The Star Citizen Thread v5

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dsmart

Banned
Actually Derek... 1) and 3) are only inherently different/mutually exclusive if you disregard the existence of precision levels.

That's patently irrelevant within the scope of outlining the fundamental differences in context, definition, description of 1) and 3).

That's like trying to say a Grapefruit in a box, is different from a Grapefruit sitting on a table. It's a ludicrous argument if you then decide to focus on the properties (size, shape, markings etc) of the Grapefruits themselves, rather than their very existence in world space.

Nice try.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't see how any of these things falsify the fact that they're using 64-bit floating points for positioning.

I never made those claims. Do try to keep up. Or at least, cite sources like I tend to do, so we can debate them based on merits.

Further, what I was responding to was specifically that Ben is claiming that 1) and 3) are the same. I have outlined - with no room for obfuscation, why that argument is a non-starter and is devoid of any merit. So don't stray from the subject, nor make it about something else. It's boring, and a waste of everyone's time.
 
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That's patently irrelevant within the scope of outlining the fundamental differences in context, definition, description of 1) and 3).

That's like trying to say a Grapefruit in a box, is different from a Grapefruit sitting on a table. It's a ludicrous argument if you then decide to focus on the properties (size, shape, markings etc) of the Grapefruits themselves, rather than the very existence in world space.

Nice try.

How could this possibly be irrelevant, patently or otherwise.

This analogy has no correlation to the issue at hand.
It's about data size and how much you can do with it...

If you have 1000 "units" to store the numbers in that will describe your coordinate system, then the size of your "grapefruit and/or its box" will be directly related to the value of each of these units.
To be able to say that the grapefruit is at 16mm from one of the edges of the box, your box can only be 1x1 metres in size, otherwise you're simply running out of units to measure with.

Stating a positioning system and scene size are unrelated would imply that you could have instances where precision would effectively render the "outer shell" of your scene-space invalid, as it exceeds the limit of what you can represent with numerical coordinates.

...or in the grapefruit's case... it would literally be floating in the box "outside" of describable space. Therefore effectively not existing?
 
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*er*
RSI's Strike Commander page through the rosy bespectacled mirror

You can read the manual here archive.org link his hilarious comments are on p 45/6 where it clearly says he thought it was a 1 year project, ended up running to four and way over budget.
Whose fault is it? Everybody else's.

I can't see anything different about what's happening with SC now sadly.

LMAO. It used every trick in the book… except the ones that would have made it an efficient piece of software that could run well. It was notoriously poorly performing on any hardware without being particularly better looking — and definitely not better playing — than what was already out at the time.

As for being patterned on Hollywood blockbusters, well… sure, it tried to be Top Gun but instead only managed Iron Eagle. And it was exactly as derivative and predictable as that paragraph suggests. To top it off, it delivered that wooden narrative in a way that, if anything, was even less visually interesting than what they'd done in WC2, two years earlier.

The section in the manual is very revealing as far as Chris' lack of development insight goes. The whole bit about completely misjudging the time and money required is just the top of the iceberg. What makes me laugh the most is when he describes the challenges for the project, such as the “risky assumption” that PCs would get faster and cheaper over time. And the less said about his delusions of grandeur as far as making the games industry adopt well-known techniques like Gouraud shading the better. [hehe]
 
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I once went to a cheap concert...had nothing better to do that weekend

This kid went up with all the fanciest instruments and the latest, coolest gear. From pedals he only used once during the set to a microphone I'd expect to see a top YouTuber using. In the over-sized sound booth (that barely fit in this corner of the bar) stood a middle-aged gentleman wearing a Rolex and some expensive "casual" wear. Clearly the boy's father and the guy who bankrolled the whole production.

Ok, good gear, somewhat attractive musician at a venue I like. What could be bad? He pressed some button on some complicated looking device. A sample started playing. I recognized it as a melody from an old Death Cab song. Sounded great so far, great sample from a band I like being played over excellent sound equipment. Then he pulled out a guitar and what followed was a fairly basic composition riddled with missed notes and unnecessary embellishments. --watch me do this sweet solo!-- Dude, you are the only person up there!

The show finally ended...I missed much of the middle and end as I had a pitcher of beer blocking my view for most of it while I was drowning my disgust. After his set, dad was enthusiastic. For a moment, I was jealous, my father never got that excited about anything I did...but then I remembered I have a great career that I worked very hard for but got the support I needed from my pops when things got tough. This dad though, reminds me of the SC backer whale and the kid on stage is CR. He's got all the money he could ever need to get the best of the best but the end product is just an over-produced disappointment. Either way, the SC Rich Dads will continue to promote mediocrity so long as their Chris Roberts of a son keeps making them feel important.

All the gear, no idea. I know it well.

Amusingly, I know someone who worked in music PR. One of their clients was the band of the son of a very well-known (and well-off) UK businessman. They were apparently both purveyors of terrible music and pretty terrible as clients. The small PR company couldn't afford to get rid of them but hated working with them.

Sorry, back on topic!
 
LMAO. It used every trick in the book… except the ones that would have made it an efficient piece of software that could run well. It was notoriously poorly performing on any hardware without being particularly better looking — and definitely not better playing — than what was already out at the time.

As for being patterned on Hollywood blockbusters, well… sure, it tried to be Top Gun but instead only managed Iron Eagle. And it was exactly as derivative and predictable as that paragraph suggests. To top it off, it delivered that wooden narrative in a way that, if anything, was even less visually interesting than what they'd done in WC2, two years earlier.

The section in the manual is very revealing as far as Chris' lack of development insight goes. The whole bit about completely misjudging the time and money required is just the top of the iceberg. What makes me laugh the most is when he describes the challenges for the project, such as the “risky assumption” that PCs would get faster and cheaper over time. And the less said about his delusions of grandeur as far as making the games industry adopt well-known techniques like Gouraud shading the better. [hehe]

Awesome find, there are many parallels to the present situtation.

BTW: I think Chris Roberts problem is his understanding of what makes a good game. In the end all of his games were eye-candy in the first place. Graphics and sound always awesome and super hardware-hungry. Back in the days this was enough to impress the crowd, until you realize that there was not much regarding gameplay or narrative. Gameplay in Wing Commander games is a joke, super-repetetive, super simpel. Strike Commander was not much different, a very arcadey flight experience, far from realistic (compare it to falcon 3.0), far from beeing deep. Super funny is how these games simulated being a simulation by demanding you to remember keyboard-combos like ALT + G or whatever and throwing a lot of numbers and displays around in the cockpit. Also I loved the manuals giving you advice about different flight maneuvers in specific combat situations while in the game that made no sense.

The narratives in all of his games were basically copying 1970/80ies macho action- and scifi-movies tropes and characters.

If think about what the hard work of Roberts and his team was about, yo, there are better ways to spend your time and making 'revolutionary' games. But with todays possibilities Roberts love for eyecandy probably goes crazy, as you can see with the super-detailed modelling of everything that makes no sense at all regarding gameplay and the actual experience of playing 'the game'.
 
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The section in the manual is very revealing as far as Chris' lack of development insight goes. The whole bit about completely misjudging the time and money required is just the top of the iceberg. What makes me laugh the most is when he describes the challenges for the project, such as the “risky assumption” that PCs would get faster and cheaper over time. And the less said about his delusions of grandeur as far as making the games industry adopt well-known techniques like Gouraud shading the better. [hehe]
Precisely and doesn't it sound just like all the SC output now about their ground breaking techniques?

I feel I need to state it's even kinda fine if this is what's happening if only they'd be honest about it. It's starting to congeal into an admission of where things really stand but I think our next best bet of an honest state of affairs report will be after the 2.6 launch date.
 
Precisely and doesn't it sound just like all the SC output now about their ground breaking techniques?

I feel I need to state it's even kinda fine if this is what's happening if only they'd be honest about it. It's starting to congeal into an admission of where things really stand but I think our next best bet of an honest state of affairs report will be after the 2.6 launch date.

As the saying goes these days: oh, sweet summer child.

This is a man who can't offer an honest state of affairs on something that he released 23 years ago — long past the date where it would no longer be shameful to admit that what he said back then might have been a bit of a fib. The chances of him doing it in the middle of a prestige project that only survives because people believe the state of affairs is always excellent can't even be defined using the number 0, because that would mean it had an actual discernible value.

I wouldn't bet on any kind of odds that can only be expressed using variants of NULL and NaN. :D
 
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dsmart

Banned
How could this possibly be irrelevant, patently or otherwise.

Because...pay attention... this is what the discussion is about, and which I already addressed: backers who are adept at theory-crafting dreams, can't tell the difference between 64-Bit sized scenes, 64-Bit programs, 64-Bit world positioning"

- - - Updated - - -

LMAO. It used every trick in the book… except the ones that would have made it an efficient piece of software that could run well. It was notoriously poorly performing on any hardware without being particularly better looking — and definitely not better playing — than what was already out at the time.

As for being patterned on Hollywood blockbusters, well… sure, it tried to be Top Gun but instead only managed Iron Eagle. And it was exactly as derivative and predictable as that paragraph suggests. To top it off, it delivered that wooden narrative in a way that, if anything, was even less visually interesting than what they'd done in WC2, two years earlier.

The section in the manual is very revealing as far as Chris' lack of development insight goes. The whole bit about completely misjudging the time and money required is just the top of the iceberg. What makes me laugh the most is when he describes the challenges for the project, such as the “risky assumption” that PCs would get faster and cheaper over time. And the less said about his delusions of grandeur as far as making the games industry adopt well-known techniques like Gouraud shading the better. [hehe]

Yup. And I actually just started a thread to chronicle all of these btw. All are welcome to contribute.
 
As the saying goes these days: oh, sweet summer child.

This is a man who can't offer an honest state of affairs on something that he released 23 years ago — long past the date where it would no longer be shameful to admit that what he said back then might have been a bit of a fib. The chances of him doing it in the middle of a prestige project that only survives because people believe the state of affairs is always excellent can't even be defined using the number 0, because that would mean it had an actual discernible value.

I wouldn't bet on any kind of odds that can only be expressed using variants of NULL and NaN. :D

Hah :D I'm not imagining it'll be optional if they do as badly as it's possible they could - they've managed to buy back some faith with Space Clarkson and some charts briefly but it's thin ice now.
 
Birdy88 said:
Curious, why is there only a development timetable for 2.6? and not 3.0 / SQ42 Slice?

I respect this move to show us the estimates and current feature progress of the latest patch. However why has the same not been done for at least the SQ42 demo? Something that was supposedly super close to finished, or waiting on "bits and bobs" well over a month ago?

2.6 was around the corner, we already knew that, but considering all the talk of SQ42 and 3.0, why was the same courtesy not given in respect to these? especially given the sour taste SQ42's no show left...

This developer timetable has little value if it's only going to show something that was projected 2 weeks away tops... in my mind that is just another "disclaimer tool" to keep people hyped, but then saying "subject to change., like we said"... while a valid arguement, I'm just saying this "developer timetable transparency" would have far more value on content that isn't right up and hype ready.

What about the netcode? how is that going? or subsumption? etc?

Steady with the downvotes and vile now, this is a genuine question, and far from unreasonable.

https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitize...us_why_is_there_only_a_development_timetable/

Quite a good thread on the subreddit.
 
You know what, damn it. Strike Commander just boils my blood every time, and we'll see if I can get through this without any banworthy language. Rant time!

Let's start with Chris' version of the story in full:
Strike Commander manual p46-47 said:
Recently, I watched the film Heart of Darkness, which chronicled the tremendous struggles that Francis Ford Coppola went through in crating Apocalypse Now. In many ways, the creation of Strike Commander has helped me identify with his plight.

It was two and half years ago, just after the release of Wing Commander, that I started out on what I then estimated to be a one-year project. I set out to create an industry shattering flight simulator that would encompass a revolutionary new 3-D system, a system that I planned to use for Wing Commander III and hoped would form the basis of a whole new generation of ORIGIN games. This system, which we later named RealSpace™, became the heart of Strike Commander. To make RealSpace truly revolutionary we decided to gamble on two major graphics techniques: Gouraud shading and texture mapping. Both of these techniques are used extensively on high-end military flight simulators costing millions of dollars. Their application gives rendered 3-D images a much more realistic and fluid appearance. Because of the power needed to implement such a 3-D system, nobody had previously dreamed of doing so on a PC. For us to pull off this software, we knew we had to make some risky assumptions. First, that the power-to-price ratio of PCs would continue to decline, thereby delivering affordable PCs of adequate speed to our target market. Second, and more importantly, that the same forces that had created a demand for Wing Commander — those power-hungry 386 owners — would generate a demand for games that exploited the next generation of PCs, the 486. When creating Wing Commander, there were many who doubted the game would sell because of their lack of faith in the high-end PC market. This time, however, everyone believed in the market and, as time went on, the doubts revolved around our ability to create the engine.

In the spirit of wanting it all, we set out to design a game that would have more realism than the best flight simulator, better storytelling, more fun and more accessibility than Wing Commander, and the best sound effects, music and graphics of any game ever created. Our biggest mistake was thinking that we could achieve all of this in a single year. Our biggest setback was the realization that it would take more than two. But our journey had begun and there was no turning back. Perhaps the greatest heartbreak came months after the Consumer Electronics Show in June 1991. Believing ourselves to be a few months from completion, we showed a demo of Strike in front of the press and our competitors. Months later, we were little closer to completion, but a subtle change had come over our competitors’ development plans. All of the sudden, parts of the technology we had shown at CES were showing up in their software. It wasn’t as if they had stolen our ideas — after all, the techniques we used to make RealSpace revolutionary for PCs are very well known in the high-end graphics field. The trouble was that nobody believed it could be done on the PC. With a single ill-timed demo, we had changed that belief and inadvertently given our competitors a heads-up on where we wanted to take the industry a full year and a half before we arrived there. During these revelations it was difficult to resist the temptation to push Strike out early and prevent our competitors from stealing any more of our thunder. But to stop short of our vision would have been unacceptable. We were in the middle of our journey and were determined to complete it, regardless of what lay ahead. And what lay ahead was the hardest part: long hours, short tempers and huge expectations.

In hindsight, knowing what a truly Herculean task Strike Commander turned into, the heartache and disappointment it created when its release date was constantly pushed back, and the amount of time from our personal lives that it consumed, we probably should have designed it differently. We wouldn’t have tried to do quite as much or shot quite as high. In our arrogance we had set out to create something that was not only better than everything else, it was several orders of magnitude bettre. And it was several orders of magnitude more expensive as well — in fact, the most expensive game ORIGIN has ever developed. Like Francis Ford Coppola and his film crew on Apocalypse Now, we knew we were in way over our heads, but we also knew there was no turning back.

And now, a little humbler, we’ve reached the end of our long and arduous journey. We look at Strike Commander and see a game that every member of the team can say, “Yes, it was two years of hell, but at the end of it we’ve created something that is very special and I’m proud of it.” I have never seen such selfless dedication from such talented individuals as the team that created it. Strike Commander is the game it is because of them. Each time I think about the dark circles under my eyes, the unshaven beards, the late night pizzas and the neglected spouses and girlfriends, I wonder what it is that makes us do this. One reason might be that the entire Strike Commander team , which has grown to as many as twenty people, are all avid computer game players. We buy and play our competitors’ games, looking forward to the latest developments in our field. If we weren’t writing games as a profession, we would be hating our day jobs and writing them at night. I hope this makes us as demanding and discriminating as anyone that plays our games. Although it sounds clichéd, for us it is much more than a job. I can think of no greater pride it would bring a team member than to have someone approach him at a computer store and tell him that Strike Commander was the best game they’ve ever played.

We hope you’ll agree.

This little nugget came out in 1993, and as we can see, true to form, Chris wants to paint it as revolutionary, industry-changing, unprecedented, and best ever. But, again, it came out in 1993. I harp on the year because it is a rather special year in computer gaming. It was indeed a seminal year for games, and especially for the PC gaming scene, but none of it had to do with Chris — hell, it didn't have anything to do with the actual production-value powerhouse that was Origin Systems.

What came out in 1993?
Doom. The game that, while it didn't invent the 3D first-person shooter genre, defined it, with audiovisual quality that was through the roof, to say nothing of the networked realtime multiplayer fighting that is a multi-billion (or is it trillion by now?) dollar industry today.
Myst. One of the most popular computer games ever, irrespective of genre or format. Along with 7th Guest, also released in 1993, it was the killer app that sold the CD ROM as a format and a peripheral, and much like Doom did for the FPS, defined the concept of multimedia gaming.
X-Wing. Take the space shooter concept that had been popular for a couple of years, make it actual 3D, throw a huge IP behind it, and focus on gameplay above all else. Again, it did not invent the genre, but it absolutely defined and nailed what works and what does not.
Virtua Fighter. Take the well-established and still popular fighting genre — Mortal Kombat II came out in 1993 as well and the Street Fighter series was in-between games — and make it 3D, thus setting the stage for where they will all go in a few years.

While they weren't seminal in and of themselves, a number of other games came out that pushed their genres ahead and set the stage for the future:
Daytona USA and Ridge Racer for the kind of 3D arcade racers that would be the new standard from there on.
Day of the Tentacle, Gabriel Knight, and Sam and Max probably mark the peak of the adventure gaming genre, pushing it into the realm of CD-based multimedia.
Masters of Orion and Syndicate. I mention them because some people will hurt me if I don't.
And that's not even mentioning such absolute classics as A Link to the Past, Star Fox, Super Mario All Stars, Aladdin, Sonic CD, Eye of the Beholder III, or Alone in the Dark II — games that, in spite of being spectacular or critical components in what would be genre-defining games a few years down the road, still paled in importance in comparison to the actual revolution that was going on at the same time.

As for Origin, they weren't exactly sleeping, but they were focusing on add-ons, spin-offs, and tried and trusted product series: Ultima VII-2, Privateer, and Ultima Underworld II. None of them offered anything new.

Hardware-wise, we had a generation shift with the Sega Mega CD, Atari Jaguar, 3DO, Amiga CD32, and — perhaps most interestingly — the Sega Model 2 system. It is interesting because of one particular feature: its hardware-accelerated texturing and shading, supporting among other things… Gouraud shading of polygonal models. No matter how much Chris wants to strut his stuff over the '91 CES demo, no, Sega did not look at what some niche-genre dev on PC did and invented custom hardware to do the same thing in the year and a half between the expo and the system release. This was a parallel process that was happing industry-wide, all at the same time because the time was right.

Oh, and a tiny little chip manufacturer that was probably not worth mentioning released something called the “Pentium”? And across town in Santa Clara, a bunch of upstarts got together to form a company called nVidia…


So yeah, 1993 was an insane year as far as pushing the games industry forward. For all his bluster, Chris Roberts was not relevant to that development. He was doing his own thing, breaking budgets and being second (or third) on the ball like always, way out in the periphery. This would also be the only sensible explanation for the downright obscurantist idea that PC hardware might not continue on the trajectory set by the 386 (from 1985) and 486 (released in 1989).
 
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You know what, damn it. Strike Commander just boils my blood every time, and we'll see if I can get through this without any banworthy language. Rant time!

I especially like the bit:

All of the sudden, parts of the technology we had shown at CES were showing up in their software. It wasn’t as if they had stolen our ideas — after all, the techniques we used to make RealSpace revolutionary for PCs are very well known in the high-end graphics field.

Classic Roberts, trying to make out that all those other, lesser developers copied his "revolutionary" work, rather than using the same techniques all along, and yet they still beat him to market, despite only starting after seeing his game, because Strike Commander was massively delayed due to how revolutionary it was, even though other developers were doing the same revolutionary things in less time.

I'm just surprised he admitted that they were "very well known" techniques and didn't claim to have invented them all himself.
 

I think the answer to that question is relatively simple. After CitizenCon and the Anniversary nonsense, more and more backers have demanded to see the progress on 2.6. In response, CIG have published their estimated timelines in order to keep money coming in.

Out of interest, are there any "Consumer Rights" type TV programmes on one of the major networks in the United States? (In the UK we have the likes of Watchdog, and for really serious stuff, Panorama - both on the BBC). I don't have a handle on the journalistic culture in the US on such things, but would such a programme be interested in investigating CIG and Star Citizen..... Just pondering.... If it were all UK based, with so much money involved, I suspect it may be appealing to such a programme.........
 
Thanks for the response - I guess when creating a game engine you have to decide on your numeric data type and use that throughout, not just for positioning. I also guess that 32bit floating point is good enough for the vast majority of applications - hence why it's used.

Isn't the maximum map size an effect from the 32-bit float meaning that precision gets lower and lower as you go futher out to the edges of the map? Hence the size of the box is the mapsize you can define with acceptable positional precision?
 
Btw, I am quite lost, isnt't that timetable already moved one week? What's 2.6 status at this point?

I'm not sure, but right now the official timeline for Evocati release is 28th-30th of November. I can't be bothered looking for that comparison image, but the archived version of status website (https://web.archive.org/web/20161118232938/https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report) says it was originally supposed to be available for avocados between 18th and 25th.
 
Isn't the maximum map size an effect from the 32-bit float meaning that precision gets lower and lower as you go futher out to the edges of the map? Hence the size of the box is the mapsize you can define with acceptable positional precision?

As I understand the floating point data type, that would make sense. It's a case of scale vs precision (or mantissa and exponent). I'm not an expert on game engine stuff though, and it seems there are further complications/restrictions/benefits which are graphics hardware based - which is beyond my current knowledge. I'm a database guy, I understand data and how to model it. To me, it's all 1's and 0's :D
 
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