To Fly in Open or Not - Is Ganking/Griefing Really That Bad?

[Leper Messiah]

All this open v solo garbage.
You know I think the only people who really have a problem are those who cant kill the CMDRs who are influencing the systems they are based in. Boo Hoo.
As far as I'm concerned we as players are given a choice and having choice is good. Play what ever way you want.
If you play in open you basically consent to meeting unsavoury types.
Why do people always try to control the actions of others ?

see here is where I'm confused with the PvP people. The emboldened bit is said time and time again in their defense, they see it as their "right" almost in open. Yet that very statement perfectly sums up the attitude of many a PVPer IMO. Through (usually) overwhelming force they seek to control the actions of others (in lesser ships). Now I play devils advocate in these sort of threads as I'm perfectly happy in solo staying away from the great unwashed masses ( ). But I realise there's a large amount of players who want social interactions with other players and off the cuff co-op style gameplay (pre-planned co-op is clearly an option) yet are unwilling to risk the cost of (admittedly) rare ganking. I ask why should others seek to control their actions? But then theis all leads back to an official open PVE mode with gank protection built in, to alleviate the pressure on people like Mobius (which sounds awful if I'm honest).




The reasons for the "rare" ganking are obvious to me though and it would be interesting if someone could do an experiment (well it needs 2, someone low ranked and someone high ranked).

Go to a open "hotspot" (CG etc)
use a well equipped combat ship and see how many times you get ganked
use a low specced sidey and see how many times you get ganked

We could then have a clearer idea if the gank squads avoid high ranked player in well equipped ships and go for the weaker commander in low specced ships.

 

[Spacemarkl]

Hope you have some dirty drives on that. With them she's a wonderful craft, she is rigged fore-and-aft, and oh, how the wild space winds drove her. She has 8 internals and can withstand several blasts, and we called her the Irish Rover...

Erm... sorry...

Actually I have clean drives... but I want to try dirties one day. I'm slowly engineering it and I am more happy with the ship after each improvement.

 

[Cupcake]

By definition, griefing is not related to not respecting stated/unstated rules, an action is qualified as grief for causal and moral reason: having fun by deliberatly ruining the fun of other players. Whatever your action, if this definition is the reason behind it, then it qualifies as griefing, no matter if you have legible right to act so.
So anytime a player think "I'll make some noobs rage, for the lulz", he is griefing by the book.
The noob playing in open is unrelated to the definition, unless the said griefer is not actually having fun but is genuinly triggered by noobs entering open, and that would be a very interesting case to study from a psychological pov.

Also, griefing is always bad from a moral standpoint, "bad griefing" is pleonasm, now unless we go to debate about E.Kant theories about it, you may argue that moral is a subjective/cultural quantity, but I don't know any real moral culture putting this behavior in the "good" side of the balance, ha wait, there is maybe some: some gaming forum subset often show twisted moral biases...

I'm not sure where you get your definitions, I am a long time gamer and not privvy to the latest coffee-time psycho babble. The game is working as intended by FD, like it or not. I really cant see why you guys are so butthurt over a few idiots, you have the tools there to combat this, why dont you use them? You go on about twisted morals and bias, people in glass houses my friend.

 

[Maelkhor]

I'm not sure where you get your definitions, I am a long time gamer and not privvy to the latest coffee-time psycho babble. The game is working as intended by FD, like it or not. I really cant see why you guys are so butthurt over a few idiots, you have the tools there to combat this, why dont you use them? You go on about twisted morals and bias, people in glass houses my friend.

Easy reply would be wikipedia/wiktionary but there is a trend to deny them as valid source, so I'll just use this one :
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/griefer

 

[The Wallet Inspector]

Summary for those that don't want to read the analysis below let me sum it up. With my experience, which from talking with many commanders seems somewhat average (play time, earnings, etc) here are the main 2 stats

0.05% of total play time I was being griefed or killed
4.75% of my total assets was spent on rebuys

----------------------------

I've been having some interesting conversations around piracy, specifically around gankers or griefers. I've had many pilots say they don't fly in open as they don't want to get killed or griefed, etc. This made me wonder how bad can it really be? I've gotten killed 5 times by gankers and I didn't care at all, but why? I don't have that much currency and haven't played the game all that long. So what is it that makes people play in solo/private? Being clear I strongly believe that everyone has the right to play how they want, in no way am I passing judgement or saying someone should play my or another other way. Who the hell would I be to dictate that??

So I did some math based on my play time and assets. I have no idea if I'm near average or not so if I'm majorly missing the mark let me know.

• I've played 400 hours
• I've been killed by commanders 5 times
• Each gank it takes 2.5 minutes for me to die
• Average rebuy cost is $4M
• I have $250M in the bank, assets of $450M and $1B spent on outfitting

NOTE: Let's rule out high risk cases like having a huge amount of trade data when returning to the bubble. I agree the risk is too high and pilots should go into solo/private for these rare times.

Okay, now let's look at some stats around the above numbers

• 12.5 minutes of death
• 24,000 minutes of play time
• 0.05% of my total play time I was getting killed and dying
• Those 5 deaths cost me $20M total
• That's 2% of the total I've spent on outfitting
• At the time of death it's 4.75% of my total assets

I realize these numbers might be overly simplistic and I may be way off the mark in terms of average play time and assets. If I am please post your numbers and do your own math. IMHO I'd gladly have 1.6% of my time be getting killed as the excitement and risk it adds FAR outweigh any negatives to me.

Finally know I have no agenda here other than sharing what I enjoy with others. I think open is awesome, there's very little in the game currently that makes me play solo/private. Doing skimmer missions where another commander will be there doing the same, sure, solo. Sightseeing with friends who insist on private, great. Any kind of non-wing play and I'm in open, every time.

Very curious to hear from the hardcore solo/private players as to why they don't fly open. Again being 100% clear I'm not judging anyone nor saying that my way is the "right" way. There is NO right way to play Elite and thank god for me no wrong (as I'd surely be getting it wrong!!)

~X


UPDATE: It was pointed out to me that I had a typo in my math which I've now corrected. I incorrectly stated that I had spent 125 minutes "dying" where that should have been 12.5 With that change the percentage of time played I was dying isn't 1.6% that I originally posted but rather 0.05%

Sounds like someone got good. +1 rep

 

[Exigeous]

First I've been meaning to compliment you on your avatar, damn I love the Holy Grail. One of my all time favorite comedies, right up there with Airplane and the Naked Gun in my book. The scene from the avatar is probably my second favorite after the rabbit/holy hand grenade. "He's got a mean streak a mile wide!" - love it.

....lot of stuff that makes a lot of sense, a few things that you won't understand.....

Rather than continue our point-by-point back and forth, which I've enjoyed more than been annoyed, I'll just say that there are many things that I completely agree with and less than that that I don't. I think there really is only one big'ish thing we don't agree on, I don't think there's anything huge that FD needs to change here. What I mean is I think there are much bigger issues in the game than how gankers are handled. Absolutely it's an issue but from my experience it's not nearly as bad as others make it out to be or as big as other issues. I definitely wish there were more serious consequences for ganking/murder but if the system stays exactly as it is now for the life of the game I'd be okay with that. With how infrequently I've had negative encounters there are things I'd much rather FD spend their time on, Engineer/commodity storage for example. Unfortunately the current system rewards those who are willing to and/or have time to grind for hours and hours. It's funny, my thoughts on grinding are very similar to yours on PvP ganking. I HATE grinding and as such I only very *very* rarely do so as Engineering just doesn't change the game enough to make it worth it to me. I ground out Federation rank so I could get a Sol pass as I really wanted to check it out. I ground out Imperial rank so I could get the Clipper (and promptly realized I don't like it). Fortunately the 17 Draconis civil war earned me 3 Federation ranks in about 3 hours of stacking/killing skimmers. I'm now rather close to getting the Gun Ship which I want since it can carry a fighter (I like sightseeing and being able to bring a SRV and Fighter for running around on planets).

While I've had a few encounters where I'd wished my ship was Engineered that's only been related to a couple of gankers and my experience with a wing of highly engineered FDLs that kicked my in a big way. Eng makes no difference when it comes to NPCs and as I rarely get involved with another commander's engineered ship I have little reason to deal with the crap around commodities for something I don't really need anyway. As I've said I really enjoy PvP gentleman piracy as for that a stock ship is perfectly fine. The ships I target don't require that I have a fully engineered ship so why bother? Sure I could go after Anacondas or Vettes if I had a grade 5 engineered FDL but there are plenty of lesser ships I can pirate as it is. I am strongly considering pledging to Duval so I can get the prismatic shields as that would keep me in a fight with NPCs longer when I do pirate someone.

When you say the lost subtitles of text make conversations like this hard you absolutely speak the truth. I've fallen victim to it as I try to do my best to give others the benefit of the doubt when it comes to tone in messages. It's always been amazing to me what putting a keyboard/screen between two people can create, sorta like the way we act when we're behind the wheel of our cars. The @sshat that cuts you off in traffic is likely a good person who would never do that IRL. Have you ever seen someone cut in line in front of 10 people at the post office? Of course not. Have you ever had someone talk to you in person in the way people write online? Again of course not.

I'll also say I'm glad that we're coming back to a middle ground here as things were getting silly. I'm glad with both realize that we're both right and wrong about this and that's okay. While I still don't understand the mindset of "absolutely no ganking" you have every right to feel and play that way. Hell maybe in the future I'll get jaded and will give up on Open as well. It's too bad there isn't an "honorable open" group where things like gentleman piracy was acceptable but ganking not. If I could pirate in Mobius I'd absolutely play there but I understand why they don't allow that. I truly role play honorable pirate but realize that others use that as a thin veil to just kill players. If you/they stop for me they'd quickly learn I really do have no desires to shoot and kill. I just want you to stop and hopefully chat with me, and if you have cargo to "share" some with me. In these encounters it's like my style of dog training. If a dog displays something like aggression I can NOT let the dog win. I must work with the situation until the dog submits and understands that I'm going to win. Players that run from me in a piracy interdiction are the same, if I just let them go with no consequences I'm a crappy pirate, right? I can't say "stop, or I'll say stop again". I have to back up my demands/role-play with actions and that action is to shoot. I can't have it be "this interdicted me twice but it was easy as I just ran and he was unwilling to shoot". I need it to be "this interdicted me twice and when I kept running he unloaded on me". That way next time maybe they'll be more likely to listen to and follow my commands. I absolutely understand why they would run as they've either been ganked or read threads like this before. "I know he says if I stop he's just scan but I just know that (#*$&%$) is just gonna kill me if I do.

TL;DR

We're on the same page, glad you do fly in Mobius as do I from time to time, perhaps we'll run into each other there. If you see a douchy FDL pilot lining up behind you and he says "stop and I won't' shoot" give him the benefit of the doubt. If he does shoot first run and/or shoot back with all your might. Friend me and I'll come a runnin' to give you a hand.

~X

 

[DarkWalker]

PLEASE DON'T EVER PLAY IN OPEN. While it's somewhat commendable that you'd admit this if you need to cheat and exploit the game by doing one of the few things Frontier has said is a banable offense (along with vulgar language, etc) then I hope you continue to enjoy solo. Clearly multiplayer games just aren't for you.

Nah, I'm very much into multiplayer games. I love both PvE-only multiplayer games and PvP-only multiplayer games.

What I can't stand is mixing the two. Which is why I keep asking for an Open PvE mode; it's the only way I would be able to enjoy playing ED in multiplayer.

And, sincerely, if Open even has any advantage over Solo/Private Group — even if it is, like, an 1% increase in rewards — I will likely be playing in Open while using combat logging (or something equivalent) whenever a player in a combat-ready ship as much as looked sideways at me. More for showing how adding rewards to Open would be a bad idea all around than out of any desire to get the reward.

While it's in no way my objective to kill a player while pirating if the above rules existed I'd obviously never shoot to kill. We would need some mechanism that would allow for piracy, just opening fire wouldn't start the above chain of events, it would basically work like it does now. That way I can use hatch breakers to get your booty and only shoot to threaten you. While I could still kill you I'd absolutely think twice, hell thrice about it.

Can we agree on all that???

Just so you know, I was one of the players who, back in Alpha, insistently lobbied Frontier to add a self-destruction option to the game for the explicitly stated purpose of allowing piracy victims to prevent pirates from getting anything even after the pirate "won" the encounter.<Content removed>

 

[Exigeous]

...playing in Open while using combat logging (or something equivalent) whenever a player in a combat-ready ship as much as looked sideways at me.

...I consider in-game player-on-player piracy to be no better than real world mugging, and view it as actually far worse than even outright griefing.

So let me make sure I understand you correctly. You would blatantly exploit the game, an exploit that Frontier has said is a banable offense? You then claim that piracy, a 100% valid and advertised role playing method, is worse than griefing? Let me quote the Elite Dangerous site, "Meet the galaxy’s needs with trade, piracy or smuggling."

You say you'd do what virtually the entire player base agrees is the douchiest thing you can do in Elite. You then go on to say that griefing, again something virtually the entire player base agrees is another extremely move, is more valid than an advertised play style?

I'm always surprised when I hear players say things like this. I take back what I said before, please do play in open and please come find me so I can get a video of you combat logging. While Frontier admitted to not investigating these a short while back it's very likely that won't be the case going forward.

 

[Maelkhor]

Multiple very heated recent threads proved that the player base is actually pretty divided about combat logging, and that there is no consensus, I wouldn't dare to give any asspull ratio but nowaday , the number of people here actually "understanding" up to litteraly "supporting" clogging despise it being officially stated as an exploit by ED is substantially large. Which imo is a shame, and a serious symptom something is wrong deeper.

My personnal interpretation would be that these people are actively not acknowleding at all FD current direction relative to pvp/open base gameplay mechanism. I myself feel neutral at best, wheras i'm a litteral anticheat psycho in other multiplayer pvp game...

I just find it hard to blame a clean pve player clogging when interdicted by a fully engineered fdl. I also agree that such a player should be in solo/group. But ina any case , it shows something fundamental in the game is broken

-- update--

To make sure it is clear, i'm not talking about piracy, at all.

 

[Glock_N_Load]

Guess it's no surprise which way this thread is going. To put it simple - Why do car lots have cars of different make, models, colors, options, new and used?

 

[NeilF]

I consider in-game player-on-player piracy to be no better than real world mugging, and view it as actually far worse than even outright griefing.

What the total huh? This is so totally alien to my concept of what ED could and should be I'm totalled confused!!!??

I'm utterly against the pointless destruction of a CMDR by another CMDR. And in truth I think it even needs to be so heavily penalised it's nigh on stupid to ever do it (even during piracy). But to suggest piracy (the extraction of another CMDRs cargo etc - a corner stone official profession) does not have a place in the game? Huh!?

I think it's time for me to unsubscribe from this thread - It's doing my head in!

ps: FD... Sort out the mindless (illegal) destruction with a very heavy penalty, and see OPEN become far more popular place... Then give people interested in PvP something to actually do it in! After two years, PvP = randomly interdicting CMDRs? Surely in 2016 (2017?) game mechanics should be orchestrating something more intelligent and interesting than this?

 

[Luniticisi]

I'll just put it this way .. I have recently embarked on a slow crawl to Sag A* and back.. just because ... if anyone thinks I am going to do any part of that journey in Open (mostly the coming home bit ) they must be off their rocker !

 

[Cmdr J]

I guess this guy plays ED now? [hehe]

[SUB]The chap appearing after gank-scam-gank-guy knows whats up.[/SUB]

 

[SadPandaa]

I love playing in open and try to every time I log in. I have been killed by players twice I think in 500ish hours, first time was a pirate in character of a different power when I was into powerplay. He was hilarious and we argued jokingly about how much of my cargo he deserves, funnest conversation I have had with another pilot in all of my playtime. In the end I just yelled "Neveeeeerrrrrrrrrr" and fired the first shots, got his shields down but he blew me away lol. I have only been pirated three times, once they let me go after pleading as I was very low on funds and the other time I gave him what he asked for plus extra for the cool experience that is being interdicted by a pirate in character.

The only time I ever go solo is when I am in an area that is so populated that it slows down my fun, like in a RES that has 3 other cmdr's and we are just struggling to get targets for ourselves. I don't believe I have ever had a bad experience in open except the occasional jerk that tries to take your kill in a RES...

 

[Dbrn47]

I guess this guy plays ED now? [hehe]

[SUB]The chap appearing after gank-scam-gank-guy knows whats up.[/SUB]

To be fair, that guy looks like he's been ganked and scammed quite a bit in his real life, Eve is probably his way of getting back at the universe for being so mean to him. [hehe] Yes though, unfortunately, we do have a couple of those in Elite. I don't know how many but I have seen them on streams, they are out there.

 

[NecasekO]

OP, while I believe your numbers are correct, they don't show the whole picture. For me, the worst part about random killing is not the loss of credits or other "resources". It's the feeling of there being something very wrong with the game that allows it and me completely unable to stop it. I still play in open for the positive aspects of it, I just live with the fact that I will get killed from time to time for no reason. I completely understand players who don't want to put up with it though.

Also keep in mind that random murder is highly dependent on player style and ship choice. For players that don't have a lot of credits and fly smaller / non combat ships it is much worse, through no fault of their own.

 

[Cupcake]

No, you're wrong, that's not what I am saying. There's legitimate PvP, there's piracy, there's ganking, and there's griefing. You KNOW the difference because it's been explained to you before but let's go through it again anyway. Gankers, aka seal clubbers, like to find vastly inferior opponents and attack them, often in wings, for no in game reason but simply because they are a hollow square and because there are no consequences. Sure, if you join open you accept that others can atrack you within the bounds of the game, but since we're not playing whack-a-mole I'm unwilling to accept ganking or griefing that occurs simply because there's no good reason NOT to do it - ie: no real crime and punishment system.

- - - Updated - - -



Pretty much, yep.

You didnt need to explain it all again, I just disagree, the definitions of griefing that I see crop up are laughable, with many upstanding righteous PvEers claiming that they openly cheat and exploit, and are actually committing the crime they accuse others of, i.e ruining other players gameplay by logging and cheating.... PvEers already have all the tools they need, including an off button, please dont make yourself look any more stupid. I have only ever encountered ONE CMDR that complied when interdicted and allowed me to open comms, we have been friends ever since (although he quit playing months ago), All others just bolt or log (more the latter sadly) so you see the argument is not as one sided as it seems, you portray us as seal clubbers, it only seems fair to tar PvEers as serial cheats and windbags right? Only fair.

 

[Exigeous]

This really has been an enjoyable conversation for me and I'm glad there have been few that really took it off the rails. Sure this has been discussed many times but as I'm pretty new and felt adding some numbers might color the conversation in a different way.

---------------

This (comparing combat logging to real world mugging) is so totally alien to my concept of what ED could and should be I'm totalled confused!!!??

...I'm utterly against the pointless destruction of a CMDR by another CMDR.

...I think it's time for me to unsubscribe from this thread - It's doing my head in!?

As I've said multiple times I couldn't agree more that there should be MUCH harsher penalties for murdering a commander. If it was so bad you couldn't fly more than a few seconds without being interdicted and it would be a wing of ever increasing numbers and ships, from say a single Anaconda to multiple Corvettes, FAS, FDL, etc. If the penalties were so bad you basically couldn't play I think many gankers would give it a second thought.

As for unsubscribing I've really enjoyed much of the conversation here but we really are starting to beat a dead horse aren't we?

---------------

....I have recently embarked on a slow crawl to Sag A* and back.. just because ... if anyone thinks I am going to do any part of that journey in Open (mostly the coming home bit ) they must be off their rocker !

Of course you shouldn't come back into the bubble in Open in a situation like that, that really would be stupid. This is one of the edge cases where the risk is just way WAY too big. You could call a friend or Iridium Wing to escort you back in, that's what I would do as I love the additional risk and immersion that Open would add. If, however you do decide to come back in flying open, someone grabs you and you combat log IMHO you're FAR worse than a ganker. There is almost no excuse for combat logging, especially if you put yourself in a risky situation that's your fault and exploiting the game is still very wrong. If say you're out in the middle of no where and all of a sudden you drop into a system and see a Python sitting there and he starts heading toward you it's definitely time to log out. In that situation you wouldn't be combat logging as if you exit before you're in danger there's no need, you can just exit.

BEING CLEAR 99% OF THE TIME COMBAT LOGGING IS A COMPLETE AND TOTAL MOVE WITH ZERO EXCUSE

---------------

....a serious symptom something is wrong deeper. ...I just find it hard to blame a clean pve player clogging when interdicted by a fully engineered fdl. I also agree that such a player should be in solo/group.

....To make sure it is clear, i'm not talking about piracy, at all.

I understand exactly what you're saying in regards to an Engineered FDL grabbing and trying to kill say an Asp Ex. Everyone here, save for the gankers/griefers agree that it a total move. The exception I take with this is that there is no reason to combat log/exit just because you get interdicted - for the moment my FDL is the best combat/piracy ship I own. I do keep it outfitted with a cargo bay and hatch breakers as I really do want to pirate rather than shoot. I however never get upset if someone logs out on me, frustrating maybe but never upset. I just wish more commanders would read the messages I send and believe that I'm not going to shoot if they'll stop and chat. I understand why they don't, it's due in large part to the comments in threads like this rather than personal experiences.

 

[V'larr]

That's a valid point, just not something I could quantify. I suppose you could determine the amount of time it takes to earn X millions of dollars and relate that to rebuy cost time. That's near impossible to do, a Viper pilot might only make $2M/hour bounty hunting where I might make $200M doing something like 17 Draconis skimmer missions. While I don't think it would be significant I will agree that the number you're referring to is likely a good deal higher than the.

Not sure why you say you can't answer as I think you did very well. You clearly thinking ganking is "that bad" as it's bad enough to keep you out of open. As I keep trying to make clear that's totally great of you.

That number would only go up as your ship of choice (assuming you continually upgrade, rather than settling on a Cobra IV for life) becomes more valuable, too....

You do have a point, I think my initial POV was that, having avoided participation in Open altogether, I can't actually say whether griefing/etc. is that bad, because I've never subjected myself to it in Elite!

 

[Maelkhor]

This really has been an enjoyable conversation for me and I'm glad there have been few that really took it off the rails. Sure this has been discussed many times but as I'm pretty new and felt adding some numbers might color the conversation in a different way.

Oh I thought you may have blocked me, just to be clear about my first post which most certainly sounded too agressive toward you, my main point was to warn you that the topic was very sensible, very prown to be read behind the lines, and would almost certainly be interpreted in a provocative way and replied as such, whatever the real intent behind it (just like some player would clog even when not really threatened...) , and it could have derailed a lot harder than that. although in the end you managed to keep it one of the most cordial thread relating to the current, PVP/PVE debate, kudo for that.
You also managed, like some other PVP player recently to help me acquire a higher perspective about the debate. Such a shame it often end up by PVE players calling all PVP players griefer, and PVP players calling all PVE players carebears. Real griefer are a (very tiny I hope) minority.

I understand exactly what you're saying in regards to an Engineered FDL grabbing and trying to kill say an Asp Ex. Everyone here, save for the gankers/griefers agree that it a total move. The exception I take with this is that there is no reason to combat log/exit just because you get interdicted - for the moment my FDL is the best combat/piracy ship I own. I do keep it outfitted with a cargo bay and hatch breakers as I really do want to pirate rather than shoot. I however never get upset if someone logs out on me, frustrating maybe but never upset. I just wish more commanders would read the messages I send and believe that I'm not going to shoot if they'll stop and chat. I understand why they don't, it's due in large part to the comments in threads like this rather than personal experiences.

Another CMDR in a thread complained about CLoging, he got hostility for this from open pve players, then he explained he was part of a known group of noobkiller hunter, and he was not complaining at all about hauler cloging, but pvp griefer doing the same. The whole situation become a lot more contrasted after that.

I'm sure most PVP players currently suffer from the situation as much as the PVE players who would like to play in open if <insert there personnal reason not to, like C&P, balance etc.> was met. And cooperation would make more good than the current mindless oposition.

First, an Open PVE server is necessary by fact, CMDR Moebius is handling more than 30 000 of people by himslef. The demand is there, there is no objective reason to fear it would split the community more than it currently is. It could even make people who left ED come back.

About making people more willing to go play in Open, one solution could be handing them a hand, instead of blaming them :

Organise PVP cramschool, ie. propose to PVE player to join a group of seasoned PVP player in their activities :

- Invite them to only play with what they are willing to lose, be it a Drated cobra, or even a sidewinder if they are very short in cash.
- Pirate session, with the goal to show them it can create fun RP situation, and that pirating doesn't necessarly imply killing clean cmdrs.
- Bounty Hunting in sensible zone(to show them they can actually fight the sealcubber with their own weapons.
- Power play, CZ, Hazardous rez

Even if they are not willing to switch fully to open, it may give them incentive to go play in open from time to time.