2 rails is a low DPS build. And compared to the PP, fairly low heat. Try using even a single PHR missile volley after firing your other guns for 10 seconds. You will do serious self DPS every 15 seconds.
1.2 vs 2.2 FDL: A comparison
- Thread starter Alexander the Grape
- Start date
2 rails is a low DPS build. And compared to the PP, fairly low heat. Try using even a single PHR missile volley after firing your other guns for 10 seconds. You will do serious self DPS every 15 seconds.
I'll never understand why so many people hate on the FdL. Frankly that ship is the main reason why I play this game. Unlike many of it's competitors, the FdL actually looks gorgeous. Plus, it's hysterically fun to fly. People act like it's some kind of unstoppable monster, but that just isn't true. Also, what exactly is so wrong if it's popular enough that a lot of people use it? Why does it bother you people if others don't fly the ship you have? Saying the FdL needs to be changed to bring it in line with others would be like Audi saying they need to make the R8 slower because no one is buying A5's anymore. A world where all ships are equal is a stagnant and dead environment. Besides, if you REALLY have skill, you could beat players in FdLs. Don't hate on the ship because you couldn't beat it. I got blown to pieces by a Corvette, and did I moan about how it's too powerful? No. I accepted it and honed my tactics to counter the Corvette's strengths.
TL
R
Stop being ship-racists and grow up when you lose to a player in a different ship than you.
TL
R Stop being ship-racists and grow up when you lose to a player in a different ship than you.
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Pack hounds? No thanks. I don't do powerplay. If I ever do, it would be for Aisling, because prismatic shields are cool.
The pre buff FDL didn't allow for more skill, it required more skill just to break even with other ships. That's a bad design in a combat ship. The current FDL is easier to fly, but that means you can do more things with it. More skills are allowed, not less. The variety and range of different builds possible is what makes it fun to fly, despite its MANY downsides.
I'll never understand why so many people hate on the FdL. (...)
TL
Stop being ship-racists and grow up when you lose to a player in a different ship than you.
With respect, Cmdr ...
I have flown a Courier since 2.1 and I have not lost one single fight to an FdL. I have made vids of myself versus FdL into the basis for well-received PvP guides.
I fought in the PvP League six times. Six times on the winning side, predominantly in FdL.
I was one of a handful of players who pioneered Adle's Armada's adoption of massed FdL's as our signature move in 2.0. We turned 8 - 12 x FdL fights into something I like to think of as space combat art. Watch our 40 - 60 rail gun insta-gib executions of enemies if you want to see what I mean.
I have been PvP-ing in a FdL since the first day of Powerplay, June 2015, when I went to Harma to fight the Archon Delaine pledgers on their own turf on arrival, 1 v 50.
... And ...
... And ...
And I still think the 2.1 / 2.2 FdL has wrecked apex PvP ship diversity because I remember when in 1.4 we were equally likely to encounter FdL, Anaconda, Clipper, Python or FAS.
No offence man you are entitled to support your chosen ship - but am I a ship racist who can't grow up?
The OP, Cmdr Alexander the Grape, is the undefeated winner of the 1v1 PvP League.
Is he a ship racist who can't grow up?
Cmdr S!lk, founder of Adle's Armada, has called for buffs to competitor ships.
So has Cmdr Oogie Boogie, sole founder of the PvP League.
Are they ship racists who can't grow up?
Pipko of SDC is possibly the most feared duellist in the game at this time.
Crimson Kaim is probably the Federation's most celebrated PvP-er.
And yes they have called for FdL rebalances.
Are they also ship racists who can't grow up?
I think that is what a lot of us are getting at. We know that the FDL is a pure combat ship, that much is not in dispute. It has god-awful jump range and fuel tank. If you are careless, then you can also run into heat issues, but that is true for pretty much any ship, not just the FDL. I like the fact that the FDL is a bit easier to use effectively. It makes the ship a more viable option to more people. It does allow you to experiment with it more. I have a lot of fun flying mine (I practically one shotted a wanted NPC T7 just yesterday with my two rail guns tearing into the PP from close range). It is going to be a pain to do engineer mods on it, whenever I finally get around to it, but I am enjoying it as is right now.
Careless? Not necessarily. It's a matter of tradeoffs and choices. The FDL can take advantage of DPS at the cost of heat damage. It's not careless if you're doing it on purpose, eg going full berzerker. Not all ships can do this and have sustained DPS. Ships like the Viper for instance can have high heat builds, but not really high (competitive) DPS, at least not for mixed damage types. The Anaconda and Python can both have high DPS without having to worry about heat very much if at all. But the Python can't skirmish, just a bit too slow at ~440 max combat build. And the Anaconda can only fight people that want to fight it back. Unless they are hiding out of range and sending in their SLF
![[VR] DDM_Reaper20](https://forums-cdn.zaonce.net/data/avatars/m/44/44021.jpg?1588332101){kind=avatar}
I'm sorry for barging in like that, but comparing the Python with the FDL is like comparing a Ferrari sportscar with, say, a Porsche Cayenne. OF COURSE the Ferrari sportscar will outrun the Cayenne, but the latter has it beat in terms of passenger capacity and can carry far more cargo, to boot.
One is multi-role, the other is good for one thing only: combat.
I use my FDL only to take it into HazRes, CZs, or assassination missions. For all other missions, I use an Anaconda I've been equipping for some time (which is, under certain circumstances, superior to the FDL, at least as far as PVE is concerned!).
Buffing the Python will, I'm afraid, not result in PVP becoming more interesting. Some of you keep forgetting that those ships were not balanced exclusively for PVP, but rather, for PVE.
Yes, I know, everybody is aware of that. Personally, I'm dead-set against nerfing ships. I could live with making booster-stacking less rewarding . . . though once the shields on an FDL go down, even with tricked-out military armour and a modded HRP, it's time to leave, lest you get torn apart by missiles . . .
One is multi-role, the other is good for one thing only: combat.
I use my FDL only to take it into HazRes, CZs, or assassination missions. For all other missions, I use an Anaconda I've been equipping for some time (which is, under certain circumstances, superior to the FDL, at least as far as PVE is concerned!).
Buffing the Python will, I'm afraid, not result in PVP becoming more interesting. Some of you keep forgetting that those ships were not balanced exclusively for PVP, but rather, for PVE.
Yes, I know, everybody is aware of that. Personally, I'm dead-set against nerfing ships. I could live with making booster-stacking less rewarding . . . though once the shields on an FDL go down, even with tricked-out military armour and a modded HRP, it's time to leave, lest you get torn apart by missiles . . .
Careless? Not necessarily. It's a matter of tradeoffs and choices. The FDL can take advantage of DPS at the cost of heat damage. It's not careless if you're doing it on purpose, eg going full berzerker. Not all ships can do this and have sustained DPS. Ships like the Viper for instance can have high heat builds, but not really high (competitive) DPS, at least not for mixed damage types. The Anaconda and Python can both have high DPS without having to worry about heat very much if at all. But the Python can't skirmish, just a bit too slow at ~440 max combat build. And the Anaconda can only fight people that want to fight it back. Unless they are hiding out of range and sending in their SLF
Fair enough. However, as I am a PvE player, taking heat damage typically means I got careless or greedy. On my FDL, I don't go full berserker, I am very sparing with my rail guns. I let the pulse lasers do most of the work. The rail guns are reserved for shots that will most likely hit and for targets that warrant using the ammo. I can see where a PvP scenario could make inflicting some heat damage on yourself to be beneficial. However, for my purposes, heat damage is best avoided. Hence my choice of wording.
In PVE the calculation is how much faster are you accumulating CR vs repair costs. In that context taking low level heat damage that stops just shy of malfunction territory in between reloads at stations is a good balance. You can increase your income rate by 50-100% while only taking maybe 70k in damage and 15k in ammo. A good trade off. Requires more frequent station visits,
And btw Rails in PVE? Unless you have plasma slug, you're essentially gutting your DPS and forcing frequent rearming. There are much better options for PVE builds. Almost every other option in fact.
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Yes. Actually. The entire game does NOT revolve around a miniscule upper end percentage of its player base. This fact seems to utterly elude "top rank" players in more or less every game out there. Game balance is based around majority rule, and since there isn't even a distinction in Elite between PvE and PvP mechanics/rule sets, calling for a drastic change to said mechanics based on a niche use case is . FD have to contend with the fact that a) there will always be a mathematically preferred ship composition for *insert niche scenario here* and b) alterations to that niche scenario will have knock on effects everywhere else in the game.
FDL is only one combat ship on his catergory. Vulture is a lower rack. Clipper is multirole, fas is on lower price tag. Python is also multirole. Every ship of that ships is much more useful in PvE than FDL.
So there is no problem with FDL. Everything is on right place.
So what is wrong? There is no competetive ships to FDL for PvP (and as i wrote Python may be competetive, but only in duel, the most of PvP fights are wing battles so we can say its not a good choice, but it still is multirole).
Rebalance FDL? not needed
Rebalance of python/fas/clipper also not needed.
Game just need at least three more combat ships. Similar to FDL, but slightly different with pros/cons and different look, at similar price tag.
FDL is single in his category, so FD should fill category with more ships, not rebalance ships from different categories and not rebalance FDL to fit multirole category.
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Cool comparison chart.
Thoughts: Buff the Python, Clipper and FAS respectively. Leave FDL as it is. Vulture becomes quite good when engineered so not sure it needs a buff but maybe it should get one if the other competitors are pushing it off the scales entirely.
My opinion is that the FDL's competitors should be elevated instead of the FDL brought back down because that is more fun gameplay and variety-wise. The FAS for example could really benefit from a 5th utility slot seeing as how it is the dedicated heavy fighter of the 3 Federal sister ships. The ultimate goal being to return some form of variety to the apex of medium sized ship combat and give the FDL some competitors once more.
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I'll never understand why so many people hate on the FdL. Frankly that ship is the main reason why I play this game. Unlike many of it's competitors, the FdL actually looks gorgeous. Plus, it's hysterically fun to fly. People act like it's some kind of unstoppable monster, but that just isn't true. Also, what exactly is so wrong if it's popular enough that a lot of people use it? Why does it bother you people if others don't fly the ship you have? Saying the FdL needs to be changed to bring it in line with others would be like Audi saying they need to make the R8 slower because no one is buying A5's anymore. A world where all ships are equal is a stagnant and dead environment. Besides, if you REALLY have skill, you could beat players in FdLs. Don't hate on the ship because you couldn't beat it. I got blown to pieces by a Corvette, and did I moan about how it's too powerful? No. I accepted it and honed my tactics to counter the Corvette's strengths.
TL
Stop being ship-racists and grow up when you lose to a player in a different ship than you.
Well, being emotionally attached to it is understandable. Sounds like Python owners before it was adjusted. BTW I had a Python pre nerf and have one now post nerf, and survived. But just like the Python, the FdL is overpowered and needs adjusting. And just like the Python the FdL will likely be quite usable after adjusting. Right now it simply tops too many of the specs with little drawbacks. It needs some things reduced. Downsizing the power plant and removing some utility slots would likely be enough and not hard to change. Others have suggested good ideas as well.
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Especially with a base shield section...
Folks keep forgetting the extra resistance or something that only the FdL shields have - or did FDev remove this special baseline feature. It's an advantage only this ship has and should be calculated into any comparison. But I don't believe FDev ever disclosed what this was... CORRECTED: it was a special hull not shield (see below)
Edit: here's where Sandro mentions the special hull boost on the FdL - #3 post - don't believe a dev has ever said what this is nor if it has ever been removed:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/120789-Love-the-FDL-so-far-BUT?p=1873136&viewfull=1#post1873136
LOL found this ol thread while looking back for info on the FdL shields/hull - forgot I made this post back then but seems appropriate now:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/122107-Fer-De-Lance-Overpowered-(-)?highlight=fdl
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I don't have income problems. On my last outing, I got 690k in bounties and I still had 8 shots left in the rails. I normally run with MCs where the rails are, but rails are fun. Oh, my 5A power plant does not allow me to have the KWS online while the rails are equipped. I'd call that pretty good. I simply use my rail shots somewhat sparingly. I make my shots count and I don't use them on ships where its not required (competent cobras and below). No plasma slug here, like the FDL's fuel tank could support that.
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FDL is a good ship, it's currently my favourite ship to fly because of the combination of excellent speed, a class 4 hardpoint, excellent shields and the ability to be run effectively as a stealth build. The idea that it's some sort of dominant combat ship in the game that can chew through a Python easily is nonsense however. It has number of disadvantages that ships like the Python don't have to deal with that are quite significant trade-offs:
-Requires careful blue-zone maneuvering to maintain its agility.
-Class 4 hardpoint is sub-optimally placed on the underside of the ship.
-Heat management is a major issue.
-Limited internal slots mean it can only carry 1 or 2 class 4 SCBs to recharge its shields.
-Low jump range and cargo capacity make it a poor choice for anything except combat.
-Offset pilot's seat is annoying when flying a fast combat ship.
The main reason I currently fly an FDL despite these disadvantages is because I enjoy a combat ship that is stealth-capable and the FDL is one of the few ships that can support a stealth setup as it can easily use a couple of utility slots for heatsinks. Unfortunately stealth is basically useless in PVE so it's more of a niche setup. Other than interdictions I don't engage in PVP and no one seems to interdict me when I'm flying my FDL so I really don't get the chance to use the ship's stealth capabilities very often. The stealth mode would be a nasty surprise if another CMDR did have the misfortune of interdicting me for some reason and that's the main reason I still run it although the reactive composite armor alone costs over 100 million credits even with a discount.
Overall however the FDL isn't a ship that really needs any changes, it's powerful and effective in its intended role but it can only really do that one role. A Python, on the other hand, can generally match a FDL in combat but also carries large amounts of cargo, has good jump range and fuel tank and is a much more versatile multi-role ship.
-Requires careful blue-zone maneuvering to maintain its agility.
-Class 4 hardpoint is sub-optimally placed on the underside of the ship.
-Heat management is a major issue.
-Limited internal slots mean it can only carry 1 or 2 class 4 SCBs to recharge its shields.
-Low jump range and cargo capacity make it a poor choice for anything except combat.
-Offset pilot's seat is annoying when flying a fast combat ship.
The main reason I currently fly an FDL despite these disadvantages is because I enjoy a combat ship that is stealth-capable and the FDL is one of the few ships that can support a stealth setup as it can easily use a couple of utility slots for heatsinks. Unfortunately stealth is basically useless in PVE so it's more of a niche setup. Other than interdictions I don't engage in PVP and no one seems to interdict me when I'm flying my FDL so I really don't get the chance to use the ship's stealth capabilities very often. The stealth mode would be a nasty surprise if another CMDR did have the misfortune of interdicting me for some reason and that's the main reason I still run it although the reactive composite armor alone costs over 100 million credits even with a discount.
Overall however the FDL isn't a ship that really needs any changes, it's powerful and effective in its intended role but it can only really do that one role. A Python, on the other hand, can generally match a FDL in combat but also carries large amounts of cargo, has good jump range and fuel tank and is a much more versatile multi-role ship.
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Only 690k in bounties?
I guess that's some profit but that's not exactly real progress, unless you're still in Cobra-III territory, progression-wise. When doing combat I rarely ever port before obtaining 2 million in bounties I can hand in in-system, and I typically don't use KWS as they generally only grab bounties that exist out-of-system, in my experience, and as such aren't worth the pain and effort of using them.
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I've never understood what Sandro meant by that best resistance to smaller weapons thing. If you review Cmdr Frentox's hull hardness table here ...
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...-Armor-Damage-Mechanics-Hardness-Piercing-Etc
... it may have just been a reference to the FdL's good (though not unique) hardness value.
If not, there's a secondary layer of damage reduction we don't yet understand although tbh I think that is unlikely. The hull hardness values have been tested with small weapons.
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Well, its hull. it never have matter because python can have 2,5x times more hull than FDL (because python may use a lot of HRP in internal), and this is very old info from the times where Python superiority against FDL was not discussable in duel.
Now in 2.2 a more hull can onlya give you a time to jump, and its not so important in wing battle because rockets/corrosives will melt drive or FSD in seconds.
The only one discussable matter is advantage in duel FDL over the Python by 2 more utilites and 60% bigger base shield.
I though at the beginning it will be 15-20% (and one SCB shoot to compensate), but when i calculated it then its around 3 SCB shots to compensate. As we know its possible to miss 1 SCB shot even with skilled Player, but 3 will not be so easy, because missing first will reveal evade tactic, so next 2 may not be easy to evade.
To make things clear.
1. I am heading to the Colonia now (CG), so my test with Alex need to wait a bit.
2. I am not negating Alexander The Grape skills. He won the league, he is a good player (sorry Alex, i took you at some PvE'r when i have readed your comments and what you pasted in comprasition), but in a comprasition presented by Alex are mistakes:
a) not true about similarity of shield in 1.2. FDL had 30% bigger shield, and that was 'the 30%' what allowed to kill python by FDL by a fast ramming, if python owner was greedy and used SCB too late, or FDL pilot managed to ram a Python quickly enough.
b) in pre 2.1 python was superior to FDL, because of more internals. You was able to incredibly boost hull and spam SCB's. Even heat was not a problem because of no counter for SCB, and you was able to fire 2 6A scb's or 1 HS, and 5 SCB without any HS.
c) in 2.1 python is not flying brick. Its still not so agile as FDL but its not a brick as it was. Its agile enough to take a dogfight with using reverski
d) There is written on comprasition in 2.2 FDL have 3 times bigger base shield. Its not also a true. Shiels is bigger in 30-60% (depend of configuration)
e) FDL is fauvorite in PvP - yes, i agree with it, because the most of PvP is wing-pvp. Duels are missed here, and in duels a python may take a fight with FDL
Pros of python in PvP over FDL:
* Python have more firepower because of 7A capacitor (engineered ofcourse)
* Python have more internals, it means much more armour and more MegaJules in SCB (it may, or may not be countered by Feedbac cascade)
* Python have more DPS - 3x large + 2x meds > 1x huge + 4 meds
Cons of Python:
* 2 U slots less: Thats why Python base shield is 2/3 of FDL shield
* its slower and less agile
* a huge multi is easier to play because it have no delay with shooting
* its worse in wing-wing battle because there is a focus fire, so base shield is more important.
I encourage good PvPers to make some duels Python against FDL, becaue Python have a potential on that matter and i think a PvP scene too much stick to FDL's. I am using also FDL for duels and wing, because i prefer speed over tanking, but its only mine preference, it does not mean FDL is better.
3. There is no change needed in FDL. Just a class of FDL need more ships.
FAS, vulture, clipper, python was never in FDL class, they are in lower classes (vulture, fas, even pricetag is lower) or they are multirole (python is a good example of a ship comparable in combat *duels*, but a multirole, in higher price tag, and better in all other activities than PvP)
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