Exploration Scans

[ShadowWolf Kell]

Not to nitpick or anything but how is making the planet map accessable only via a DSS scan immersive and realistic? Especially when said DSS can't penetrate the planet (without handwavium), or do a full 360 degree scan (again without handwavium) from several LS away? People bring up immersion, but ignore the glaringly obvious.

Or the fact that the ADS operates well beyond the speed of light.. and tachyons and neutrinos for that matter.

Gimping the already almost nonexistant exploration model is going to solve nothing in either the short term, or the long run. We need full blown exploration mechanics, not a blanked out map or DSS scans for planetary maps without a full blown system to fully support that form of gameplay. Settling for anything less is silly.


I'm perfectly willing to wait for a REAL exploration overhaul. I'm not willing to accept some half-      alternative that's more arcade action as far as depth goes.

 

[[VR] optimal_909]

Those poll questions was not a straight up and down vote, how many of the people that voted yes based that on it being optional and were not intending to use that option. The exact wording of a poll question is just as important as the result.

Sandro I suggest you run a poll yourself with the right question if you want serious data to base your decisions on. For the most part the community lacks the objectivity to write these questions themselves. That’s just human nature and is not intended to be a criticism.

The "yes" question was worded as "do you want it in an optional or standard way", this one hand suggests whether the voter her/himself wants the feature, on the other han included the standard way. If anyone voted yes out of goodwill for others, then he/she misread the answer.

That poll was worded carefully not to suggest an answer (unlike others), had 2 simple options and also by far the most voters.

FD should ignore it on its own peril, I think it won't go down well after release.

 

[Shar]

The problem is the immediate hostility to the idea that it requires more than jumping into a system and honking your horn to get a full overview of everything there is in the system, because despite the explorer profession being the least developed and lowest skill requirement of the 'core professions' we have people deriding how this will effect the 'canyon racer profession' and 'interesting screenshot taking' professions. Granted, many of the proposals, and there are some brilliant ones in this thread, would take time to implement but the central counter argument to them all seems to be that people should be able to whiz through the galaxy honking their horn and only stopping to cherry pick HVT's and anything other than this would hurt their bottom line, thus, time sink. So it doesn't matter how much development time F-Dev throw at this if that is peoples attitude.

You nailed it, the same pattern everytime frontier try to make anything a little more complex. I'm getting my notebook ready as i'm about to get lectured on the meaning of the word complex. I'm content with the knowledge that 2.2 will go live as is and for sometime thereafter.

 

[Shar]

The "yes" question was worded as "do you want it in an optional or standard way", this one hand suggests whether the voter her/hisself wants the feature, on the other han included the standard way. If anyone voted yes out of goodwill for others, then he/she misread the answer.

That poll was worded carefully not to suggest an answer (unlike others), had 2 simple options and also by far the most voters.

FD should ignore it on its own peril, I think it won't go down well after release.

I voted yes based on it bieng optional, because then i did not have to use it, if it were a simple Yes/No then i would have voted no so with all due respect i'm not sure how you felt this was made clear. Two simple options would have been Yes/No so i will stand by my privious comments but respect you're right to disagree. But i can see we can actually agree as long as it's optional.

 

[Adidane]

This is the prospect that disturbs me the most.

If I were not able to see the type of planets in a system as we already do from the discovery scanner I would never scan any of those planets. It's simply not worth the time investment.

Exploration is already a HUGE time sink, we don't need "features" that require yet more time to be sunk into each system.

Totally agree. When I do a discovery scan I want to see the planets in colour and surface mapped. A don't want to see the blank planets

 

[Alien]

Hello Commanders!

There have been a number of threads and posts about the status of exploration scanning in the beta, including the detailed surface scanner module. This post is just to let folk know our thinking - I'm posting it here for maximum visibility.

For reference: currently in the beta, when entering a new system, you can use the basic discovery scanner to discover stellar bodies (up to the range of the scanner).

Discovered bodies will show in the system map as graphical representations, but in the planet map they will show as grid spheres.

You can perform a basic surface scan to learn details about the body and replace the grid sphere with a visual representation of the body’s surface.

Some folk have suggested that they would prefer to have the surface of a body revealed in the planet map by the initial basic exploration scan, as that detail can inform them whether they wish to investigate the body further. This is a reasonable suggestion.

Other folk have suggested that bodies discovered by a basic scan should remain as blank spheres in the system map until they have received the attention of a detailed surface scan, as the mystery would entice further investigation. This is also a reasonable suggestion.

And yet other folk think the current system is good to go and this is also clearly reasonable.

So it’s fair to say there are some different opinion on this matter .

Whilst we can’t supply guarantees or ETAs, we just want to make clear that the current implementation does not necessarily represent the finished version of exploration scanning (or exploration in general, just the version that will go out with 2.2 The Guardians.

So please feel free to make suggestions for improvements (in this thread would be a good place to pop them) and to let us know what you think of the current implementation.

For some strange reason, I read this in Sandro's voice ... I am weird

I would like the Detailed Surface Scanner to have a purpose. At the moment (pre-2.2) it is useless if you fit an Advanced Discovery Scanner, as that scans a planet if you fly close to it. I'd like the Detailed Surface Scanner to be the only thing that actually scans the surface. Otherwise remove it from the game if the Basic, Intermediate and Advanced scanners do it anyway.

 

[[VR] optimal_909]

I voted yes based on it bieng optional, because then i did not have to use it, if it were a simple Yes/No then i would have voted no so with all due respect i'm not sure how you felt this was made clear. Two simple options would have been Yes/No so i will stand by my privious comments but respect you're right to disagree. But i can see we can actually agree as long as it's optional.

Then we agree to disagree about the wording, it was clear I think with the wording "standard or optional", suggesting you want it either optional or standard, just to keep the function in game.

 

[Alex Ringess]

The way ADS is actualy working (2.1 version I meant) is good. So let it as it is.


This is how Surface Scanner should work :

It must reveal a detailed planetary surface on the system map (if not used, then the system map still show what it show on the 2.1), the POIs, the places with interests and the places where ressources could be found.

Sandro, I wonder why you asked us again ? Did you forget what you did ?

 

[Ziljan]

I can't believe FD is considering making up its mind based on an unrepresentetive thread, yet ignoring an almost 1000-strong poll.

85 posters and 997 votes? Me thinks people are voting early and often. . When the poll had 85 votes, the result was 50/50. After which point, the Kremlin apparently got involved.

If a poll is taken under consideration, it should be a legitimate one, linked to player accounts. But most importantly it should include an "All of the Above" option. Because pitting players against each other is unnecessary.

Otherwise it's like saying "we can have only one ship in the game, choose wisely". I chose all of the above, because having options is what makes the game richer and allows for the greatest number of happy CMDRs.

 

[Deleted member 38366]

I wouldn't mind seeing some changes to the way Scanners reveal Stellar bodies.

Although highly practical, it always felt cheesy
- honking Adv. Scanner
- check System Map
- instantly find out what you're looking at (Scanner is really only needed to "make it official and document" what you already know at this point)
- if in doubt, locking up a Planet at any distance also instantly reveals if it's an Icy Body (if the System Map display was unclear), or listen to the Planet in System Map (Audio gives its exact type away)

So with that in mind, here's my thoughts (just thinking aloud) :

Black Spheres until Detail-Scanned : not a bad idea but has requirements
- drastically higher payouts for 1st Discoveries
- higher payouts for re-scans (not a 1st Discovery)
- no more Audio-Reveal of the Body type in the System Map
- Detail-Scan should get some more bells & jingles to make it more interesting than it now is
- Detail-Scan should have a chance to pick up some rare/insteresting/weird stuff, in order to give additional incentives to scan bodies and an occasional distinct reward for doing so (not Credits)
- a SuperCruise-capable scanning probe (working a bit like a Fighter in Guardians, just in SC and for scanning bodies only) would greatly benefit Exploration under these conditions and help compensate for the added time needed
- alternatively/additionally, Engineer Mods that go beyond "Lightweight/Generic" for the Exploration equipment surely wouldn't harm

 

[sndle9]

Id like the scanning progression to be thus:-

The Basic, Intermediate and Advanced scanners are only able to show what the planet looks like on honk (scanner range dependent), but only to the System map standard (not zoomed in) and no description or actual composition data above 'it looks like an earth-like in the map' as that should be possible from a distance. This may be good enough to decide if a body warrants further investigation.

The Detailed surface scanner should stop being a separate object, but it's function should be incorporated into the Advanced scanner to provide the full composition details of a specific planet at short range close inspection. Possibly including POI's as you are hovering directly above the planet at the time.

For the proper explorers, an explorer limpet module (replacing the current DSS module) should be available so you can 'tag' interesting planets and send very high velocity probes off to perform the detailed scans as above without needing to fly to all bodies yourself.

I believe the above would be an acceptable balance on players being able to decide what may be worth investigating personally as well as giving explorers a clear tool for mapping out entire systems as they go.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

85 posters and 997 votes? Me thinks people are voting early and often. . When the poll had 85 votes, the result was 50/50. After which point, the Kremlin apparently got involved.

If a poll is taken under consideration, it should be a legitimate one, linked to player accounts. But most importantly it should include an "All of the Above" option.

I'd agree with the 'proper' account linked votes for any official polls, but I very often read the OP, then vote in the poll without leaving a message as I've given my thoughts on their proposal in the poll vote.

Voting before reading the OP is a bit too hasty as you may miss the point of the poll and polls with clearly loaded choices (often the case on any public forum) should be ignored.

I'm not so sure on an 'All of the above' option as I know that when you ask any group of people what they want, if one of the options is "Everything!", they will (almost) all pick that one and it's not always good to try and please everyone because of scope creep etc.

 

[Ziljan]

I'm not so sure on an 'All of the above' option as I know that when you ask any group of people what they want, if one of the options is "Everything!", they will (almost) all pick that one and it's not always good to try and please everyone because of scope creep etc.

Obsidian Ant made a video showing how an "All of the Above" option would work starting at t=4:31.
There are incentives for each level so that none would ever become obsolete, unlike the current Basic and Intermediate versions which are both functionally obsolete in 2.1.

[video=youtube_share;iGQafi6K7v0]https://youtu.be/iGQafi6K7v0?t=4m31s[/video]

 

[killminster]

My feelings are that reducing the functionality we already have a the behest of the hardcore and vocal "We want more challenge/depth to exploring" wing of the community would upset a lot more people than it pleased (Myself being in the upset camp if you want to know).

My own opinion on making exploring more rewarding and deep is that you should be building on what we already have and not making the process more restrictive and arduous.

So, for the moment I would like the basic/intermediate/advanced scanner and nav beacon behave the same as they do now, still at least showing the basic thumbnail in the system schematic view.

Now for the new functionality of beautiful-planet-model-in-system-map I can see valid points on both sides regarding showing it or limiting it to planets that have had a DSS. My gut instinct is that I want it now as that was one of the QOL improvements that I was most looking forwards to trying out myself.

I still think that the DSS itself needs a reworking, I've always imagined/daydreamed its functionality being along the lines of generating a series of different maps of the planet denoting information such as false colour maps of resource deposits, seismic activity, climate, POI, natural/unnatural/unidentified signal sources, etc.

For the explorers I also think that they should be rewarded for doing a scan of all bodies in the system, a stacking 50% on top of the total they've earned from the scans and bonus for discoveries would make the extra effort worthwhile.

 

[iTzNikkitty]

Personally, I feel that the difference between scanners being based on range isn't all that great. Pretty much everyone wants to have the infinite range of the ADS, so chances are they aren't going to use anything else but that. I think it's clear that a majority of players want the ADS to reveal planet surfaces, although, there is still a significant number of people that like the idea of only seeing the planet surfaces upon a surface scan, and some people even like the idea of a stellar scan not even showing what planets look like in the system map at first. Rather than making it so the scanners will only suit one of those playstyles, how about we make it so they can suit them all? Instead of the difference between basic, intermediate, and advanced discovery scanners being range, why not have it be their accuracy? It could work like this:

Basic Discovery Scanner: Infinite range - low accuracy (planets are undetailed in system map and zooming in only shows the planetary grid)
Intermediate Discovery Scanner: Infinite range - medium accuracy (planets are detailed in system map, but zooming in only shows planetary grid)
Advanced Discovery Scanner: Infinite range - high accuracy (planets are detailed in system map and surface maps are shown immediately)

This would suit all three playstyles and would provide a more interesting distinction between the three types of stellar scanners. I think it's a win-win.

Also, the detailed surface scanner does need some work. It doesn't really need to happen right now, as I think it would benefit more from added features rather than by taking away current features. As a lot of people have said before, I love the idea of the surface scanner working like the concept for the exploration scanner. It could create a false color map which shows where certain resources are abundant and perhaps even clearly show the geological features of the planet, such as fault lines or hot spots, plus, it could also show the location of points of interest, giving you a reference point for where to search when flying or in your SRV.

 

[WillFrog]

The problem is that the DSS doesn't really do anything except get you a few more credits. Will needing to scan the planet to see detail in the system map make exploring any more fun? No, not really. In which case you might as well generate detailed surface maps from the discovery ping and not inconvenience people who want to look at planets for canyon racing or whatever.

Ultimately the current system wants chucking out in favour of, I dunno, some kind of spectroscopy minigame to find interesting planets and then detailed scans to reveal places of interest. Until then, leave things as they are. Give us more stuff to do when exploring, don't take things away.

 

[Shadowdancer]

Other folk have suggested that bodies discovered by a basic scan should remain as blank spheres in the system map until they have received the attention of a detailed surface scan, as the mystery would entice further investigation. This is also a reasonable suggestion.

On a basic level, I support that approach, but not as exploration works or pays at the moment. To get decent pay over time from exploration, it is currently very much vital to be able to cherry-pick the well-paying bodies in a system. Having to chance around the entire system in the hopes of finding bodies that are worth the time would lower the payout that is already not that great compared to other careers.

Having the unknown be unknown is a good thing though, and should remain in the cards for future work on the exploration career. Maybe something related to scanning at least the central star of a system to derive further information like showing the goldilocks zone on the system map or divining a chance for metal-rich or inhabitable planets. That map might make a decent workspace for explorers even.

 

[Noogillim]

TBH the most infuriating thing for me with the scanners is that with the DSS to see what that mahoosive ball of fire is taking up my screen, I have to centre the Star for it to scan.

 

[Martind Forlon]

The problem is that the DSS doesn't really do anything except get you a few more credits.

... just want remind that this statement is not exactly true, you have now some real and practical bonus from using DSS when it reveals micro-materials composition and quantity (chance for find). I hope for much more in the future, but what we have now is for sure better as it was before.

 

[WillFrog]

... just want remind that this statement is not exactly true, you have now some real and practical bonus from using DSS when it reveals micro-materials composition and quantity (chance for find). I hope for much more in the future, but what we have now is for sure better as it was before.

Wait, doesn't the discovery scanner reveal mats in 2.1? In which case that's taking something away again instead of adding stuff.

 

[[VR] optimal_909]

85 posters and 997 votes? Me thinks people are voting early and often. . When the poll had 85 votes, the result was 50/50. After which point, the Kremlin apparently got involved.

If a poll is taken under consideration, it should be a legitimate one, linked to player accounts. But most importantly it should include an "All of the Above" option. Because pitting players against each other is unnecessary.

Otherwise it's like saying "we can have only one ship in the game, choose wisely". I chose all of the above, because having options is what makes the game richer and allows for the greatest number of happy CMDRs.

Your post speaks volumes, and exposed who you are - at this point any meaningful reaction is unnecessary.