Exploration Scans

[K-Rose]

I would suggest keeping the system as it is but add more functionality to the detailed discovery sensor. The detailed sensor could reveal the general location of POIs. Not the specific location, though, to keep it interesting. Maybe the scan could give us an area in which we can search for things. The POIs could be anything and could be build upon in the future. For starters, the detailed scan could reveal:

• Regions of tectonic activity
• Geysers, volcanos
• Settlements
• Current POIs
• Anomalies
• Material deposits (this would improve the mining and material collection gameplay, e.g. for engineers)
• Everytime you guys add something to planet surfaces, you could include it as a signal for the detailed scan.

Hope this helps! Best of luck guys and keep up the good work

This please Sandro, to go with my gif spamming of your concept art.

Also on materials & mining, my friend loves geology, if you can incorporate a very basic version of this for mining it'd be fantastic. Baring in mind geology has a big impact on the type of life that is on a planet, it'll be useful for determining what's around when planets with life come up. With a simpler "Elite" version of this map we can know where to mine for palladium and all sorts.

 

[ChaosCloud]

The ship that is most presented as optimized for exploration is, of course, the Asp Explorer. But it cannot fit all of the above – it has 1 slot too few. If the two scanners were combined into one class 2 module, there would be no problem fitting all of the above.
Of course, making one of the scanners a utility would also solve the problem.

My ASPX actually has all that except the 2nd AFM. Mainly because I'm less concerned about my only AFM breaking than my powerplant or hull breaking.
I'd still take the combined scanner as that'd allow me to get a landing computer, for when I ever get back XD

But seriously, we need to be able to do some maintenance of the vital components too somehow (landing and repair lasering them with the SRV?). And give us a pricey (but not overkill pricey) recipe to restock on heatsinks -_-
We can refill FRICKING MISSLES, why's a simple heatsink so hard then?
Or just a pricey recipe to create nanites that repair the vital things like hull and powerplant and cockpit in case it's broken (does salvage and reboot work for these? I think I tested that once but can't remember the outcome)

 

[NoFans]

As you like RNG can we have a feature that when you hand in exploration data there is small chance your ship will get instantly destroyed (1 in 10000 chance off a random roll?). As we have the stupidity of Open and Private this would bring the 'dangerous' element back into the game for these guys and is just as ridiculous.

 

[Hellhawk666]

Sandro - thanks for the OP and opening this to discussion. I think this is actually about two related but different issues.

The first is whether we should see attractive and accurate representations of planets in the system map. I think everyone agrees that this is a really great idea.
The second issue, when that representation is available, is really a question about whether the representation reveals all that there is to see on the planet.

This suggests that the solution (already made by several others) is to add another layer of scanning - Close Orbital Scanning - which requires a new module to be equipped.

Close Orbital Scans could reveal persistent POIs that have very high value as data. These could appear on any planet, regardless of type or aesthetic interest. If there was a possibility that any given ice planet, for example, might have a very valuable POI then exploration is given greater interest and presenting the surface globe in the system map up-front becomes pretty much a non-issue, because the satisfaction created by going to look at a planet is no longer dependent on how interesting it looks.

 

[iveinsomnia]

Since, in 2016 we are already able to watch and mostly guess planets in other systems, I assume it's right to conclude in 3302, that we could easily make a simple observation of the system where you are at.
Discovery Scanner: give basics info and visual, but without the surface map (position, distance, atmosphere).
Detailed Surface Scanner: Give full data, including surface map.

 

[Armour]

Suggestions:

Basic scan - shows generic graphics for bodies, no surface detail. Must be in normal space and stationary. First ping details mass, temperature. Second ping determines orbital paths, velocity. Low Universal Cartographics payout.
Advanced scan - shows real graphics for bodies, no surface detail. Provides elemental composition of body including ratios of each element. Higher UC payout, including potential cuts of resource rights for undiscovered planets.
Surface scan - shows body surface, requires a complete orbit. Distance from planet determines resolution of planet map, with the lowest altitude of orbital cruise providing the best detail including persistent POIs. Extra UC bonuses for finding special sites (xenoarchaeological sites/illegal material production facilities/classified military sites/other).

 

[Andargor]

Alternatively, implement something like the Cartographer’s API proposal I wrote yesterday, pretty please

I would promote your idea in the commander's log thread if I were you, since the mechanism of dumping events to the log is already established and would not involve developing something new. You might get more traction that way, and it might get done sooner.

For example, ask that the orbital data dump occurs on a honk, with the scanner type determining which parts of the system is dumped.

 

[CFF]

I would like to see the basic scanner reveal planet bodies and their graphical representation on the system map. I think this is just a QoL issue for exploring and will reveal far more interesting planet finds to the community than forcing everyone to surface scan.

I think the surface scan should reveal mineral composition so you can make a decision to go there for some reason.

Overall though, it's a little concerning that this question is getting asked tbh. Scanning systems in the game right now is a very rudimentary task that doesn't have a lot of gameplay elements to it. As game designers, shouldn't you be looking further down the road to a more fully fleshed out scanning system that includes possibly new and interesting/exciting gameplay? I would think that that roadmap should dictate different scanner uses/functionality, not what the community currently thinks about a very narrow gameplay issue (graphic system map representation).

For instance, what if the community decides they don't want to currently see graphical plants on basic scan, but when atmosphere planets are introduced visual cues to gas mining are really important in deciding on what gas giants to go to. Just an example (and probably not a good one). But I think you get the idea.

 

[DoctorDanny]

This may not be the most popular opinion on the forums, but for me the best part of exploration was BEFORE i actually got the advanced discovery scanner.
Finding planets by looking for moving for moving dots on the background was extremely rewarding and a bit skill based.
When I got the advanced scanner and could just honk the system a lot of the fun went away (since there's nothing else to find besides planets that is).

I'd be in favour of reducing the range of the scanners by very large factor so that finding planets and stars becomes much more difficult (but also much more fun!).
I'd then prefer to keep the blank spheres untill you've actually used the surface scanner on them.

 

[Nazgutek]

Get rid of the DSS.


Better sensors improves the scanning time of any DS.


Scanning drains SYS capacitor.


IDS scans faster than BDS, uses more SYS Capacitor per second than BDS, and requires more powergrid. Same again for the ADS over the IDS. The idea is that the better scanners are faster, but you will expend more SYS Capacitor in total to achieve the scan.


All DS can find bodies at any range, but require more time for longer ranges.


Scanning is two stage: Omni-directional scan picks up 'contacts', which resolve down to actual bodies as time passes and SYS capacitor is used. Facing a 'contact' improves time needed to resolve. Once resolved you have the usual 'unexplored' body entry. Before the body is properly detected, you still have the ability to close distance to improve matters. Contacts show as a sphere in space that shrinks as you get closer to finishing the discovery scan for it.


Surface scans can be done at any range, requires facing the body, the further the body is and the smaller the body is increases time required. Better sensors, better grade of DS decreases time required. Being 'in orbit' would be near instant. Other bodies that are signficantly closer to the target than you are will increase scanning time as interference; in other words, you can scan all those gas giant's ice moons from afar, but it'll be far faster if you within their orbits so that the signals from the giant and the other moons don't interfere.


Upshot: BDS/IDS/ADS are a trade-off. Module slot pressure is reduced by not needing the DSS. You need a decent Power Distributor, and decent Sensors will help. Newbies with a BDS stand a chance of doing exploration without needing that 1.5mil for the ADS. Interaction with celestial bodies actually attempts to feel like you're searching for them, then closing in on them and finally fully scanning them.

 

[drkaii]

Hello Commanders!

There have been a number of threads and posts about the status of exploration scanning in the beta, including the detailed surface scanner module. This post is just to let folk know our thinking - I'm posting it here for maximum visibility.

For reference: currently in the beta, when entering a new system, you can use the basic discovery scanner to discover stellar bodies (up to the range of the scanner).

Discovered bodies will show in the system map as graphical representations, but in the planet map they will show as grid spheres.

You can perform a basic surface scan to learn details about the body and replace the grid sphere with a visual representation of the body’s surface.

Some folk have suggested that they would prefer to have the surface of a body revealed in the planet map by the initial basic exploration scan, as that detail can inform them whether they wish to investigate the body further. This is a reasonable suggestion.

Other folk have suggested that bodies discovered by a basic scan should remain as blank spheres in the system map until they have received the attention of a detailed surface scan, as the mystery would entice further investigation. This is also a reasonable suggestion.

And yet other folk think the current system is good to go and this is also clearly reasonable.

So it’s fair to say there are some different opinion on this matter .

Whilst we can’t supply guarantees or ETAs, we just want to make clear that the current implementation does not necessarily represent the finished version of exploration scanning (or exploration in general, just the version that will go out with 2.2 The Guardians.

So please feel free to make suggestions for improvements (in this thread would be a good place to pop them) and to let us know what you think of the current implementation.

Sandro, I'd say don't get too bogged down with this, it feels like the time just isn't right. Please just let us know that one day you plan to flesh out exploration mechanics in general, including scanning, with different grades of scanners that reveal different things, with new things to find and new reasons to find them. I know one day you plan to make exploration much richer, and when the time is right we know you will deliver!

I'm sure you are aware of the exploration community request list (in my sig) and we are very grateful you are slowly ticking things off from it

 

[CMDR StackOfCups]

The ADS should reveal planet surfaces

 

[marx]

Like elsewhere, I vote for what was originally promised, and implemented in the majority of the betas: having the detailed (zoomed-in) surface map available after the D-scanner ping, without requiring a detailed scan.

To me, that worked better in testing, as I started to pay attention to the numerous ice moons more. If I'll have to detail-scan them again to check out their surfaces, I won't - too much game time for too little reward. Most of them are uninteresting and worth a pittance of credits, after all.


Also, since you asked for feedback on changing how exploration scanning works, please rebalance the credit rewards. I don't just mean that they are too low in general, but that they are inconsistent. For example, pinging and jumping to the next system immediately is more profitable per time than stopping to scan any planets. The only exception to this is neutron star farming, where you go to regions high in NS-s and spend all your time scanning those. Another example: why are terraforming candidate water worlds worth as much or in some cases, even more than Earth-like worlds, which need no terraforming?
Changing how scanning works would be good, but I'd say that the rewards for exploration also need to be looked at, and such a change should be much easier to implement.

Oh, and could you make exploration missions which involve planetary surveys (salvage sites, war zone scanning etc) more frequent? I quite like doing those, but finding the missions on offer can be very difficult.

 

[SushiCW]

Hello Commander MyHammer!

So i guess one of the things we're asking for in this thread is: what kind of more fundametnal changes to exploration and sanning would folk be interested in seeing?

I'm OK with the current proposed changes about how scanners will work in 2.2, but if you're asking for more "fundamental changes" ideas, here it goes:

There needs to be better rewards for scanning systems in depth, rather than jump-honking your way from place to place and only sticking around if there are earth-likes or neutron stars. IMHO both "maximum coverage" and "maximum depth" exploration should gain you credits / rank at about the same rate. You could cover dozens of systems in the time it takes you to thoroughly explore one, and which option you choose should entirely be a matter of preference and have little to no effect on reward.

I'd also like to see more reward / engagement for exploring planet surfaces, like gaining exploration credits for every micro-resource you confirm can be found on a new world, or for finding / scanning the new geysers, or sampling ores from a planet ring, etc. Simply put, I want there to be more compelling reasons and feedback for getting out of supercruise to explore. And ideally the rewards would be balanced such that "Honk & jump through a hundred systems an hour" and "spend a whole hour thoroughly exploring a handful of planets in one system" are both about equally rewarding.

 

[wstephenson]

So i guess one of the things we're asking for in this thread is: what kind of more fundametnal changes to exploration and sanning would folk be interested in seeing?

Aside from the many ideas about what/to scan fo, I propose the following gameplay changes for exploration:

• Explorer's Charter missions from factions for a hefty bonus on top of the exploration payouts:
  • Find us 1 (unexplored/undiscovered) (planet|star) of <type> [within x LY] ASAP.
  • Find us any number of (unexplored/undiscovered) (planets|stars) of <type> [within x LY], time limit y weeks.
    • Redeeming exploration data at other factions/cancelling mission with unredeemed exploration data while mission active should reduce rep with mission giver
• Scanner use should involve a risk/reward calculation
  • Visibility to threats: scanning creates an Info window event for other players "[Active exploration scan signature from (shiptype|pilot name) detected" similar to "X has deployed hardpoints", or if used in normal space, creates a PoI in supercruise visible to other players at a range dependent on scanner type.
  • Psycho NPC ships and /any other tentacled nasties/ are attracted to scans
  • This risk would create a motivation for careful (short range) vs greedy (long range) scan behaviour. Eventually, more scan modules/modes. Consider Range and Resolution as independent scanner attributes
  • This creates a minimal additional bug-eyed alien risk in unpopulated systems but adds a frisson to 'Space Tourist' behaviour in 'unexplored' but populated systems, and
  • ..could be extended into 'reconnaissance' exploration of opposing factions' systems.
• Introduce factors to modulate scanner performance to stimulate players trying alternative exploration tactics
  • Some star classes degrade absolute scan range when in proximity to the star
  • Some bodies may only be scanned from a shorter range

 

[mossfoot]

Since there are a variety of opinions and 2 virtually unused scanners (BDS and IDS), I would highly suggest having multiple options and replace the 2 unused scanners:

All of these would have infinite range:

1) basic scanner: shows only black spheres and stars
2) intermediate scanner: shows full color system maps, but no zoomable planets before a direct scan
3) advanced scanner: shows full color map and zoomable planet surfaces

Oh course there should also be some incentive structure for using the basic and intermediate versions, for example: cost, weight, power usage, size, slot type used (utility vs internal).

Obsidiant Ant made a video showing how each scanner level would work starting at t=4:31

https://youtu.be/iGQafi6K7v0?t=4m31s

I think this nails it. Right now the basic and intermediate scanners are pointless once you can afford something better. This I think at least feels more like a progression of usefulness.

Details need to be hashed out, but perhaps a slight weight difference between the three as well (.5/1/1.5 tons?)

And of course hopefully this this would be a stepping stone towards more exploration content/mechanics, like finding more use for the detailed discovery scanner (like geological features (gysers), heavier concentrations of certain mats, pointing out certain types of persistent POIs, perhaps?)

Basically I think the post by Ziljan and video by Obsidian Ant cover an option that will add to scanning/exploration for now, but should not be thought of as being in a vacuum (despite it being space, heh). If the devs are going to has out what to do with scanners, I hope it's both in a "here and now" and "down the road" mentality. What's being proposed could happen soonish, before season 3 - but every explorer here I think wants to know you've got more plans for season 3 onward for exploration.

 

[Valderon]

I think expecting a player to use a detail scanner to get the surface map is the wrong approach. Surface maps should be available from an ADS scan. I think the scan should just be just the visuals and the ADS would not give players the mineral breakdown. Here is my suggestions for a more interesting exploration gameplay loop.

1. Jump into a system honk
2. Check out the system map and take a look at the visuals of planets (hopefully an ornery view in future to see orbits and things better), listen to their sounds and decide which planets might be worth further investigation.
3. Suggestion for new feature (Explorer limpet probes) I pick planets to shoot probes to. An explore probe would work just like a detailed surface scanner. It would give a very detailed mineral and info breakdown of the planet. (Maybe the entire planet or just an area. Possible multiple probes need to be use for entire planet etc) It would also drop a few POIs on a planet. I would also suggest limpets and detail scanners that are specialized in finding certain POIs. Like a probe that has higher chances to find for downed ships, or aliens... but they don't exist right?
4. As an explorer launches their probes at the candidates they think "look" interesting (we need that surface scan!) The explorer can take fly the mother ship toward the most interesting area while the probes fly elsewhere. Most likely in the opposite direction of the mothership.
5. The probes land and report back. The explore can then make an assessment on what could possible be worth further exploration by the mothership.
6. Note: explorer/probes can be built using minerals sourced from planets. They will need resources found while exploring planets.

For me the gameplay loop should be about give the player more breadcrumbs to follow. Its a mystery and we need clues to follow. We need way more than pointing our ships and waiting 30 seconds to just to get a detail scan.

I would also suggest that thinking about ADS and detail scanner that need bigger class slots. Explorers usually have empty slots and if you want to be a serious explorer let us dedicate a class 4-5 slot. The bigger scanners can provide better/faster scans. Also using a slot toward a 3d printer explorer probe(s) would be great. Engineers could modify all of these components to tweak what type of explorer we can specialize in. Do we want to get a boost to find the unknown? A boost to find minerals? Just look for down ships? Probes that give a boost to just find arsenic? etc.

 

[XCNuse]

Feels a bit repetitive to say; but without changing so much of the base gameplay, I think Frontier needs to stay limited in their processes at this "late" in the game. More people will come, some people will leave, but changing the fundamentals of how we know how to play [explore], can be a very dangerous thing.


There was a thread mentioning using the 3 different scanners to get 3 different results.

My idea?
Increase the cost of these scanners to provide different results.

If you want a low cost explorer, you can have a small ship, with a basic system scanner and surface scanner. A low cost solution; but you get what you pay for.
Black spheres on a system map until you "surface" scan them (basic scan only, not necessarily an actual surface scanner).

Intermediate scanner; increased cost (bump up to maybe 1m for intermediate system scanner?)
but you get the map we have in 2.1; full system map visible, grids in planetary view.

Advanced scanner; it's expensive.... could it even be nerfed to a size 2 slot? Maybe not, but 5m in credits to own a scanner that gets you the planetary maps as well?
I would still buy it, and I will still be happy.


At the end of it, this solution I truly believe suits all needs from all directions.
You can limit yourself, or go limitless.
You just have to spend the credits.


With places like Sothis allowing cmdrs to get Anacondas within a week or two of gameplay; there shouldn't be any hesitation to increase costs for something that makes your life "easy" in the game.

 

[[VR] optimal_909]

Like elsewhere, I vote for what was originally promised, and implemented in the majority of the betas: having the detailed (zoomed-in) surface map available after the D-scanner ping, without requiring a detailed scan.

To me, that worked better in testing, as I started to pay attention to the numerous ice moons more. If I'll have to detail-scan them again to check out their surfaces, I won't - too much game time for too little reward. Most of them are uninteresting and worth a pittance of credits, after all.


Also, since you asked for feedback on changing how exploration scanning works, please rebalance the credit rewards. I don't just mean that they are too low in general, but that they are inconsistent. For example, pinging and jumping to the next system immediately is more profitable per time than stopping to scan any planets. The only exception to this is neutron star farming, where you go to regions high in NS-s and spend all your time scanning those. Another example: why are terraforming candidate water worlds worth as much or in some cases, even more than Earth-like worlds, which need no terraforming?
Changing how scanning works would be good, but I'd say that the rewards for exploration also need to be looked at, and such a change should be much easier to implement.

Oh, and could you make exploration missions which involve planetary surveys (salvage sites, war zone scanning etc) more frequent? I quite like doing those, but finding the missions on offer can be very difficult.

Indeed, and again this is the wrong way to lead the discussion - future plans and how to proceed with 2.2 are two very different things. Evidence shows, that current proposal wil p**s off the majority of players.

I can't believe the way it is handled by FD.

 

[Thetele]

I would keep beta 7 behavior but make basic/surface scan range much higher and faster than its currently. Scan should only take 1-3 seconds not 10+ seconds. Scan for star should be possible to do while in same system no max distance, gas planets 10 000 ls away, planets 50 000-10 000 ls away and moons 10 000-5 000ls. This way surface scanning would be faster than currently in 2.1 and players would do it. No other changes than just faster scanning and longer scanner range. Would eliminate honk, system map, jump behavior, but shorter full system scan time a lot.

Just hiding planet info after honk would be bda move but with changes to scan times and ranges it wouldn't be bad and would encourage players to scan systems.

Above is really simple change. Of course i would wan't much deeper mechanics than just pointing and waiting x seconds, but implementing exploration mechanics that would involve skill and game play would be really hard task to do.