Do you care about preventing combat logging?

[wenkman]

So you wish the whining would go away yet hope Frontier does nothing to fix the problem?

exactly.

but that is a divided opinion.

part 1: man up and stop whining. nobody is gonna help you.
part 2: knows that this is not realistic, just because a problem does not affect me, doesn't mean it does not affect others. these others may have a point wanting their problem to be fixed. whining is an approved method to get the devs to change the game. so i think whining serves the purpose of the gankers, but want it to stop nonetheless.

in short: voted no.

 

[Comrade Error]

Glad we agree on this. On the last point:
Yes, there are PvE pirates, but it's completely lacking features. I'd start by introducing a communication system for NPCs, with threatening and demanding cargo.
PvP piracy is possible as advertised, as long as both players are OK with it. When I bought the game it wasn't advertised as "you'll be the content and enjoyment of others and forced to suffer from your losses". Yes, I know that's what people sign up for when they enter Open, but that's essentially the problem here.

Well yea PvE piracy could use features as well but apart from maybe NPCs rebooting PvE piracy is definetly playable and usually works.

It's possible yea but when something is advertised as possible I expect it also to work. If you are not OK with PvP piracy there is always another mode. You were, with a little bit of common sense you can connect the dots that you can become that ''fellow commander''. But if you don't want to that's fine, if you have no interest in actual PvP piracy then there is solo or PG where you can play with your friends.

That's the thing, people don't understand what they sign up for or don't care when they press open. I would like to see new systems both for crime and punishment but even after that PvP piracy, PvP bounty hunting or ganking will still be a thing it will just have the proper risks and rewards. If you can't live with that then yes, press solo or PG.

Quote:

Why buy cargo when you can pirate it from a fellow Commander?

 

[Shadowdancer]

I only play solo or private group, so I honestly don't give a damn.

 

[Riverside]

I want to PvP piracy as advertised I would be able to as a gameplay feature.

In order to do any kind of PvP activity (as advertised) successfully both parties need to be happy (at some level) to take part. The game allows for the scenario, you just need to find the right 'victim' for it to be a success, so to my mind, the game is no more at fault here than the board & pieces when playing Monopoly with a sore loser.

If you play at PvP Pirate, I am your content. I don't want to get mugged (and I certainly don't want my ship to be destroyed), but I realise & accept it is something that could happen. My gameplay isn't about enjoying getting mugged (pirated), it's about avoiding it (and sometimes failing to the more wily opponent).

So while I derive gameplay from your piracy (or even straight ganking, or holding ground), it is in avoiding you. Really you will never meet me unless I'm careless.

Another aspect of being mugged that can be satisfying is beating off your attacker, making them run away or even destroying their ship. Teaching them a lesson if you like. These are all good gameplay for the victim, and occasionally being beaten is the acceptable price for that fun (that Combat Logging undermines).

So the game allows you to be a PvP pirate if you choose, but in order for it to be a valid option there needs to be something in it for your victim to make them want to stay.

Last time I was interdicted by a player it was a CG blockade in Maia (I was actually visiting Palin & not part of the CG). They were in an appropriate ship (FDL), with an appropriate loadout (although no manifest scanner). They successfully got a tether (I lost to the superior skill), beat me in the minigame (I lost to their skill) but they were unable to engage me successfully (my experience/planning beat theirs at the final hurdle). It was exciting for both of us, and would have been even if I'd lost my ship. He roleplayed the Blockader well, I played my part & essentially talked my way out of having to high wake.

On the other hand another PvP encounter was when coming into land at a planetary port in a Conda. All the large pads were full so I was waiting for a pad. I saw someone lift off & moved into position to dock in their place when they simply opened fire without reason or warning. All I had to do was simply dock before my hull reached zero, but lack of practice in that ship meant I didn't quite make it in time. I Respawned hundreds of Ly away, fortunately didn't lose much else.

The lesson I learned wasn't that I should have combat logged, or that I shouldn't have gone there, it was to practice docking the bigger ships at ground bases, and to not underestimate the simplicity of some players' imaginations. That PvP experience was no more fun than being idly kicked under the table by a toddler.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

No, please. This is important. What's on your mind today?

The weekend of course!

 

[Andrew Gaspurr]

I guess FD want to have a certain percentage of players in 'Open', because it's their main universe so to say. Their jewel, their prestige object, their shiny.

That's why I doubt they will do anything drastic that would upset part of these Open players (particularly the more peaceful and non-agressive crowd). Implementing some malware spying on the 'disconnectivity' of said players, if made public, would create an uproar and a migration of players towards private groups; which they do not want. They don't want their player base fractured into countless 'guild servers'. It's a bit like every six dudes having their own Minecraft server, because... reasons.

I just don't think FD will let or make that happen. Plus, they know it would create a new wall of tickets and harassment reports each and every day, because it's only natural for the accused to defend themselves. And the support team is handed the Sword of Damocles. No amount of pizza could possibly compensate that.

 

[babelfisch]

I guess FD want to have a certain percentage of players in 'Open', because it's their main universe so to say. Their jewel, their prestige object, their shiny.

That's why I doubt they will do anything drastic that would upset part of these Open players (particularly the more peaceful and non-agressive crowd). Implementing some malware spying on the 'disconnectivity' of said players, if made public, would create an uproar and a migration of players towards private groups; which they do not want. They don't want their player base fractured into countless 'guild servers'. It's a bit like every six dudes having their own Minecraft server, because... reasons.

I just don't think FD will let or make that happen. Plus, they know it would create a new wall of tickets and harassment reports each and every day, because it's only natural for the accused to defend themselves. And the support team is handed the Sword of Damocles. No amount of pizza could possibly compensate that.

IMO the best fix would be to limit players to solo and pg for some time if they lost connection several times.

Players who have connectivity problems: You shouldn't play in Open if you drop all the time.
Players who are CLing: You shouldn't play in Open if you want to use exploits.

The funny part is that some PvPers are against this fix because there would be less victims in Open, even though they always argue players could just go to solo if they don't want to participate in PvP.

 

[Vasea Azure]

To be honest as a solo only player I dont really care about combat loggers. I just don't get one thing - if you so desperate to keep your ship that you resolving to combat logging, why you play in the open in the first place.

 

[Truesilver]

It's a problem that ONLY occurs in open, and ONLY impacts those seeking pvp

No. Sandro Sammarco is right and the above is wrong. A task-kill combat log is a cheat in any mode of play.

And not necessarily an academic one.

In the following examples a Solo or PG task-killer has used an immortality cheat to promote themselves over other players:

1. The explorer who task-kills to preserve data and thus gets his name on systems in place of a Cmdr whose journey overlapped with his, or future Cmdrs.

2. The CG-er who task-kills to preserve bounties or combat bonds and thus secures a top spot or percentage in place of another Cmdr competing in the same CG.

3. The Powerplayer who task-kills in order to preserve merits he is delivering to fortify a system, thus preventing players from another Power from successfully undermining that system.

4. The UA-bomber who task-kills when his drives are blown by an NPC pirate, thus preserving and delivering his Unknown Artefacts and taking another player group's station offline.

5. The BGS-attacker who works in Private Group with a wing, destroying NPC authority ships and task-killing when threatened so as most efficiently to tank the influence of a rival player group.

Every one of the above is merely cheating to win.

About 18 months ago FDev stated that players had been banned for using hacks to take the top spots in Conflict Zone CG's (doubtless in Solo).

A task-kill is the same as an immortality, hull always >1% hack. It is just a different means of achieving the cheat. Solo task-killing is the same as Solo hacking.

What is more it is always completely unnecessary and - even worse - sometimes I expect completely pre-meditated.

Some explorers fly defensible ships and seek player escort in Private Group from Cmdrs such as Iridium Wing. Whereas others use a min/maxed build and - let's be realistic - some must fly with their network cable clamped between their teeth when they get near the bubble.

And if they jerk that cable out, every system they secure their name on (permanently) over every other Cmdr in this game is a prize they just won by cheating.

And we haven't even got to Open yet ...

- - -

EDIT:- because I personally have not seen the above spelled out before and because I wish to challenge the notion that ED in Solo or PG is necessarily non-competitive I have started a new thread with an expanded version of this post here:

[LINK]https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/307147-Why-task-kill-combat-logging-in-Solo-is-a-cheat-and-can-affect-others?p=4762627#post4762627[/LINK]

Sorry, it doesn't have a poll!

 

[Ozram]

To be honest as a solo only player I dont really care about combat loggers. I just don't get one thing - if you so desperate to keep your ship that you resolving to combat logging, why you play in the open in the first place.

I've never been one for combat logging. I play Open only. I've been ganked at CGs in Open and I cop it and don't complain about that. Losing a ship and facing rebuy? Whatever, I've done it and will do it again. Now...
training up an NPC crewman for weeks on end, sharing millions with them every time you make any money whether you use them or not only to lose them because fd see fit to have them not be given an escape pod? I don't think so. When that day comes I will log, log, log!

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Some explorers fly defensible ships and seek player escort in Private Group from Cmdrs such as Iridium Wing. Whereas others use a min/maxed build and - let's be realistic - some must fly with their network cable clamped between their teeth when they get near the bubble.

And if they jerk that cable out, every system they secure their name on (permanently) over every other Cmdr in this game is a prize they just won by cheating.

With 400 billion systems to claim I as an explorer am really worried the unlikely event that some other CMDR tags a system I had tagged as well. Something that will happen anyway since my trips usually lasts for months.

Don't care.

 

[Comrade Error]

In order to do any kind of PvP activity (as advertised) successfully both parties need to be happy (at some level) to take part. The game allows for the scenario, you just need to find the right 'victim' for it to be a success, so to my mind, the game is no more at fault here than the board & pieces when playing Monopoly with a sore loser.

If you play at PvP Pirate, I am your content. I don't want to get mugged (and I certainly don't want my ship to be destroyed), but I realise & accept it is something that could happen. My gameplay isn't about enjoying getting mugged (pirated), it's about avoiding it (and sometimes failing to the more wily opponent).

So while I derive gameplay from your piracy (or even straight ganking, or holding ground), it is in avoiding you. Really you will never meet me unless I'm careless.

Another aspect of being mugged that can be satisfying is beating off your attacker, making them run away or even destroying their ship. Teaching them a lesson if you like. These are all good gameplay for the victim, and occasionally being beaten is the acceptable price for that fun (that Combat Logging undermines).

So the game allows you to be a PvP pirate if you choose, but in order for it to be a valid option there needs to be something in it for your victim to make them want to stay.

Last time I was interdicted by a player it was a CG blockade in Maia (I was actually visiting Palin & not part of the CG). They were in an appropriate ship (FDL), with an appropriate loadout (although no manifest scanner). They successfully got a tether (I lost to the superior skill), beat me in the minigame (I lost to their skill) but they were unable to engage me successfully (my experience/planning beat theirs at the final hurdle). It was exciting for both of us, and would have been even if I'd lost my ship. He roleplayed the Blockader well, I played my part & essentially talked my way out of having to high wake.

On the other hand another PvP encounter was when coming into land at a planetary port in a Conda. All the large pads were full so I was waiting for a pad. I saw someone lift off & moved into position to dock in their place when they simply opened fire without reason or warning. All I had to do was simply dock before my hull reached zero, but lack of practice in that ship meant I didn't quite make it in time. I Respawned hundreds of Ly away, fortunately didn't lose much else.

The lesson I learned wasn't that I should have combat logged, or that I shouldn't have gone there, it was to practice docking the bigger ships at ground bases, and to not underestimate the simplicity of some players' imaginations. That PvP experience was not more fun than being idly kicked under the table by a toddler.

Yes and it's very simple, if a PvE player doesn't want anything to do with PvP then you have 2 modes that you can join where you don't have to. If you join open and then quit as you are being robbed then yea you should be punished. It's not like you don't have any options. Besides with Monopoly there isn't no long term beyond that single game. And unlike monopoly Frontier can actually do something against sore losers as many games have done.

Why is that? Again there isn't much for me as a pirate to be killed by a bounty hunter, arguably even less than for the trader because the bounty hunter doesn't even need to interact with the pirate just kill him. I'm not too sure what you mean by ''something in it for the victim''. If you mean like some sort of reward or just a fun experience but if it's for the latter that ain't always possible and when it happens I don't think it's fair to just nitpick it away with combat logging. (I know you don't do that but to the people who would) Open is open so you gotta take the bad with the good if you want to play it.

 

[verminstar]

No. Sandro Sammarco is right and the above is wrong. A task-kill combat log is a cheat in any mode of play.

And not necessarily an academic one.

In the following examples a Solo or PG task-killer has used an immortality cheat to promote themselves over other players:

1. The explorer who task-kills to preserve data and thus gets his name on systems in place of a Cmdr whose journey overlapped with his, or future Cmdrs.

2. The CG-er who task-kills to preserve bounties or combat bonds and thus secures a top spot or percentage in place of another Cmdr competing in the same CG.

3. The Powerplayer who task-kills in order to preserve merits he is delivering to fortify a system, thus preventing players from another Power from successfully undermining that system.

4. The UA-bomber who task-kills when his drives are blown by an NPC pirate, thus preserving and delivering his Unknown Artefacts and taking another player group's station offline.

5. The BGS-attacker who works in Private Group with a wing, destroying NPC authority ships and task-killing when threatened so as most efficiently to tank the influence of a rival player group.

Every one of the above is merely cheating to win.

About 18 months ago FDev stated that players had been banned for using hacks to take the top spots in Conflict Zone CG's (doubtless in Solo).

A task-kill is the same as an immortality, hull always >1% hack. It is just a different means of achieving the cheat. Solo task-killing is the same as Solo hacking.

What is more it is always completely unnecessary and - even worse - sometimes I expect completely pre-meditated.

Some explorers fly defensible ships and seek player escort in Private Group from Cmdrs such as Iridium Wing. Whereas others use a min/maxed build and - let's be realistic - some must fly with their network cable clamped between their teeth when they get near the bubble.

And if they jerk that cable out, every system they secure their name on (permanently) over every other Cmdr in this game is a prize they just won by cheating.

And we haven't even got to Open yet ...

A golden rule of mine...enter solo mode within half a kylie of the bubble and about a hundred lillys fro jacques...no need to cl and in an unarmed ship, its much to risk months of scan data fer someones 10 second jollies.

 

[deleteduser]

No. Sandro Sammarco is right and the above is wrong. A task-kill combat log is a cheat in any mode of play.

And not necessarily an academic one.

In the following examples a Solo or PG task-killer has used an immortality cheat to promote themselves over other players:

*list of valid comment, ignored by the OP and supporters of CL'ing*

And we haven't even got to Open yet ...

I still haven't seen the OP respond to the points raised here and in my own comments. Where are you Sandmann, supporters, appeasers & apathists?

 

[Riverside]

I'm not too sure what you mean by ''something in it for the victim''. If you mean like some sort of reward or just a fun experience but if it's for the latter that ain't always possible and when it happens I don't think it's fair to just nitpick it away with combat logging. (I know you don't do that but to the people who would) Open is open so you gotta take the bad with the good if you want to play it.

The "something in it for the victim" simply means rewarding gameplay, I provided two examples at the end of my post. One rewarding for both, one pointless for both.

If you want people to stay & play with you, make your gameplay entertaining for them, as well as yourself. If you are a pirate & a BH comes after you, your gameplay isn't really very different from that of one of your own victims (as a pirate).

Earlier in this thread someone said the group they are in formed as a result of people not wanting to play with them, and so their playstyle changed from mugging other players, to simply bullying other players. Had they made the mugging experience less about dominating their victims in a mafia-like way & more about an exchange of services (providing protection in a mafia-like way) perhaps they would be enjoying themselves more now, and perhaps their customers would enjoy some benefits too. Opportunities missed from a simple lack of imagination, nothing FDev can do about that.

 

[babelfisch]

No. Sandro Sammarco is right and the above is wrong. A task-kill combat log is a cheat in any mode of play.

And not necessarily an academic one.

In the following examples a Solo or PG task-killer has used an immortality cheat to promote themselves over other players:

1. The explorer who task-kills to preserve data and thus gets his name on systems in place of a Cmdr whose journey overlapped with his, or future Cmdrs.

2. The CG-er who task-kills to preserve bounties or combat bonds and thus secures a top spot or percentage in place of another Cmdr competing in the same CG.

3. The Powerplayer who task-kills in order to preserve merits he is delivering to fortify a system, thus preventing players from another Power from successfully undermining that system.

4. The UA-bomber who task-kills when his drives are blown by an NPC pirate, thus preserving and delivering his Unknown Artefacts and taking another player group's station offline.

5. The BGS-attacker who works in Private Group with a wing, destroying NPC authority ships and task-killing when threatened so as most efficiently to tank the influence of a rival player group.

Every one of the above is merely cheating to win.

About 18 months ago FDev stated that players had been banned for using hacks to take the top spots in Conflict Zone CG's (doubtless in Solo).

A task-kill is the same as an immortality, hull always >1% hack. It is just a different means of achieving the cheat. Solo task-killing is the same as Solo hacking.

What is more it is always completely unnecessary and - even worse - sometimes I expect completely pre-meditated.

Some explorers fly defensible ships and seek player escort in Private Group from Cmdrs such as Iridium Wing. Whereas others use a min/maxed build and - let's be realistic - some must fly with their network cable clamped between their teeth when they get near the bubble.

And if they jerk that cable out, every system they secure their name on (permanently) over every other Cmdr in this game is a prize they just won by cheating.

And we haven't even got to Open yet ...

That's exactly why I can't take the CL debates serious, way too much drama. Do you really think someone combat logging in Solo negatively affects your gameplay?

Yes and it's very simple, if a PvE player doesn't want anything to do with PvP then you have 2 modes that you can join where you don't have to. If you join open and then quit as you are being robbed then yea you should be punished. It's not like you don't have any options. Besides with Monopoly there isn't no long term beyond that single game. And unlike monopoly Frontier can actually do something against sore losers as many games have done.

Why is that? Again there isn't much for me as a pirate to be killed by a bounty hunter, arguably even less than for the trader because the bounty hunter doesn't even need to interact with the pirate just kill him. I'm not too sure what you mean by ''something in it for the victim''. If you mean like some sort of reward or just a fun experience but if it's for the latter that ain't always possible and when it happens I don't think it's fair to just nitpick it away with combat logging. (I know you don't do that but to the people who would) Open is open so you gotta take the bad with the good if you want to play it.

This is true. On the other hand, if you'd ask everyone who doesn't like to get blown up to join solo or a hypothetical PvE mode you wouldn't have much fun in Open. Just like your argument with Sandman, I agree with both of you.

 

[zombieapocalypse]

Yes and no! Combat logging and the crime and punishment system are two intertwined problems. The latter needs a complete rethink and overhaul, so that murdering other Commanders has meaningful consequences and will make people think twice before ganking. On top of that, it needs to be structured to make it fun and challenging but also rewarding. Being an outlaw should be exciting "career path", but also one that requires dedication and sacrifice. A big ask I feel!

I'm not advocating combat logging by any means (as far as I'm concerned it's an exploit), but those who resort to it use the poorly implemented crime and punishment system as justification; and in that sense, I can empathise. With regard to people combat logging in solo - it's not in the spirit of the game, but at the same time it doesn't have much bearing on anyone else. Much in the same way that people who cheat in single player games are only really cheating themselves.

 

[Wolf Starslayer]

While I have some sympathy with CL's in circumstances of toxic gameplay it's still wrong and needs fixing. I would REALLY like the fix to be introduced in conjunction with a c&p update to diminish some of the perceived reasons to do it.

 

[Comrade Error]

That's exactly why I can't take the CL debates serious, way too much drama. Do you really think someone combat logging in Solo negatively affects your gameplay?



This is true. On the other hand, if you'd ask everyone who doesn't like to get blown up to join solo or a hypothetical PvE mode you wouldn't have much fun in Open. Just like your argument with Sandman, I agree with both of you.

Maybe not but again if you can't handle any type of PvP even after a C&P update then it would be dishonest of me to say open is for you.

(General 'you')

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Yes and no! Combat logging and the crime and punishment system are two intertwined problems. The latter needs a complete rethink and overhaul, so that murdering other Commanders has meaningful consequences and will make people think twice before ganking. On top of that, it needs to be structured to make it fun and challenging but also rewarding. Being an outlaw should be exciting "career path", but also one that requires dedication and sacrifice. A big ask I feel!

I'm not advocating combat logging by any means (as far as I'm concerned it's an exploit), but those who resort to it use the poorly implemented crime and punishment system as justification; and in that sense, I can empathise. With regard to people combat logging in solo - it's not in the spirit of the game, but at the same time it doesn't have much bearing on anyone else. Much in the same way that people who cheat in single player games are only really cheating themselves.

Yes but there are actual gankers who were once pirates but turned to ganking because of combat logging.

It's a vicious circle.

 

[mmm]

There are too many bugs ingame to prevent combat logging. I always have the task manager running when i'm playing ED to be able to quickly close the game before the client syncs with the server.
It happens too often that I get stuck in a deadly situation, or get almost insta-killed by an NPC.

I never combat log in a pvp fight though.