity still has 'haves' and 'have nots'. People still do menial jobs.

There is no need on paper for humanity to be in such a sorry state: Power structures and governance exists - at heart - because resources are limited and some people want more than their share. Yet with those resource restrictions partially lifted, humanity still resides under the yoke; either through tyranny, fear, or choice - by way of misdirected social instinct.

 

[Matzov]

I suspected you would be.
I'm pretty sure that it was playing Elite as a kid that made me enjoy IMB's books so much.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -



In a post scarcity economy we traders would be completely out of a job
To me, 'post scarcity' means that wherever you are, whatever materials you need are available immediately and for free.
If there are things you need to work for, or pay for, then you're not post scarcity.

IMHO, YMMV.

A fair enough vision for post scarcity. However, it is not the sole vision surely, and it also presumes that the continuation of some 'scarcity' means a dystopia - from a purely economical perspective. I might argue for instance, that in a purely post scarcity setting, where everything and all was free (assuming someone actually was motivated to make stuff) then there would be no government either.

But - interesting as this is - my original point really meant to illustrate that so far every 'mystery' has had a strong hint that its a conspiracy of some sort. Just to change it up, it might be nice if (and this was kinda mentioned up thread, and I replied with the divergent view - see I am quite the contrarian!) if in one or two of these scenarios, the guy just died. Or the ship just failed and blew up. And it wasn't always some twisted narrative.

Although - of course - its just allegations, so maybe it really will be that the guy just died, and Raan is just a crook deflecting blame.

 

[Siranui]

Also, what do you believe a post scarcity economy to look like? Would food be free to all for instance, rather than just very cheap?

If true post-scarcity, money is theoretically rather a thing of the past, since your energy, labour and materials [means of production] are all free and unlimited. The concept is inherently at odds with the concept of Elite, since there would be no need for us to drive stuff around. Elite is definitely not post-scarcity, either economically or in terms of society [because rich people - those with more 'stuff' than others - are still in charge].

 

[Matzov]

Space ...

I think the existence of GalCop, Sirius, the Federation etc... from the start, suggests the neo-capitalists 'won'.

 

[SpocksOddSocks]

sorry, but that was one part of the statement made. Not the statement made.
So, I agree with you in part - but whether that economy is due to the vision, due to design constraints, poor design, not enough time... we just don't know. Also, what do you believe a post scarcity economy to look like? Would food be free to all for instance, rather than just very cheap?

In lore, I don't know, but in game design, I think Elite was always first a foremost meant to be a parody of the standard neo-liberal economics of the time.

Edit: but yes, I was rather focused on that one part. But I kind of thought that was the specific part you were replying to. If only we spoke Marain

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

A fair enough vision for post scarcity. However, it is not the sole vision surely, and it also presumes that the continuation of some 'scarcity' means a dystopia - from a purely economical perspective. I might argue for instance, that in a purely post scarcity setting, where everything and all was free (assuming someone actually was motivated to make stuff) then there would be no government either.

But - interesting as this is - my original point really meant to illustrate that so far every 'mystery' has had a strong hint that its a conspiracy of some sort. Just to change it up, it might be nice if (and this was kinda mentioned up thread, and I replied with the divergent view - see I am quite the contrarian!) if in one or two of these scenarios, the guy just died. Or the ship just failed and blew up. And it wasn't always some twisted narrative.

Although - of course - its just allegations, so maybe it really will be that the guy just died, and Raan is just a crook deflecting blame.

I agree (I think I'm understanding you correctly) that it would be pleasant if sometimes things that appeared on Galnet would just be news, rather than a 'clue' - it seems that everything that appears there is a waving tentacle of some kind of galaxy-sized conspiracy-squid.
It's exhausting enough trying to follow the Rift storyline, without barnacles and military drives and whatever-the-hell is up with Halsey. Personally I think she was stuck in space for a month with nothing to do but read Galnet and it drove her round the bend.

 

[Siranui]

But - interesting as this is - my original point really meant to illustrate that so far every 'mystery' has had a strong hint that its a conspiracy of some sort. Just to change it up, it might be nice if (and this was kinda mentioned up thread, and I replied with the divergent view - see I am quite the contrarian!) if in one or two of these scenarios, the guy just died. Or the ship just failed and blew up. And it wasn't always some twisted narrative.

Nice in theory but such stories and pieces of news lead nowhere and are merely background fluff. They exist in real life, but not in narrative because they're a proverbial waste of space and kind of pointless (unless establishing norms, or scene setting). For example, in a police show, we don't see the lead characters knock on the fifteen apartment doors before reaching the relevant one: They do the irrelevant stuff of-camera.

Plus, you need a lot of signal in order to water down the signal-to-noise ratio of plot. We only get one real plot related Galnet article every week or so. For there to be 'dead end' stories which are pure fluff or red herrings, there would need to be a much higher volume of fictional news being created. We would need a dozen or so articles a day; maybe more. FD would need a full-time writer dedicated simply to creating major headline but entirely irrelevant news articles.
Don't get me wrong, it'd be great (and I'd love the job), but it would also be a massive investment of time which would not create any actual gameplay. Indeed; it might be counter productive, in that players may get frustrated in chasing non-stories.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Indeed; it might be counter productive, in that players may get frustrated in chasing non-stories.

*cough* EAFOTS *cough*

 

[Siranui]

*cough* EAFOTS *cough*

EAFOTS has been an A class, level 5 engineered, rock solid piece of firm data, in comparison to some of the other 'clues'.

 

[Siranui]

A fair enough vision for post scarcity. However, it is not the sole vision surely, and it also presumes that the continuation of some 'scarcity' means a dystopia

It's more a context thing: Given what we know of the setting, the fact that humanity is still rolling around in the state portrayed while possessing free energy, massive resources and robotic labour is kind of depressing when you think about it. Given what it has, it should have developed more socially. The future is darker than it need be, given the technological enablers. That is why I consider it semi-dystopian.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

EAFOTS has been an A class, level 5 engineered, rock solid piece of firm data, in comparison to some of the other 'clues'.

And yet we still managed to find the square root of FA

 

[Zeeman]

I'm not an expert, so take this with a grain until an expert confirms (or more likely tells me this is nonsense) but I believe - strictly speaking - Pleiades is an open cluster, not a nebula. This may or may not make a difference if you want to pursue the whole 7 nebulae theory.

Whilst I do believe you're right, I think that in game, it's a nebula. I am going to have a bit of a toy around with the theory, my plan is to head out as far as I can to the rim, then turn around, slid emy "cargo slider" to max, and come back slowly with smaller jumps, effectively checking my six all the way back to the bubble.

Also, is that quote about "seeing the octagonal ships, the grave stones tot he horizon" actually confirmed as a clue?

I have a theory I'll share shortly, but I need to confirm my memories of other parts of the galaxy that I have flown through, to check it against what I am seeing now.

ie - my theory about "depends who goes looking", I think, is more to do with noticing something out of place, and for this, exploration of similar regions in other parts of the galaxy is a must. Having done BP twice, and having down the "East" and "West" routes back, I'm currently checking back over my previous routes (yeay for EDSM and EDDiscovery!!!!) and making sure my memories are actually correct...

Without wanting to be too mysterious, I don't remember seeing such a thick layer of brown dwarf type stars in any other part of the galaxy in a similar location relative to Sag A*/spiral arm location as where I am now. If the "grave stones to the horizon" is an clue, I could say that said dwarf stars (confirmed by Drew to be "dark systems", from memory), then, well... Looks like a pretty good analogy to me...

Could be reading it all wrong, of course... Anyway, As for the nebula, we've had the EAFOTS/H&S clue, which to me is two of the seven veils, then the Salome kidnapping where she mentions Pleiades blah blah blah all connected, so that is Veil three. I may have missed other clues hinting at one or mor eof the remaining for (or they are yet to be given), but that is my theory on that.

So, time to start filtering and zooming around the galaxy map...

EAFOTS has been an A class, level 5 engineered, rock solid piece of firm data, in comparison to some of the other 'clues'.

Level 5 with a poor roll, right, so really it's just a high L3?

Z...

 

[Cpt.Bilsn]

Whilst I do believe you're right, I think that in game, it's a nebula. I am going to have a bit of a toy around with the theory, my plan is to head out as far as I can to the rim, then turn around, slid emy "cargo slider" to max, and come back slowly with smaller jumps, effectively checking my six all the way back to the bubble.

Also, is that quote about "seeing the octagonal ships, the grave stones tot he horizon" actually confirmed as a clue?

I have a theory I'll share shortly, but I need to confirm my memories of other parts of the galaxy that I have flown through, to check it against what I am seeing now.

ie - my theory about "depends who goes looking", I think, is more to do with noticing something out of place, and for this, exploration of similar regions in other parts of the galaxy is a must. Having done BP twice, and having down the "East" and "West" routes back, I'm currently checking back over my previous routes (yeay for EDSM and EDDiscovery!!!!) and making sure my memories are actually correct...

Without wanting to be too mysterious, I don't remember seeing such a thick layer of brown dwarf type stars in any other part of the galaxy in a similar location relative to Sag A*/spiral arm location as where I am now. If the "grave stones to the horizon" is an clue, I could say that said dwarf stars (confirmed by Drew to be "dark systems", from memory), then, well... Looks like a pretty good analogy to me...

Could be reading it all wrong, of course... Anyway, As for the nebula, we've had the EAFOTS/H&S clue, which to me is two of the seven veils, then the Salome kidnapping where she mentions Pleiades blah blah blah all connected, so that is Veil three. I may have missed other clues hinting at one or mor eof the remaining for (or they are yet to be given), but that is my theory on that.

So, time to start filtering and zooming around the galaxy map...





Level 5 with a poor roll, right, so really it's just a high L3?

Z...

Sorry to not snip the quote, but I am functioning purely on mobile and it's so much hassle you wouldn't believe.

No the quote about octagonal ships and graveyards doesn't come from the Old lady, its musing of old admiral about (unrelated) things he saw in life designed as flavour text for kickstarter (iirc, later appearing in the Dark wheel), so it's very probably not a clue.

It turns up every few tenths of pages regardles .

 

[lorrad]

Space travel is accessible *to us*. It may not be run of the mill for the dirt-siders. Although we have colonised thousands of worlds, many of these shining bastions of civilisation are a mesh of old girders, hanging in the void, populated by a few thousand people at most, living without gravity. System populations are generally very low. Humanity is thinly spread.

Yet despite this sparsity of population, unlimited fusion power, free robotic labour and a massive volume of material available for exploitation, humanity is still subject to 'money' and tyranny. There is enough to go around and yet humanity still has 'haves' and 'have nots'. People still do menial jobs.

There is no need on paper for humanity to be in such a sorry state: Power structures and governance exists - at heart - because resources are limited and some people want more than their share. Yet with those resource restrictions partially lifted, humanity still resides under the yoke; either through tyranny, fear, or choice - by way of misdirected social instinct.

It's an outcome of the social patterns in troupes of bipedal apes.
No philosophy can trump biology.

"How like an angel this quintessence of dust"

Good luck with all that.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

No philosophy can trump biology.

This is becoming less and less true as more and more advances are made in the fields of (epi)genetics and neuroscience.

 

[SpocksOddSocks]

It's an outcome of the social patterns in troupes of bipedal apes.
No philosophy can trump biology.

"How like an angel this quintessence of dust"

Good luck with all that.

This is becoming less and less true as more and more advances are made in the fields of (epi)genetics and neuroscience.

Indeed. Also Lorrad, you might want to look up "Forest Troop", a group of baboons that bucked the trend based on unusual circumstances, and that's without the civilizing, reflective documentation that we have.

Edit: but this seems to be getting way off topic onto some kind of socio-political argument that I'm pretty certain this isn't the place for, so sorry for my part in that.

 

[lorrad]

Indeed. Also Lorrad, you might want to look up "Forest Troop", a group of baboons that bucked the trend based on unusual circumstances, and that's without the civilizing, reflective documentation that we have.

Edit: but this seems to be getting way off topic onto some kind of socio-political argument that I'm pretty certain this isn't the place for, so sorry for my part in that.

What do you get when a bonobo bangs a chimp?
Tadaaaa!

Things get slow yet punchy during beta; Tionisla's beautiful isn't it?

This will be of interest to rifters and very on topic.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/291643-The-Visited-Stars-cache

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Indeed. Also Lorrad, you might want to look up "Forest Troop", a group of baboons that bucked the trend based on unusual circumstances, and that's without the civilizing, reflective documentation that we have.

Edit: but this seems to be getting way off topic onto some kind of socio-political argument that I'm pretty certain this isn't the place for, so sorry for my part in that.

In any other thread, a mod would be along to remind us to stay on topic - I think they've been told to steer clear of this one.
(Hello mods! )


In a bid to revert things to topic, I'm going to say the word "Phoenix" again, in the hope that somebody else (other than @Matzov) is wondering about it.

 

[Han_Zen]

In any other thread, a mod would be along to remind us to stay on topic - I think they've been told to steer clear of this one.
(Hello mods! )


In a bid to revert things to topic, I'm going to say the word "Phoenix" again, in the hope that somebody else (other than @Matzov) is wondering about it.

I still wonder.