Worst. Thing. Ever! (2.2 beta 7 system map

[EdzUp]

This would be a perfect time to bring back Elite 2's system map graphics for unscanned planets. After all at present we can see earth like world in other systems by pure science alone why not when we are in the system?

 

[Miklos Atreides]

Seems to be a bug for the candypickers and a feature for discoverers.
I do get it because if its not considered a bug its changing the game for many exploreres that only scan worthy items. The icy worlds they leave behind because they are not worth the time to scan.
Discoverers will say. Yeah! this feature makes sense because you are to get there to find out if its worth a scan. I do understand both worlds but tent a little more to the discoverers side.
It has always been that exploration is not paying well. You do it because you are curious and not running for the money and you love that feeling when a ball becomes your best friend....

Regards,
Miklos

 

[amigacooke]

Is exploration really about heading into the known unknown?

 

[Miklos Atreides]

If you are heading into the known known, where is the discovery and exploration? Then exploration will be even more 'boring' than it is to most today.

Regards,
Miklos

 

[MattG]

I personally had in mind using the new surface map feature to tell whether those far out ice balls 100,000ls+ are actually worth going to. Many of those planets are never scanned due to their distance, when they could very well harbour some wonderful features that will never be seen, equally they could mostly be featureless and flat. The new surface map as it was advertised at Gamescom, would have encouraged people to not skip those worlds, or at least show people whether the time investment is worth it.

Now we're back at square one with having to get close enough to practically see the planets anyway to know whether they're worth it.... So that we can see a preview in the system map of a planet we're only likely to visit once before carrying on to the next system, and then never visit ever again. In that sense, giving us a preview of the planet's surface after we've been to it is pointless.

Exactly this. I'd been using the planetary map to decide whether ice balls looked interesting enough for a visit during beta. To take this away means I will revert back to previous behaviour (ignore all ice balls) and in doing so make the planetary map largely useless as a new feature (to me). Franky, I've seen enough ice balls to last me a lifetime and 90% of them are dull - I'm not wasting my time trying to track down the 10%.

Disappointing, but sadly something I've come to expect these days. At least we've got a few more engineers to grind reputation for with undoubtedly annoying "meeting" requirements and some wonderful RNG mechanics to drag that grind out a bit more, yay.

 

[varonica]

Exactly this. I'd been using the planetary map to decide whether ice balls looked interesting enough for a visit during beta.

Same here. I can at least see the basic features of a planet using a telescope from earth, it seems strange that we couldn't do that in the year 3200 from a spaceship. Look I can see the argument, immersion etc, but there's immersion and there's features that make the game not fun, there are some "real life physics" that would simply make the game boring and unenjoyable for most people, including them because "immersion" would be silly because in the end you need people to play the game, you have to make compromises. Not everyone will be happy with them, there is always going to be a hardcore "immersion is god" group, unfortunately they will never get a game that will make them completely happy, and FDEV will have to be satisfied with making 99% of people happy.

 

[[VR] optimal_909]

Loving the blacked out version. Sorry, but that's just my own, very personal opinion: It would mean that Exploration isn't about being there first anymore, but about deciding what might be worth exploring.

I feel dirty and guilty for loving it, but I do. It would force us to ask questions about habitable zones, the science of planetary systems, and it would force us to develop instincts for what might be interesting. I'd be really, really, happy about this.

Check out planets in the habitable zones won't mean those will be interesting.

This means you'd fly 30-50 times into habitable zones to find one ELW and a couple of WWs/terraformables. Fortunately this scenario is not on the table.

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If you are heading into the known known, where is the discovery and exploration? Then exploration will be even more 'boring' than it is to most today.

Regards,
Miklos

I find it amusing, that people who like the black-ball scenario are never in the exploration forum... If you think exploration is boring, than why does this matter to you?

 

[Ziljan]

I find it amusing, that people who like the black-ball scenario are never in the exploration forum... If you think exploration is boring, than why does this matter to you?

I left the exploration forums a while back because I couldn't take the boring ADS magic wand mechanic anymore. However, in the beta I have been having a blast exploring for 4 hours straight, puzzling out the systems, and savoring the mystery of it all, even though it doesn't count for anything except my own enjoyment. I am trying to appreciate it while it lasts. Hopefully they won't change it back until the beta is over so I can enjoy it for a week or so that is left until release.

 

[Arubeto]

I find it amusing, that people who like the black-ball scenario are never in the exploration forum... If you think exploration is boring, than why does this matter to you?

I am often in the exploration forum, consider myself an explorer in ED (it's my highest pilot federation ranks, at least) and participated in the Distant Worlds expedition and still prefer the beta 7 version with the planets being represented by anonymous black spheres until they are surface scanned.

 

[Kuroshio]

Check out planets in the habitable zones won't mean those will be interesting.

This means you'd fly 30-50 times into habitable zones to find one ELW and a couple of WWs/terraformables. Fortunately this scenario is not on the table.

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I find it amusing, that people who like the black-ball scenario are never in the exploration forum... If you think exploration is boring, than why does this matter to you?

I find it quite amusing that I am suddenly someone who's never in the exploration forum just because I have a different opinion.

But you're damn right I would, and one Earth-like in 50 found in the black ball scenario would be a lot more satisfying and interesting than the one Earth-like in 5 kylies I find by honking.

I like the Black Ball System Map. I understand that others don't. I proposed, up in the Beta forums, a solution based on an additional scanner (larger, more expensive) for the Billiard Ball System Map. Ziljan proposed turning it into an optional feature. We're actively looking for ways to make this work for both sides. Let's not turn this into a "No True Explorer" argument, okay?

 

[[VR] optimal_909]

I find it quite amusing that I am suddenly someone who's never in the exploration forum just because I have a different opinion.

But you're damn right I would, and one Earth-like in 50 found in the black ball scenario would be a lot more satisfying and interesting than the one Earth-like in 5 kylies I find by honking.

I like the Black Ball System Map. I understand that others don't. I proposed, up in the Beta forums, a solution based on an additional scanner (larger, more expensive) for the Billiard Ball System Map. Ziljan proposed turning it into an optional feature. We're actively looking for ways to make this work for both sides. Let's not turn this into a "No True Explorer" argument, okay?

1. I didn't address that message to you, but now we're at it, I dare to risk the statement, that most in the exploration forum would welcome the detailed surface map
2. It isn't about who is true explorer or not, rather about those who actively play the explorer-role

In the current state of Elite, 90% of the planets are boring with nothing to see or do on them (HMCs or ice worlds with atmosphere, standard blue giants, etc.), and the ADS is there to filter them out so that you can check out interesting stuff in the limited time you are spending in the virtual world.

If Elite were a game in which planets would have truly unique stuff (such as global geographical features, active weather systems, etc.) and most of them were landable, I could accept the notion to have this element of surprise, but quite frankly I'm struggling to understand why would anyone go for the black-ball scenario.

Again, if anything this should be put for a proper voting, not to be decided upon a thread, and not based on some individuals proposition.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

So many threads about this subject, so little time

As a Space Tourist, I do enjoy entering a system, honking and browsing the system map to see if there's anything interesting going on. I'd rather not fly to each object to scan them before I can determine whether this system deserves the time I just spent on it.

The 2 module solution seems to be the way to go in this.

 

[Ziljan]

2. It isn't about who is true explorer or not, rather about those who actively play the explorer-role

I think you may be glossing over "why" people stopped playing exploration, and are only counting the votes of the few people left who suffer through the 2.1 version of exploration rather than switching playstyles and waiting for a better tomorrow.

But to be clear, if the exploration was mysterious, like the current beta 7 mechanic, then I would probably do nothing else except exploration. Most people like a good mystery.

The mystery wouldn't have to be in form of the current beta 7 mechanic. It could be that the physical features of a planet actually mattered for exploration purposes, and hence the zoomable surface detail requiring a close up scan could actually reveal important and actionable information. That would be fine too! Being able to zoom in and see details on a planet is pretty amazing, but let's be honest, it doesn't result in new gameplay. Knowing the surface detail information is functionally useless out side of setting up canyon races or SRV rallys. Those things are important too, but scouting places to race isn't exactly my idea of science or exploration.

In the meantime though, we could have a 2-state solution. Like Ziggy says! 2 new ADS scanners. One for the grey blobbers and one for the peeping toms. Everyone is happy!

 

[[VR] optimal_909]

I think you may be glossing over "why" people stopped playing exploration, and are only counting the votes of the few people left who suffer through the 2.1 version of exploration rather than switching playstyles and waiting for a better tomorrow.

But to be clear, if the exploration was mysterious, like the current beta 7 mechanic, then I would probably do nothing else except exploration. Most people like a good mystery.

The mystery wouldn't have to be in form of the current beta 7 mechanic. It could be that the physical features of a planet actually mattered for exploration purposes, and hence the zoomable surface detail requiring a close up scan could actually reveal important and actionable information. That would be fine too! Being able to zoom in and see details on a planet is pretty amazing, but let's be honest, it doesn't result in new gameplay. Knowing the surface detail information is functionally useless out side of setting up canyon races or SRV rallys. Those things are important too, but scouting places to race isn't exactly my idea of science or exploration.

What mystery? That 1 out of 50 planets in the habitable zone is an ELW or not? That is exactly the issue, most planets are boring, have no unique features and doing something on them is limited. I accept this as a technological barrier that can not be overcome, it is foolish to think that most aspects that can make a real life exoplanet interesting can be simulated in Elite - therefore we need an effective tool to filter them out and truly check out the interesting places, should it be an ice ball with deep trenches, or an ELW or whetever.

And I think some of the best known CMDRs of exploration are still at it, please don't try to suggest that the la-classe explorers quit it because exploration is sh*t.

 

[Kuroshio]

1. I didn't address that message to you, but now we're at it, I dare to risk the statement, that most in the exploration forum would welcome the detailed surface map
2. It isn't about who is true explorer or not, rather about those who actively play the explorer-role

In the current state of Elite, 90% of the planets are boring with nothing to see or do on them (HMCs or ice worlds with atmosphere, standard blue giants, etc.), and the ADS is there to filter them out so that you can check out interesting stuff in the limited time you are spending in the virtual world.

If Elite were a game in which planets would have truly unique stuff (such as global geographical features, active weather systems, etc.) and most of them were landable, I could accept the notion to have this element of surprise, but quite frankly I'm struggling to understand why would anyone go for the black-ball scenario.

Again, if anything this should be put for a proper voting, not to be decided upon a thread, and not based on some individuals proposition.

See, the difference is, I think the current Buggy Black Balls Beta actually encourages actively playing the explorer role by letting us make the filtering decision. It encourages active thinking on our part, not passive entertainment (for any given value of entertainment). But it's okay if others don't, and there is a lot of voting going on in the beta forums.

Give self-declared space tourists like Ziggy a size-3 Total Discovery Scanner (also adding a sense of progression to exploration), give grey blobbers (thanks for that) like me one that doesn't tell me everything, and everything would be fine.

And it would make exploration in Elite prepared for the time when most planets become landable and contain the unique features you described and that the game is missing.

 

[Ziljan]

The mystery is in taking in the available information, guessing correctly, and impact this has on your subsequent choice of "door #2" for scanning. Any planet that is in the habitable zone will at the very least be a high value terraformable. It may also be a WW or an ELW, but that is not what is interesting about. The better you get at identifying the habital zones of certain star types, the more rewarding this experience can become.

I agree that the planets aren't interactive enough, but to say there is a "technological barrier" to deep exploration seems a bit premature. FTL is a game with significantly less overhead or options, and yet manages to squeeze oodles of exploration gameplay from a game where you never leave your 2D ship. Elite could have similarly compelling exploration gameplay that was based on similarly simple mechanics. It doesn't have to be holodeck version of star trek to be exploration gameplay. As long as there is a choice to be made that has a significant outcome, then there are rich possibilities for gameplay.

 

[[VR] optimal_909]

See, the difference is, I think the current Buggy Black Balls Beta actually encourages actively playing the explorer role by letting us make the filtering decision. It encourages active thinking on our part, not passive entertainment (for any given value of entertainment). But it's okay if others don't, and there is a lot of voting going on in the beta forums.

Give self-declared space tourists like Ziggy a size-3 Total Discovery Scanner (also adding a sense of progression to exploration), give grey blobbers (thanks for that) like me one that doesn't tell me everything, and everything would be fine.

And it would make exploration in Elite prepared for the time when most planets become landable and contain the unique features you described and that the game is missing.

You're quite optimistic about what can be and will be achieved to make planets more unique.
Just check out the images made about Pluto, that thing looks way more varied from orbit that any planet in Elite. Has global features such as mountain ranges, those "ice bergs" floating on an ice maze, etc..
I think we are quite far off to have that level of simulation, not to mention deploy the same level of variety on all kinds of planets... I'd be already happy having water worlds without life, I think that is the single biggest scientific mistake (without function) in the game.

And I'd be also okay to have more varied exploration equipment. You can have the combined basic one with single slot, and those like me could take the very detailed scanner that could be made very power hungry so that we need to fit large and heavy power plants that eat into jump range.

 

[MattG]

In the meantime though, we could have a 2-state solution. Like Ziggy says! 2 new ADS scanners. One for the grey blobbers and one for the peeping toms. Everyone is happy!

I could buy into this. I would even accept it if the unlocking of planetary maps to the default ADS was hidden behind the engineer grind.

 

[[VR] optimal_909]

The mystery is in taking in the available information, guessing correctly, and impact this has on your subsequent choice of "door #2" for scanning. Any planet that is in the habitable zone will at the very least be a high value terraformable. It may also be a WW or an ELW, but that is not what is interesting about. The better you get at identifying the habital zones of certain star types, the more rewarding this experience can become.

I agree that the planets aren't interactive enough, but to say there is a "technological barrier" to deep exploration seems a bit premature. FTL is a game with significantly less overhead or options, and yet manages to squeeze oodles of exploration gameplay from a game where you never leave your 2D ship. Elite could have similarly compelling exploration gameplay that was based on similarly simple mechanics. It doesn't have to be holodeck version of star trek to be exploration gameplay. As long as there is a choice to be made that has a significant outcome, then there are rich possibilities for gameplay.

You already have the same mechanic at play when gueassing whether a planet is terraformable or not, I've found lots of planets this way around Jaques.

I don't know FTL, but adding believable and unique features to planets (that can make an average planet interesting) through procedural generation is I think a very hard nut to crack, and that's an euphemistic statement.

 

[Miklos Atreides]

Check out planets in the habitable zones won't mean those will be interesting.

This means you'd fly 30-50 times into habitable zones to find one ELW and a couple of WWs/terraformables. Fortunately this scenario is not on the table.

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I find it amusing, that people who like the black-ball scenario are never in the exploration forum... If you think exploration is boring, than why does this matter to you?

Because for me exploration is far less 'boring' than to many others. I do alreaddy have my mark on a coupble of systems, even if it was not on the far trips today. But I extend my
raids out to the unknown one step after the other and I don't believe that Candypicking and J-H-J is a method how exploration is to be done properly. It is valid to do so but somehow
it tastes bitter to me.

Fleshing out exploration even more and adjust the scanners I am all for. I don't believe this is the end of possibilities and a Developer will care on it one day.

Regards,
Miklos