Worst. Thing. Ever! (2.2 beta 7 system map

[Solko]

Why not Zoidberg, why not make both parties happy?

1: Invent a second type of Detailed Surface Scanner.

2: Make the current one not uncover the planets until you point at them, and unlock the 3D map only if getting closer. (Bonus-points for giving the DSS a greater range, like 10x as much, maybe 100x for moons?)
Scan will show full details about everything of the planet that an explorer could every dream of.

3: The "New" scanner uncovers details and the 3D map right after you HONK'ed,
but you won't get high quality scans from it (like minerals).

4: Make them mutually exclusive (you can only take on, not both).*

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So basically the first one is for explorers who want to actually want to KNOW everything about the system they are in (and make more money in the process),
the second one is for the "I want to SEE everything of the system I am in"-fraction, but this is offsets with making less money.

If you want BOTH at the same time... see and know everything instantly.... then I am really genuinely curious about what the term "Explorer" means to you, as it seems I have a slightly different opinion here. o_0


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* In case we get actual mysteries to explore on the planets: just go for one type of scanner, but allow only those who get close to the planet/moon to scan for this.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

What I'm getting from some is: because I like a certain way of exploring which at the moment is standard, I now have to fit a bigger module/make less money.

 

[Lordfrith]

FDEV are unfortunately however moving the touted QoL 3D surface map behind the DSS time-wall though - still annoyed about that one.

not a beta player but keeping a curious eye on feedback.

so to clarify discovery scanner works more or less the same as now (aside from black planet bug) and the problem here is the detailed surface maps require a detailed surface scanner?

that seems entirely consistant and logical to me, have i missed something?

my touted steaming hot cup of tea is also hidden behind some pointless kettle mechanic time wall, damn you Tdev!

 

[MattG]

not a beta player but keeping a curious eye on feedback.

so to clarify discovery scanner works more or less the same as now (aside from black planet bug) and the problem here is the detailed surface maps require a detailed surface scanner?

that seems entirely consistant and logical to me, have i missed something?

my touted steaming hot cup of tea is also hidden behind some pointless kettle mechanic time wall, damn you Tdev!

I don't even think you need a DSS, just a basic scan will do (I think...), and yes it's entirely logical. But up until this point in the beta, you could see the surface maps from just honking which I (and others) found useful. All of a sudden, it was worth visiting that iceball 20K LS away because you could see it had an interesting gorge or whatever. Now, with the "consistent and logical" behaviour... it's simply not worth travelling that 20K LS on the off chance there might be an interesting gorge or whatever there. For me, and the way I like to explore, the planetary map has gone from a useful tool to useless in a single change.

If you enjoy spending your time scanning an entire system, you're probably OK with this change. If you're a cherry picker, or scant on time (or both), this is a disappointing change IMO. YMMV.

 

[marx]

not a beta player but keeping a curious eye on feedback.

so to clarify discovery scanner works more or less the same as now (aside from black planet bug) and the problem here is the detailed surface maps require a detailed surface scanner?

that seems entirely consistant and logical to me, have i missed something?

my touted steaming hot cup of tea is also hidden behind some pointless kettle mechanic time wall, damn you Tdev!

Not entirely: they required a detailed scan. Just having a DSS fitted and firing your D-scanner won't give you the planetary view anymore: it was advertised as such, and has been as such in the earlier betas.

Personally, I liked it better when I could look at the general surface on the map. That way, I could look at something and find possibly interesting features even on all those iceballs. That way, you'd still have to fly to them to check out whether you were right. But if this makes it in-game, you'll have to fly to them each anyway. So basically, it'll make the new feature almost useless, as it'll save you maybe a minute at best, as opposed to at least half an hour if it worked in the way it originally worked. It would have been a nice tool for finding interesting stuff, but this way it won't help much.

 

[Kuroshio]

What I'm getting from some is: because I like a certain way of exploring which at the moment is standard, I now have to fit a bigger module/make less money.

Sounds like it, doesn't it? But it isn't meant personally. It is actually the hope to use this moment and think about adding another element of progression to exploration, with the "better ships equal better equipment" from the other parts of the game (larger cargo, bigger refineries, guns, guns, guns) taking a foothold here. You can fit an ADS and a DSS in a Sidey, as soon as you can afford a Type-6, you can fit everything you'd ever want or need for exploration. With Engineers and Jumponium, range isn't the issue it once was.

Now just imagine throwing the IDS out of the store (does anyone ever buy these things?) and replacing it with a Standard Discovery Scanner, size 2. Infinite Range, but doesn't reveal the planets. Keep the ADS as it is (with planets revealed), but needing a size 3.

Yes, you'd need a bigger slot, but since the "grey blobbers" are actually volunteering to give up something we all have - a lot of information right after the honk - it would be nothing more than simple "bigger scanner equals better scan" logic. Like, I don't know, a docking computer. Collector limpets. All these things cost money and space because they make the game more comfortable, even though you can dock and scoop yourself.

Would that really be so bad? (Honest question, because I believe exploration game play and progression would benefit from something like that. And hey, I'd pay for your scanner, no worries.)

 

[varonica]

See, the difference is, I think the current Buggy Black Balls Beta actually encourages actively playing the explorer role by letting us make the filtering decision. It encourages active thinking on our part, not passive entertainment (for any given value of entertainment). But it's okay if others don't, and there is a lot of voting going on in the beta forums.

Personally I find the black balls immersion breaking. I look at Jupiter or Saturn through even a low powered telescope and I see rings and bands, I don't just see a black ball and have to get within about 70ls to actually see some details. Sorry, a completely immersion breaking black wand of pointlessness. Someone earlier said the "magic wand of ADS". If my ADS doesn't include a spectrometer and various other optical and electromagnetic devices for finding out as much as I can about a planet before visiting it then I have to ask, what use is it? Hey I have an idea immersion wise, why don't we model relativity physics properly and make a trip to Jupiter take at least four hours? That would make exploring much more meaningful. What don't like modelling real world physics when it's inconvenient for you but happy to take us back to the 15th to before telescopes were invented?

Arguing about what sort of devices we would have in the 3200's to explore with is pretty much the epitome of pointlessness. You implement what is most fun for most people, not what the hard core immersionists want, that way lies madness and bankruptcy!

 

[[VR] optimal_909]

Sounds like it, doesn't it? But it isn't meant personally. It is actually the hope to use this moment and think about adding another element of progression to exploration, with the "better ships equal better equipment" from the other parts of the game (larger cargo, bigger refineries, guns, guns, guns) taking a foothold here. You can fit an ADS and a DSS in a Sidey, as soon as you can afford a Type-6, you can fit everything you'd ever want or need for exploration. With Engineers and Jumponium, range isn't the issue it once was.

Now just imagine throwing the IDS out of the store (does anyone ever buy these things?) and replacing it with a Standard Discovery Scanner, size 2. Infinite Range, but doesn't reveal the planets. Keep the ADS as it is (with planets revealed), but needing a size 3.

Yes, you'd need a bigger slot, but since the "grey blobbers" are actually volunteering to give up something we all have - total information right after the honk - it would be nothing more than simple "bigger scanner equals better scan" logic. Like, I don't know, a docking computer. Collector limpets. All these things cost money and space because they make the game more comfortable, even though you can dock and scoop yourself.

Would that really be so bad? (Honest question, because I believe exploration game play and progression would benefit from something like that. And hey, I'd pay for your scanner, no worries.)

Size and power requirements.
I'm happy to haul a A5 power plant that reduces jump range but has enough juice to charge an AADS that reveals planet surfaces.

I guess this should be somehow submitted to FD by someone they recognize, like Obsidian Ant or Dr. Kaii. Though I guess it is too late to fit this into 2.2.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Grey Blobbers giving up something is something they are requesting to make the game more fun. That's not a sacrifice and besides, it's irrelevant to me what other people give up.

I'm not willing to sacrifice a higher slot or take a lesser payout because of a grey blobby request.

 

[varonica]

- total information right after the honk -

There's no total information after the honk, it gives you planet size and type, ice rocky etc, and some information about the rings, you don't get information about the volcanic activity on the planet, possible life, mineral composition. That's just throwing out false information to try and argue your position. You just get stuff that we can even work out today with decent instruments either on the earths surface or in orbit, granted you get a full front and back side view of the planet or moon, but all you really have to do to get that is to wait for a full rotation and you would have that information anyway, it's not a big deal and it's hardly total information.

 

[Kuroshio]

Grey Blobbers giving up something is something they are requesting to make the game more fun. That's not a sacrifice and besides, it's irrelevant to me what other people give up.

I'm not willing to sacrifice a higher slot or take a lesser payout because of a grey blobby request.

Okay. I was just asking. And trying to turn this away from Grey Blobbers v. Colored Ballers to "could exploration have an element of technological progression based on that debate, and would it benefit from it?". I don't want to force a module down Dilbert's throat here. (Though I do wonder what's in that size 3 slot that couldn't be fit in the size 2 that would be free. )

There's no total information after the honk, it gives you planet size and type, ice rocky etc, and some information about the rings, you don't get information about the volcanic activity on the planet, possible life, mineral composition. That's just throwing out false information to try and argue your position. You just get stuff that we can even work out today with decent instruments either on the earths surface or in orbit, granted you get a full front and back side view of the planet or moon, but all you really have to do to get that is to wait for a full rotation and you would have that information anyway, it's not a big deal and it's hardly total information.

Sorry, edited.

 

[[VR] optimal_909]

Grey Blobbers giving up something is something they are requesting to make the game more fun. That's not a sacrifice and besides, it's irrelevant to me what other people give up.

I'm not willing to sacrifice a higher slot or take a lesser payout because of a grey blobby request.

Let them use smaller slot or save one, or whatever without touching the requirements for the current setup. Then we should get the possibility to upgrade for a full surface mapping with a module that is bigger or has higher power requirements.

 

[Kuroshio]

Let them use smaller slot or save one, or whatever without touching the requirements for the current setup. Then we should get the possibility to upgrade for a full surface mapping with a module that is bigger or has higher power requirements.

Or we could ask for that. (Though the scanners already need only size 1 slots. Making the ADS size 2 would only hurt people in exotic exploration ships - Vulture, Sidey ... Oh. Sorry. Forgot about Frawd.)

 

[Lordfrith]

Not entirely: they required a detailed scan. Just having a DSS fitted and firing your D-scanner won't give you the planetary view anymore: it was advertised as such, and has been as such in the earlier betas.

Personally, I liked it better when I could look at the general surface on the map. That way, I could look at something and find possibly interesting features even on all those iceballs. That way, you'd still have to fly to them to check out whether you were right. But if this makes it in-game, you'll have to fly to them each anyway. So basically, it'll make the new feature almost useless, as it'll save you maybe a minute at best, as opposed to at least half an hour if it worked in the way it originally worked. It would have been a nice tool for finding interesting stuff, but this way it won't help much.

yeah ok, i get how that works now. It will still save some time as going to planet vicinity and scanning is still much quicker than the old method of flying round it and looking for canyons/mountains by eye. Also Gas bodies with multiple moons will work pretty nice as you can usually scan most of them without having to move about too much. like you I was looking forward to this feature for finding good places on planets to explore (i like a good SRV hike up a mountain) but i was worried that most exploration would get done on system map screen rather than in system if you see what i mean.

i can see how this would be annoying if a feature is introduced and then scaled back once you've gotten used to it as they say: 'everybody hates a good compromise'!

 

[[VR] optimal_909]

Or we could ask for that. (Though the scanners already need only size 1 slots. Making the ADS size 2 would only hurt people in exotic exploration ships - Vulture, Sidey ... Oh. Sorry. Forgot about Frawd.)

This is why I wrote to save one slot, or any meaningful downgrade option.
Though to be frank, I doubt that most of blobbers (sorry) will downgrade.

 

[Kuroshio]

This is why I wrote to save one slot, or any meaningful downgrade option.
Though to be frank, I doubt that most of blobbers (sorry) will downgrade.

If it's okay with Frank...

Well, that would modify the proposal to "scratch the IDS, replace it with SDS (infinite range but blobs)". I could live with that for ending the battle of the blobs. (Not for having an equipment progression through exploration, but that's kind of a different topic anyway. )

 

[RadActiveLobster]

If they insist on this DSS paywall mechanic, they need to combine the DSS into the DS slot or make the DSS part of the standard ship sensor suite so that builds that don't have a DSS aren't left out to dry.

 

[moonsword]

Just another bungled introduction of a new feature due to FD's classic poor decision/communication process.

Make the troops think one thing, then reverse course, add confusion and poor communication and stir the pot needlessly.

Why even announce a feature before you can clearly communicate how it will work when released.

It really doesn't matter to me how this works. I'm just, once again, fascinated as to why FD insists on stimulating the toxic arguments here that are unnecessary and could have been so easily avoided.

Pretty astounding, when you realize it has been the pattern now for over two years.

I guess it would be very helpful that if new features are implemented and should be tested we may get a short intoduction when the beta starts about how each feature should work.
Then we may be able to test:
a) if the requirements are met or not
b) and if the features are thrilling or not and to give some remarks how these may get improved

 

[Mengy]

If they insist on this DSS paywall mechanic, they need to combine the DSS into the DS slot or make the DSS part of the standard ship sensor suite so that builds that don't have a DSS aren't left out to dry.

You don’t need the DSS to get the new surface maps, just a standard scanner, but you do need to fly to the planet and surface scan it normally. The DSS will just get you more credits, and planet detail info, and a list of materials you can find on said planet.

 

[iain666]

Or we could ask for that. (Though the scanners already need only size 1 slots. Making the ADS size 2 would only hurt people in exotic exploration ships - Vulture, Sidey ... Oh. Sorry. Forgot about Frawd.)

Keep the ADS as a size 1 internal with all the details but make the grey blob scanner mounted on a utility slot (because the internal slot is for all the computers doing post processing on the raw scanner data to colour in the blobs).

You can take the utility mounted one if (a) you really want to explore like that or (b) you're in a small ship and want to sacrifice super scanner so you don't have to pick two from shield/AFMU/hangar...