Exploration Scans

[Arburich]

Idea: Use the Basic / Intermediate / Advanced Discovery Scanners to their full advantage.

Using a Basic Discovery scanner will show the entire system map, only leaving all the planets blacked out without a deeper scan, but still retaining it's "Basic" Discovery Option.

Using an Intermediate Discovery Scanner will show the map, plus the current 2.1 standard of the map at detail. That way, you can see the planets without the surface maps.

Using an Advanced Discovery Scanner will allow you to view the entire System + All the advanced surface scans (Detailed scans can still be made for profit & more information still).

A good way to balance this is to make the Advanced Discovery Scanner a little more expensive. Maybe 5-10mill instead of just 1mill. And make the Intermediate Scanner a more affordable price for everyone. While also upping the price, the ADS should also be fit to a larger compartment. Maybe a size 3 slot or so.

Just an idea, let me know what you people think.

 

[Huita]

Mhm great, even more ways to die and lose all the months of scanning work.

Wow, you sound like a giant      . I know just the right game for you, the one you can't even crash your ship in.

Maybe if you want a bigger challenge how about you leave shield and AFM behind and if that's not enough try going out without a fuelscoop? :3
Though if your goal is just to reduce the amount of players pulled out into the unknown then you'll likely succeed with this idea.

Obviously, you have no idea about anything ever if you think that having no fuel scoop adds some challenge the same way as having no AFM does.
But just for the record - of course i explored without shields or AFM, what am i, a cripple? You only need shields post 2.0 if you plan to land and don't want random scratches, and you only need AFM if you like to fly drunk.

Actually, how about you prototype that idea? Pick some surface materials that will be for food and water so you have every once in a while something you need to hunt so you don't "die" and if you run out of that you'll see whenever or not you feel like blowing your ship up because you ran out of LS.

If you're so good at imagining playing a game without a game, why do you even bother with E? Just lay on the couch and play it in your head. Less chances to blow up with "hard work" (mm, honking! mm, jumping!) of exploration that way, too.

 

[Phoenix_Dfire]

Hello Commander Phoenix_Dfire!

Yes. I wish I had written it like this. I guess I haven't had enough coffee this morning either.

I've been doing my own little bit of testing on this and I think that's about right. The issue is that after a week of exploring (I got to 1200 ly above sol at the top of our arm of the galaxy), I'd got bored exploring every single planet and started only looking for blue planets or planets that appeared to have an atmosphere (white whispy bits on the system map). When I got to these planets interest up close, you were sometimes disappointed by the discovery that it was not an earth-like which made the elation when you did discover an earth like or water world that much better. I do feel that the exploration would loose something if people could zoom straight down to the planetary map and recognize an earth like straight away. That said, I don't know what you could do about the discovery scanner because most commanders will only go exploring using the most advanced version. Only the most masochistic of us, and we know there are a few (Hutton truckers!), would fly to Sag - A or Beagle Point with a basic or intermediate discovery scanner.

I mean, we're not loosing anything from moving from 2.1 to 2.2 by having the planetary grid on the Class 1 Scan but you would loose something if we just had the black planets on the 'Honk'.

I would agree with some of the other posters that it's the surface scanner that might need some love. Maybe showing where some of the major mineral deposits are on the planetary map, significant POI (permanent crashed ships, barnacles once they've been discovered) or hidden bases, like the legendary pirate asteroid bases that Mr Braben has mentioned before.

At the risk of being chucked out of the Hutton truckers for even suggesting this; I do feel being able to select any of the stars in a multi star system as the exit point of a jump, would be a helpful to making exploring more accessible (as well as other trade routes). I know that's a big ask and will now hide.

 

[jgm]

At the moment the problem with the three classes of scanner is that as long as you have the credits there is no reason at all to use the basic or intermediate scanner. In addition, the existing differentiators between the three classes (i.e. range) means that there is no incentive at all to use the lower-class scanners.

Now, bearing in mind that I'm not a long-term explorer but from what I've done I can think of a few things that might work. Not sure that everyone will like them, mind.

First off, all scanners should have infinite range. The truncated range of the lower-end scanners make them totally uninteresting to any serious explorer (who wants to discover half a system?)

Given that, the scanners need to differentiate in some other fashion. Assuming that we stay within the range of the existing game mechanics (so no discovering comets or whatever) we need something that makes taking the higher-class scanners a choice rather than an immediate upgrade. My initial thoughts are:

• Basic: carries out the honk as per the ADS today. Honk time is 5 seconds. No ability to surface scan
• Intermediate: incorporates the detailed surface scanner. Honk time is 10 seconds. Surface scan distance is as per today.
• Advanced: incorporates the detailed surface scanner. Honk time is 15 seconds. Surface scan distance is 5x as per today.

By doing this each scanner has benefits and drawbacks. Want to do drive-by honking? Basic is your friend. Generally honk but explore the ones that look earth-like? Go intermediate. Are you a completionist and want to scan every last asteroid? Advanced will save you a lot of time.

This makes your selection of scanner a real choice rather than the current "advanced unless you're a pauper" selection methodology.

 

[jc4hokies]

During the kickstarter there was a desire for the ability to slingshot around planets, but this not implemented due to lack of time compression. I think there's a way to implement a slingshot mechanic using the supercruise flight model, which would enhance completionist exploring.

1. Surface scans instantly resolve within [1 Ls] (adjust to taste). This is so you can scan a planet during a high speed flyby.

2. When passing bodies at high speed, ships retain the difference between their SC speed and the normal max SC speed as permanent additional slingshot speed. Slingshot speed is deducted when determining gravitational acceleration or deceleration, so a ship would immediately accelerate upon passing a body and accelerate beyond a typical max speed.

3. Reducing throttle below 100% would remove slingshot speed, and a ship would decelerate to normal levels.

The amount of slingshot speed is based on how (skillfully) close you are able to perform a flyby without crashing into a body. Completionist explorers would be able to perform flybys of each body at ever increasing speeds greatly reducing the time to fully scan a system. Long SC trips could be made faster by building up substantial speed before setting course to distant (300,000+ Ls) stars.

 

[ChaosCloud]

(perhaps disposable drills which can be placed on the surface which will give a better surface composition and perhaps some micro-materials as well )

Something like this, though not for planets, was talked about a long while ago, I think somewhen in Public Beta?
Where you'd have some asteroid mining rig sitting somewhere grinding away and you'd come over every now and then to pick up the goods, assuming no pirates (player or not) found it and plundered it, or something like that.

At first the idea with the drills seemed a bit pointless in deepspace to me but thinking a bit more about it it actually sounds very nice:
Lets say you found a planet that has Polonium (just finding one is sometimes hard enough, let aside one above 1%...) so you'd plunk down a drill somewhere and then go exploring the surface for a while, or if you're about to head to bed just leave it running over night.
And later you can then gather the detailed surface samples and with a little luck a few units of polonium (and whatever else the planet has).

Maybe this would be done with a special SRV? Or it'd be a cargo you'd take from the ship with the SRV and then deploy and later pick up again and bring back to the ship? No 1-shot nonsense like limpets please. Out in the deep is the last thing you can deal with running out of "ammo".

(while also not taking away from those who don't have it)

Yeah good luck with that one : /

 

[zarthrag]

Data values in the map for detail-scan candidates should be revealed.

Seems sensible to try to make the various scanners have less overlap, more utility, and a bit more balance. If detail scanning is going to be harder/more tedious, the payout needs to be MUCH better. (stop being so stingy!) It also needs to reveal (much) more in the way of POI, resources/mats.

Also, ...people use basic/immed scanners? Will the adv scanner also not reveal surfaces, now?

It also needs to be easier to purchase/collect maps for known space. (Or at least along a plotted route!)

 

[who?]

Hello Commander MyHammer!

So i guess one of the things we're asking for in this thread is: what kind of more fundametnal changes to exploration and sanning would folk be interested in seeing?

​Echo location
Posted this elsewhere, I think it's a nice suggestion.

I'd love it if after the HOOOOONK, there would be silence for a moment, then you'd start to hear echoes coming in for the bodies in the system. A different echo for each type of planet, and the delay indicates roughly the distance from your location. Just by listening to this, you'd know if there's something of interest in the system, without bringing up the System Map.

For the hearing-challenged users, you'd still have the visual back-up.

IMO, the problem is the ADS takes all challenge out of exploring, and makes it more mundane. Remove the ADS and exploration becomes too much of a challenge with no real means of keeping track of where you've searched.

Perhaps:
- the ADS shows all stars, planets and most small planetoids.
- there can be other, smaller (or darker/cooler!) items to find which even the ADS will miss. Comets. Perhaps small, cold planetoids. Asteroids etc.
- these items are found through the Honk echo above.

To find these, you'd need to either get lucky, or use echo location method above to slowly 'triangulate' the sound source / body.

Missions
You could also add exploration missions for scouting systems for hidden 'dark' exploration/population hazards. Other exploration missions would be great too - let's say "Sirius Corps request an ammonia world with 0.1G to 0.25G for optimised manufacturing", and offer a huge payout to any Commander who submits such a scan, and that would be a long-term goal.

Outfitting
As it stands, there's no choice to exploration outfitting. ADS, DDS, fuel-scoop, long jump range, done. Maybe you could choose different scanners for different body types. "Gas Giant specialist scanner" instead of the DDS. Now, you'll get a big boost for any gas giants you scan, but less for all other bodies. It makes the exploration a bit more goal-oriented rather than honk 'n' move on (disregarding the actual contents of the System Map unless there are ELWs)

 

[Andovar]

OK, it's official, I've lost my tiny mind. Sorry.

No time for that now, you need to get 2.2 out the door.
Go get yourself a hot cup of coffee... in an Alliance mug. It just tastes better.

 

[MartinG]

I think the current implementation – the one described in the OP – is a good compromise for now.

As for my suggestions for improvements, I’ll try to be brief:

• I agree with Obsidian Ant’s proposal posted by Ziljan, on the condition that less powerful scanners would weigh less and maybe more powerful scanners would draw more power.
• I would also like Combined Discovery Scanner(s) – that is, discovery and surface scanners combined into one larger module (but weighing a bit less than the two separate scanners together). My reasoning for the necessity of such a module goes as follows:
  
  A serious long-distance Horizons explorer would like to fit the following list of optional modules:
  • Discovery scanner and surface scanner, of course.
  • Fuel scoop, naturally.
  • Planetary vehicle bay.
  • Shield generator, to avoid ship damage when landing and to provide at least some protection when returning to the bubble.
  • 2 AFMUs, because an AFMU can repair another AFMU, but cannot repair itself.
  • Finally, a cargo rack, in case they find something mysterious out there…
  The ship that is most presented as optimized for exploration is, of course, the Asp Explorer. But it cannot fit all of the above – it has 1 slot too few. If the two scanners were combined into one class 2 module, there would be no problem fitting all of the above.
  Of course, making one of the scanners a utility would also solve the problem.
  
  
• I think payouts for level 2/3 scans should be based not just on the scanned body parameters, but also on the distance from the arrival point, so there is more incentive to scan distant bodies.
• I also would like an extra bonus for turning in a level 2/3 scan of all bodies in a system. (Maybe excluding asteroid belt clusters, unless they start to pay for scanning those too.)

 

[K-Rose]

​Echo location

Outfitting
As it stands, there's no choice to exploration outfitting. ADS, DDS, fuel-scoop, long jump range, done. Maybe you could choose different scanners for different body types. "Gas Giant specialist scanner" instead of the DDS. Now, you'll get a big boost for any gas giants you scan, but less for all other bodies. It makes the exploration a bit more goal-oriented rather than honk 'n' move on (disregarding the actual contents of the System Map unless there are ELWs)

I disagree with introducing new scanners.

The detailed surface scanner should just help with POI's, like this original concept:

 

[Andargor]

Please allow scans of planets you have already scanned to ensure that the event is always logged to the commander's log.

Alternatively, fire the scan event in the log when you consult an already scanned planet in the System Map.

 

[Red Anders]

I'm not sure there's a right answer to this.

All my nerdy hard SF explorer logic screams that the planet surfaces should only really be visible with a closer scan, but as far as making the canyon-hunting etc fun it seems a bit harsh.

There is an answer and you just posted it.

This is a game. In a game when there's a conflict between realism and gameplay, gameplay wins.

 

[K-Rose]

There is an answer and you just posted it.

This is a game. In a game when there's a conflict between realism and gameplay, gameplay wins.

Indeed, and with how hard Geisers and other landmarks are to find, I believe the DSS should assist with this, it'll greatly help with gameplay over the realism of them being hard to find.

Even if every planet doesn't have features, if 1 in 10 gets scanned and comes up with some persistent POI's, I think it'd be really great.

They had the concept here (I'm not giving up with this gif!!)

 

[MartinG]

Please allow scans of planets you have already scanned to ensure that the event is always logged to the commander's log.

Alternatively, fire the scan event in the log when you consult an already scanned planet in the System Map.

Alternatively, implement something like the Cartographer’s API proposal I wrote yesterday, pretty please

 

[jessecrosswhite]

I would suggest keeping the system as it is but add more functionality to the detailed discovery sensor. The detailed sensor could reveal the general location of POIs. Not the specific location, though, to keep it interesting. Maybe the scan could give us an area in which we can search for things. The POIs could be anything and could be build upon in the future. For starters, the detailed scan could reveal:

• Regions of tectonic activity
• Geysers, volcanos
• Settlements
• Current POIs
• Anomalies
• Material deposits (this would improve the mining and material collection gameplay, e.g. for engineers)
• Everytime you guys add something to planet surfaces, you could include it as a signal for the detailed scan.

Hope this helps! Best of luck guys and keep up the good work

This sounds good. make the surface scanner an actual useful piece of equipment.

 

[Edamski]

How so? Without a surface scanner you need to fly close to the planet to get the detailed scan. With the surface scanner you get the detailed scan at the range of the discovery scanner.

There are some great ideas in this thread, many of which would take months to develop. I feel my solution could be done quite quickly.

But we're just talking about the visual planetary map. There's no good reason I can think of why that should not be made available with a general discovery scan. It's not as if you get any extra credits for it, and it would help people looking for, say, a nice canyon to race in, or a massively high mountain, find these things without the tedium of having to fly around scanning every planet in the system or being forced to equip a detailed surface scanner.

 

[subhouse07]

Wow I'm glad to have read this post. The way people were talking I was under the impression a disco scan would just reveal a bunch of blank circles for all the planets (been out of town so haven't haf a chance to play the beta recently). I'm all for the current system in the beta. As long as we get graphical representations of planets I think it's totally reasonable that a detailed surface map would require the use of a detailed surface scanner.

 

[Kuroshio]

Since there are a variety of opinions and 2 virtually unused scanners (BDS and IDS), I would highly suggest having multiple options and replace the 2 unused scanners:

All of these would have infinite range:

1) basic scanner: shows only black spheres and stars
2) intermediate scanner: shows full color system maps, but no zoomable planets before a direct scan
3) advanced scanner: shows full color map and zoomable planet surfaces

Oh course there should also be some incentive structure for using the basic and intermediate versions, for example: cost, weight, power usage, size, slot type used (utility vs internal).

Obsidiant Ant made a video showing how each scanner level would work starting at t=4:31

https://youtu.be/iGQafi6K7v0?t=4m31s

This. Least effort, no one loses anything or has to change playstyle, stronger foundation for the future.

 

[londonx]

How about relating access to System detail inside the bubble with the state of the system and the factions relation to you. You might expect a booming Hi Tech system which is friendly to provide easy access to planet detail. The extra effort and subsequent danger required for a series of precise manual scanning efforts to reveal details in systems in a state of anarchy, economic collapse or just unfriendly/ambivalent would fit in with the game quite nicely I think. Enhancing reasons to progress within a certain faction and feeling of the powerplay mechanic, sort of like even the inhabited bubble becoming "unknown" to you/your spacecraft depending on your chosen alliences. You could even start to think of scanned data and planet surface info from hostile or anarchy systems as smuggled artifacts with high reward where the relevant authorities after being alerted to suspicious data gathering activities start to pursue you.