dom eht
Banned
open isnt pvp, you dont have to pvp in open, just highwake , *i said in a very condescending tone because its common sense*
To Fly in Open or Not - Is Ganking/Griefing Really That Bad?
- Thread starter Exigeous
- Start date
open isnt pvp, you dont have to pvp in open, just highwake , *i said in a very condescending tone because its common sense*
Not all piracy, just player on player piracy.
Player piracy really ticks me the wrong way. Any way a player can steal or rob in-game progression from another player really irks me, to the same extent being mugged in the real world does, and far more than a mere griefer attack ever could, even if the "pirate" is as respectful as the role allows and roleplays the whole thing. Any game where someone ever managed to actually steal anything from my character is a game I left to never return, no exceptions up to now, and I doubt I will ever make any exception. I don't care if the game rules allow it, I will always find it odious, and I will always do any and everything I can to prevent it from happening to me, even cheating if needed; after all, if it were to ever happen to me I would permanently leave the game anyway, so I actually risk nothing if I do even a bannable offense in order to avoid piracy interaction.
If the entire player base agreed that combat logging was the douchiest thing in ED, it wouldn't be done to the scale it is.
The devil is in the details. Combat logging to avoid losing when the fight was consensual, or when the player that started the fight is the one logging out, is indeed universally considered bad sporting, and not just in ED; I've seen people hold that opinion in many games.
Combat logging to avoid griefing, actual or perceived, though, is a far grayer area. Particularly, as I said before, I consider combat logging to avoid unwanted PvP to be fine, commendable even, as long as there isn't an easy, official way to opt out of PvP without any downsides (which is why I would stop supporting combat logging if an Open PvE mode was added; Mobius has too many disadvantages compared with a proper PvE mode for me to accept it as a reasonable way to opt out of PvP, but a proper PvE mode would be just fine).
And that distinction doesn't even take into account that the weight different players place on combat logging can be quite different. Particularly I consider even combat logging to avoid losing a fight the logger started to be a minor offense at most, less irksome than griefing, or even than someone forcing another player into a fair PvP fight.
Only if there is an advantage for playing in Open, in which case I will use everything I learned about networking ever since I helped bring Internet to my college's dorm back in the 90s to play in Open while making sure PvP will never happen to me.
I would likely just degrade ED's connection enough for it to never connect me to anyone else even when choosing Open, though; it's very unlikely the PvP community would manage to irritate me to the point I started to consider looking for PvP fights to then combat log an appropriate reaction.
More like I will never take part in anything related to player piracy, neither as attacker nor as victim, and I will always lobby for players to have a way to easily opt out of that kind of interaction. If I'm ever forced to take part in that kind of engagement, I'll leave the game and delete my account instead.
If other players actually want to engage in that — as in, the target actually likes that piracy has a chance of happening — then I have no issue with it happening to those players; consent can change some of the most heinous acts into socially acceptable behavior. But yeah, even then I do want it to only happen to targets that actually like facing the danger of player piracy.
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Sole Hunter
Banned
if you pay attention to your radar and aren't watching netflix and sitting for 20 minutes on the sun, you should be safe. You can drop and high wake right away and avoid most if not all ganks. If you are not careful or don't pay attention you will die.
It's really that simple, ganking really isn't that bad. The majority of players I killed or kill are not paying attention.
It's really that simple, ganking really isn't that bad. The majority of players I killed or kill are not paying attention.
Let me give my numbers: I have 12 insurance claims, of those, 7 or 8 are due to gankers/griefers. All of those occurred in my first 50 hours of game time. All of the ships that destroyed mine were dedicated PvP ships, I got no communication, and I had pretty much no chance. For the record, I was in a cobra mk III, adder, or sidey.
These days, I wouldn't fare much better. I have PvE combat setups on the ships that I do have armed. The only ship that I risk in open is my Cobra mk III because it is my fuel rat setup. It runs fast, cold, and is cheap to replace.
Also, griefing/ganking isn't about the amount of time spent dying or anything like that. The numbers don't really matter. It's the frustration of being almost powerless against another player who feels like being a d*ck. Those negative experiences stick out and can be clearly remembered for a long time after the fact. The math is irrelevant, what matters are the perceptions that linger as a result of these encounters.
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tell that to the T9 and T7 guys who encounter over engineered FDLs that are explicitly set up for combat.
These days, I wouldn't fare much better. I have PvE combat setups on the ships that I do have armed. The only ship that I risk in open is my Cobra mk III because it is my fuel rat setup. It runs fast, cold, and is cheap to replace.
Also, griefing/ganking isn't about the amount of time spent dying or anything like that. The numbers don't really matter. It's the frustration of being almost powerless against another player who feels like being a d*ck. Those negative experiences stick out and can be clearly remembered for a long time after the fact. The math is irrelevant, what matters are the perceptions that linger as a result of these encounters.
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tell that to the T9 and T7 guys who encounter over engineered FDLs that are explicitly set up for combat.
First: quit the ad hominem attacks, renders your argument invalid. Especially that half of your post is spent on straw man attacks.
Second, dark walker isn't pro griefing, just that in his opinion, player on player piracy is worse than griefing. I don't agree, as my 2 encounters with player pirates were infinitely better than my couple dozen encounters with player griefers/gankers
And again you compare a core game play element, one that many play and that Frontier advertises to a criminal felony offense, are you kidding me? You really think me taking a fake, virtual asset in a game that means nothing is comparable to assaulting someone and stealing their possessions or money? Obviously you don't understand how piracy works in Elite, there is no way I can steal "in-game progression" from anyone in Elite. I can't affect your rank, your influence, your alliances with various factions, etc. At worst I can blow you up causing you to spend fake in-game credits to buy a fake in-game object like a ship.
First as to the scale of clogging it's actually a minor problem. Of the 50+ players I've interdicted/pirated only about 4-5 have clogged on me. The vast majority of the player base knows this is cheating. Fortunately unlike you 99% of players aren't cheaters. They know they have to follow the rules just like everyone else.
I'll never understand how people think they're somehow special and that the rules don't apply to them. Exactly who do you think you are that the rules don't apply to you or that you can selectively choose to follow the rules you like and blatantly violate those you don't. Cheating is one of the worst things you can do in both games and life, how can you not understand that? What do you think would happen to you if you cheated on your taxes? Decided you didn't want to pay for your meal at a restaurant because you just don't want to. I tell you what, on your way home tomorrow drive 20 mph over the speed limit. When you get pulled over tell the cop "I'm sorry officer, I know I was speeding but I don't like speed limits so I've decided I don't have to follow them". I know it'll take some time to get bonded out of jail but when you do let us know how that goes for you. I'm just glad that there are virtually no players like you. If there were Elite would have been completely ruined by now.
Nope, it isn't gray at all. It's absolutely black and white. Combat logging is exploiting the game and exploiting the game is not allowed, period. The reason or motivation for breaking a rule doesn't change the rule in any way. "I'm sorry officer, I know I'm speeding but I'm really hungry and want to get home to eat. Since I'm just hungry speed limits shouldn't apply to me". Nope, sorry, the rules of society and games/etc that you choose to play are applied to you just like they are to everyone else. I promise you that you aren't special in any way, you have to follow the rules just like the rest of us. Saying it's commendable to cheat when you don't like a certainly feature or rule is also beyond me, especially when there are very easy ways to ensure you won't have to deal with unwanted PvP, it's called solo.
QUOTE=DarkWalker;4851588] ...I will always lobby for players to have a way to easily opt out of that kind of interaction. If I'm ever forced to take part in that kind of engagement, I'll leave the game and delete my account instead.[/QUOTE]
You realize there already is an easy way to opt out of a piracy or any PvP interaction you come across - the self destruct button on your functions tab. I've had someone use that before, I interdicted someone and just as I sent my "stop and I won't shoot" message he exploded right in front of me. I thought it was rather silly as I was telling him I wouldn't shoot but if he'd rather blow himself up than give me some cargo that's absolutely his choice.
It's amazing to me how anyone can feel that the rules only selectively apply to them. Hopefully as you grow up you'll learn that this isn't the way the world works. The rules of life apply to us all, period. The rules of a game you've decided to play also fully apply to you. These are absolutely black and white issues, period. There is NO gray here at all. While your free to form your own opinions and if you disagree with a rule you are absolutely free to voice that disagreement and do what you can to get that rule changed. But while that rule exists you don't get to chose to follow it or not.
At this point I'm done trying to explain this to you, you're either incapable of understanding this or troll is just trolling, I'm not sure which. I'm guessing that because you don't like the facts I've laid out here you'll just report my post again, please feel free. I have no need or desire to spend any more time trying to explain this to you, we both know you'll never fly in open and if you do you'd be deleting your account soon after (then again I wouldn't expect an admitted cheater would be true to their word). Either way there's virtually no chance I'd come across you in game. Oh and I'll tell you what - I'll even offer to buy you out. Post evidence that you've deleted your account never to play Elite again and I'll happily send you $60 to do so. Something tells me I'll be keeping my $60.
First if you're a FuelRat I salute you sir and humbly offer my services to help you in any way I can. The FuelRats are one of, if not the most commendable group in Elite. You guys are absolutely selfless and perform and wonderful and needed service for Elite players. I used the Rats once early on when I was clueless and, as much as I hate to admit it, a week ago as I was chatting with a friend while outfitting and as such I forgot to put on a scoop. In both cases the Rats that saved me were absolutely great about it, the first spent time teaching me about fuel and the second laughed with me as I explained I'm an advanced player or just made a stupid mistake.
As for the numbers being irrelevant you are essentially 100% correct. It really is the experience or perception of the experience that counts. My main reason for posting my numbers was to look at the issue from a more factual perspective. Everyone makes their own opinions and perspectives on things, I just wanted to illustrate to those who don't or have never played in open that the financial/time impact to the game isn't that sever.
Again if you'd ever like someone to wing up with you to be an escort I hope you'll hit me up!!
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So pointing out that a player is blatantly cheating and calling them out for that is an attack? And the facts of that make an argument invalid? Sorry, I'm not understanding that logic. "Officer, that horrible person over there just (insert crime here)!" - "I'm sorry citizen, as you called him 'horrible' I'm not going to enforce the law, you should be nicer to even those who break the law". I definitely don't understand that. If you want to defend someone who is stating he'd break any rule he doesn't like and cheat when he feels like it that absolutely your right but saying that because someone calls that out it renders their argument invalid, well that I don't understand.
Imho griefing does not exist in game, it's a construct of unhappy players who don't like the fact they have been +Expletive Deleted+ up the +Expletive Deleted+ in open play.
Open play was DESIGNED to be dangerous. If players don't like it don't play in open.
Choice my friends. Choice.
Open play was DESIGNED to be dangerous. If players don't like it don't play in open.
Choice my friends. Choice.
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This is very much what i also wrote already. My experience in Open changed a lot depending on the ship i used. In all cases when i was interedicted and attacked (and -nobody- ever said or rather wrote a single word when interdicting me in Open) i was in a transport ship, so obviously not in a state to really fight back.
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When flying around in a combat ship, i was never interdicted and attacked, but people rather avoided me. Neither situation is desireable for me.
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In contrast Möbius i am able to meet people and they actually talk in Möbius. It's the best of both worlds, despite a number of drawbacks. I am thankful that one player goes the distance and provides this urgently needed service to the whole playerbase, while FD is staring and the sky and refuses to act upon it.
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And yes, i dare to say, would there be only Open or Closed and no Möbius, i wouldn't play this game any more since months. (So yes, the fact that i bought several weapon colors, ship kits and ship skins can directly be credited to Möbius, who even paye money to allow me this playstyle. I think Frontier should pay him for what he does... )
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I very much agree on all i quoted here.
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Möbius is awesome, but it is limited in several aspects. Not only does it depend on one person owning the accounts and caring for them, it also is hidden behind a "find me" accessibility problem. I am convinced that the "now today, like every day the last month, i go out and shoot some noobs" people have cost the game a number of players and thus paying customers already. (Yes, i know those people are few, but i -did- experience them and they influence the complete community negatively. )
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Also Möbius by now due to technical limitations is not on but several player groups. Yes, this meant that FD sold some more accounts, great win. But it also means that the community artificially gets split up. Which is not that much of a win, so say it mildly.
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Combat loggers trigger tragic flashbacks and my PTSD. Please help.
Sad.
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Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Please refrain from discussing other participants in the thread.
Could you like think of my feelings like man? I come from North Korea and you censoring my opinions is like you know Kim Jung Un type of stuff and it's making me experience my time in the re-education camp all over again.
#SuperiorKoreanLivesMatter
10 minutes and counting. Superior Leader Kim Jung Un wouldn't tolerate this sloppines.
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And you miss the point.
Elite is supposed to be dangerous FOR ALL INVOLVED.
9 times out of 10 there is no danger, present or future for an aggressor due to not being any crime and punishment.
Sure, in Anarchy systems people have themselves to blame but anyone, ANYONE shooting random people in any major faction jurisdiction or a place where there is supposed to be security should be a wanted man in a large area.
Why?
Simple, CMDR's are not above the law AND the pilot federation frowns upon CMDR's killing CMDR's.
Add to the fact WHY a system WITH a functional government would allow mass murderers to walk around and allow them to dock on stations?
verminstar
Banned
See this hasnt worked out which is why its incredibly short sighted. Fer the longest time, the most arrogant players have simply stated the git gud or go solo line. Couple months later they all come onto the forums crying about how solo is killing open...even though they told everyone to go solo in the first place.
Not the sharpest knife in the block but the hilarity doesnt end there, oh no...in terms of pure undiluted stupidity, the git gud squad then spends months insulting solo players with every manner of factually incorrect assumptions and innuendoes one can think off...then sit back and cry about how empty open is and how dumb FD were to ever allow this game to have 3 modes which they never ever supported...after spending the previous months telling two thirds of the playerbase to go play in it.
Now, the call is fer financial buffs to open in an attempt at bribing solo players back to open, and aspects of the bgs to be pvp influenced only. What next one has to wonder? Some these guys have as many brain cells as I have bullets fer my guns...and I explore with no guns fitted...go figure. Im actually nervous about being in close proximity to them incase that level of ingrained stupidity is infectious.
And thats why I genuinely feel sorry fer the genuine role playing pvprs who do play nice...not many of them left...a dying breed. Its not them Im against...its all the others who have destroyed your playground in the name of cheap thrills.
Fortunately, no-one else does.
I'm not even sure i can find the words to respond to such an outrageous statement.
I do have to wonder, if you were mugged in real life, would you say to the mugger "Well, at least you aren't a pirate in a video game!"
As I said in my first attempt at responding to this; this completely destroys the idea that player-killing/griefing triggered combat logging behaviors. There are plenty of cheating players who will do it regardless of rp or legitimate piracy/combat reasons.
It's a big galaxy. If you only hang around various centres that have high player populations then yes the chances of player PvP are very high. If you go just two systems away or more it is like playing solo. I pretty much always play open because if you want PvP you know where to go, if you just want to do missions etc. you can do that too without switching modes. I only go to solo for CGs if I want to get to the top of the leader board for the higher rewards.
I got ganked once this year, like 2 weeks ago. Someone in an FdL with a Clipper friend thought they'd interdict my Imperial Eagle. As if they were going to catch me.
The reality of ED is you will only see people in 8 locations, generally:
1.) Starting systems. Evarate. LHS 3447. Etc.
2.) PowerPlay capital systems. Kamadhenu, Lembava, Cubeo, Gateway, etc.
3.) Elite rank-Only space. Founder's World system.
4.) Systems that low-level Engineers are based in. Wyrd, Decait, Wolf 357 mostly.
5.) Systems where a Community Goal is taking place.
6.) Systems where new artifacts have been found.
7.) Systems/stations where the hot new financial quasi exploit or military rank grind mission spam can be taken advantage of. 17 Draconis, Ceos, Sothis, Robigo.
8.) The new bubble.
That might look like a lot of places, but really we're talking about a handful of systems out of a bubble with thousands of occupied systems to choose from. If you pick a system that you like and set up your tent there, you are likely to only see other players if you want to (by going to one of the 8 above system types).
The reality of ED is you will only see people in 8 locations, generally:
1.) Starting systems. Evarate. LHS 3447. Etc.
2.) PowerPlay capital systems. Kamadhenu, Lembava, Cubeo, Gateway, etc.
3.) Elite rank-Only space. Founder's World system.
4.) Systems that low-level Engineers are based in. Wyrd, Decait, Wolf 357 mostly.
5.) Systems where a Community Goal is taking place.
6.) Systems where new artifacts have been found.
7.) Systems/stations where the hot new financial quasi exploit or military rank grind mission spam can be taken advantage of. 17 Draconis, Ceos, Sothis, Robigo.
8.) The new bubble.
That might look like a lot of places, but really we're talking about a handful of systems out of a bubble with thousands of occupied systems to choose from. If you pick a system that you like and set up your tent there, you are likely to only see other players if you want to (by going to one of the 8 above system types).