1.2 vs 2.2 FDL: A comparison

[Truesilver]

@Kyokushin the problem with the coriolis shield number crunching is that on any basis the FdL can fit 2 x resistant boosters and 2 x heavy duty with slots to use for other stuff like sinks or chaff. The Python can't get near that.

It's in the 'realistic build' stakes that the FdL's effective base shield hitpoints magnify v Python.

(Although as I have said, I actually agree with you about the Python for PvE and 1v1, but the latter subject to the FCR argument.)

@Ziljan as you hint, much of the future of PvP ship diversity will depend on the effect the new module protection has on the viability of hybrid builds. In wings the FdL probably can't be displaced but 1v1 may be a different matter.

Roll on Beta.

The only thing I would add to my PvP wings contribution is that I personally believe that, as of right now, four Couriers may actually be superior to four FdL's. Unfortunately I lack sufficient numbers of experienced EU time PvP friends with fully RNGineered Couriers to attempt to prove my hypothesis at a CG. But it would be nice to try...

 

[Kyokushin]

@Kyokushin the problem with the coriolis shield number crunching is that on any basis the FdL can fit 2 x resistant boosters and 2 x heavy duty with slots to use for other stuff like sinks or chaff. The Python can't get near that.

It's in the 'realistic build' stakes that the FdL's effective base shield hitpoints magnify v Python.

(Although as I have said, I actually agree with you about the Python for PvE and 1v1, but the latter subject to the FCR argument.)

@Ziljan as you hint, much of the future of PvP ship diversity will depend on the effect the new module protection has on the viability of hybrid builds. In wings the FdL probably can't be displaced but 1v1 may be a different matter.

Roll on Beta.

The only thing I would add to my PvP wings contribution is that I personally believe that, as of right now, four Couriers may actually be superior to four FdL's. Unfortunately I lack sufficient numbers of experienced EU time PvP friends with fully RNGineered Couriers to attempt to prove my hypothesis at a CG. But it would be nice to try...

Of course its unrealistic is comparing max shielded, however i did it to show extremes.
OK then, 2 augmented and 2 heavy on FDL. On python 2 augmented and 1 heavy. It could be real life situation. 2 Boosters on python is not enough ofcourse.
Its 1300 vs 1900. Its 50% more, not 3 times more. Its actually 1,5 times more. 400 MJ.
Ofc python need to compensate it by SCB or a bit higher dps then, and its 2 shots of 6A SCB.
OK - more resissts applies on FDL because of additional HD booster. But it will still will not be 3 times greater. It rather increase to 1.6.

As i wrote, these ships may be equal in 1v1, ofcourse in wing FDL is better - and that is main reason of people are flying FDL not Python, it depend of one thing - preventing feedback cascade. If FDL pilot manage to prevent all shots then he will drop python shields and then win. If he miss 2 shots then they will be equal, if he miss more, then Python will drop his shields faster.

If you want to fly in Couriers in wing at CG - just let me know, i will join with a pleasure. Courier is my fauvorite *feeling* ship.

 

[Karla]

#20: That insanely awful, offset cockpit view.

Seriously, Art Dept - it's bad. Really bad.

Took me a seriously long time to cope with that offset cockpit view. It still annoys me when I return to it after a long time.

There's going to be a reason why there's a passenger seat in the FDL (and cobra for that matter). If you think the FDL is over powered now, then what's it going to be like when you have a co-pilot hacking your opponents internals or whatever FD has planned?

I actually like the appearance of the FDL. And I fly a gold one, or yellow so I am easily visible to wing mates.

One thing people are forgetting about the FDL is the high rebuy cost. I'm not an experienced PvP'er, although I'd definitely like to get more experience, which is probably why the rebuy cost is a consideration for me. The rebuy on a Vulture is much lower than an FDL as well as being far more fun to fly. But even if you are confident in your PvP skills, having a low rebuy means that you are denying your opponent much chance to gloat too much about your death. And if you do beat them then they feel even worse. This would be more so with an iCourier or Viper.

On a side note it's like a woman sparring against men when Thai boxing. This is why no man ever wanted to fight me when I used to train. If they beat me then they beat a woman. If I beat them then they got beaten by a woman. Not only that, but women fight in ways that men are not used to. It was a lose-lose situation for them. Which somewhat annoyed me because it meant I couldn't practise.

 

[Kyokushin]

One thing people are forgetting about the FDL is the high rebuy cost.

Not exaxtly. In this game we can earn 300-150mln on skimmers stacking, so rebuy of FDL is not a big deal.

 

[Karla]

Not exaxtly. In this game we can earn 300-150mln on skimmers stacking, so rebuy of FDL is not a big deal.

But that's a real grind. You're paying for that high rebuy through actual work. And the exploit is always temporary because states change, especially if everyone starts helping the faction at 17 Draconis.

 

[Kyokushin]

But that's a real grind. You're paying for that high rebuy through actual work. And the exploit is always temporary because states change, especially if everyone starts helping the faction at 17 Draconis.

yes it is I agree.

 

[Truesilver]

If you want to fly in Couriers in wing at CG - just let me know, i will join with a pleasure. Courier is my fauvorite *feeling* ship.

Ha ha - TY

 

[Ddraig]

Except the math, math never lies.

Except the first post in the thread, no other attempts to math the thing.
Fact are the 2.2 has upgrades that are undeniable. Other than that, everything else is about preference, and none is more truth than the other, which is not a bad thing at all.

 

[Shintai]

The FDL is just another example of what goes wrong when PvPers are too vocal. Its so out of proportions to other similar ships. I fly one myself in CZ zones.

 

[sgurr]

The only thing I would add to my PvP wings contribution is that I personally believe that, as of right now, four Couriers may actually be superior to four FdL's. Unfortunately I lack sufficient numbers of experienced EU time PvP friends with fully RNGineered Couriers to attempt to prove my hypothesis at a CG. But it would be nice to try...

Can you post a rough RNGineered courier build to aim for?

I'm competent but almost no real PvP experience, where would be a good palce to start?

 

[Alexander the Grape]

The only thing I would add to my PvP wings contribution is that I personally believe that, as of right now, four Couriers may actually be superior to four FdL's. Unfortunately I lack sufficient numbers of experienced EU time PvP friends with fully RNGineered Couriers to attempt to prove my hypothesis at a CG. But it would be nice to try...

I've had that same thought. A properly outfitted courier is almost impossible to kill. Only question is, how would you defeat phasing? (Particularly long range phasing?)

 

[Ziljan]

I've had that same thought. A properly outfitted courier is almost impossible to kill. Only question is, how would you defeat phasing? (Particularly long range phasing?)

Easy. High thermal resist bulkhead mod on the hull and stacked thermal modded 1D HRPs. You could be running about 1200 effective armor on a tiny hitbox lightning fast sniper. Good luck hitting it with kinetic. Or catching it with missiles for that matter.

 

[Truesilver]

Can you post a rough RNGineered courier build to aim for?

I'm competent but almost no real PvP experience, where would be a good palce to start?

This is what I fly at the moment:

https://coriolis.io/outfit/imperial...B42t25252569.Iw18UA==.Aw18UA==?bn=FCR Courier

(Sorry the above is using the old coriolis, not started using new one yet.)

The usual package of mods, basically: g5 dirty drives, thermal resists on the shield, resistant boosters, g5 charge enhanced distributor.

Then heavy bulkheads (as no mass increase on stock bulkheads) and generally lightweight where possible, eg on the HRP's.

I change the weapons around but currently using rapid fire multi cannons, one with emissive and one with corrosive, plus of course the FCR rail.

There are plenty of vids of the core build in action on my modest PvP Youtube channel here, if interested:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCv1zfoWSxsJZxXQ1iYcxmIA

Just be aware of two things:

(1) Courier PvP is probably not the easiest type of entry to PvP, lol! Be sure to use lateral thrust at all times to avoid ramming and make yourself hard to hit.

(2) There is an alternative build strategy favoured by Cmdr Nyxi of SDC, amongst others, in which you use a c2 Prismatic coupled with SCB's. This offers much higher total shield hp at the expense of the evasiveness offered by Enhanced Drives (the build is too heavy for Enhanced Drives).

Personally the fun of using Enhanced Drives is a large part of my reason for flying the ship, though.

I've had that same thought. A properly outfitted courier is almost impossible to kill. Only question is, how would you defeat phasing? (Particularly long range phasing?)

I've twice had to run from phasing but only after very long fights and in both cases, iirc, only because I didn't have my FCR with me. Phasing damages so slowly and the Courier is so hard to hit that with my modded bulkheads and 3 x HRP it doesn't seem to be a problem.

Easy. High thermal resist bulkhead mod on the hull and stacked thermal modded 1D HRPs. You could be running about 1200 effective armor on a tiny hitbox lightning fast sniper. Good luck hitting it with kinetic. Or catching it with missiles for that matter.

Note that afaik phasing bleed-through damage has no type and so is unaffected by resistances, eg thermal resist modding of bulkhead or HRP. It is only absolute hull hit points that count.

[EDIT: Actually I realise now that perhaps you meant no shield hull tank? Yes of course that would make phasing otiose although as with the Prismatic build it is a heavy option with enough hp and possibly vulnerable to the emissive/corrosive/missile trio. But certainly worth trying and I think I heard the other day that Cmdr Sundae of SDC has one.]

 

[Kyokushin]

I've had that same thought. A properly outfitted courier is almost impossible to kill. Only question is, how would you defeat phasing? (Particularly long range phasing?)

Black friday skin and silent running +2c b It maybe not defeat phasing, but you will be harder to hit both by gimballs and fixes.
As i played 2c b is charging up quick enough to make shield as almost on/off feature.
To mask a heat from engines you can boost at near miss then fa off and reverse in silent. In SR ships are disappearing from sensors faster when they have a their nose in your direction.
It was changed in 2.1, and is easy to hid in that way in a small ship with black skin. In wing fight these couriers are really a pain..

It will not be good build for courier vs courier, but for wing-wing encounter.

We finally had a fight 2 couriers vs cutter (we had no torpedoes, i had one imperial rail and some pulse as i remember, friend had some lasers). We played over 15 minutes a cat and mouse, finally dropped shield from the cutter and guy jumped out.

Courier have a potential for trolling and random encounters. I still do not know how it would works in battle 4vs4.

Note that afaik phasing bleed-through damage has no type and so is unaffected by resistances, eg thermal resist modding of bulkhead or HRP. It is only absolute hull hit points that count.

yes, resistances have no matter, only raw hp.

In fact hull tanking now is pointless. It may only allow a way to flee before destruction, corrosives or rockets are so strong to allow continue a fight on hull.

 

[sgurr]

This is what I fly at the moment:

https://coriolis.io/outfit/imperial...B42t25252569.Iw18UA==.Aw18UA==?bn=FCR Courier

(Sorry the above is using the old coriolis, not started using new one yet.)

The usual package of mods, basically: g5 dirty drives, thermal resists on the shield, resistant boosters, g5 charge enhanced distributor.

Then heavy bulkheads (as no mass increase on stock bulkheads) and generally lightweight where possible, eg on the HRP's.

I change the weapons around but currently using rapid fire multi cannons, one with emissive and one with corrosive, plus of course the FCR rail.

There are plenty of vids of the core build in action on my modest PvP Youtube channel here, if interested:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCv1zfoWSxsJZxXQ1iYcxmIA

Just be aware of two things:

(1) Courier PvP is probably not the easiest type of entry to PvP, lol! Be sure to use lateral thrust at all times to avoid ramming and make yourself hard to hit.

(2) There is an alternative build strategy favoured by Cmdr Nyxi of SDC, amongst others, in which you use a c2 Prismatic coupled with SCB's. This offers much higher total shield hp at the expense of the evasiveness offered by Enhanced Drives (the build is too heavy for Enhanced Drives).

Personally the fun of using Enhanced Drives is a large part of my reason for flying the ship, though.

Cheers for that, and I'll look through the vids.

1. Aiming fixed feels very twitchy and needs practice, laterals I use but using them well? no idea

2. not for me I think.

Is it lightweight on the rail? I guess it's only there for SCB so the reduced damage doesn't matter?

Did you mean to use a class 4 PP?

Edit: apparently I've given rep too recently or I would've

 

[Aris_]

No joke, I was all in favour of the original Python nerf, but I given how critical U-slots are now, I seriously think it should be given another two.

Hell, give everything other than Corvette/Conda/Cutter/Courier/FDL another two U-slots and it probably would only make things more even...

Totally agree, FAS has the ability to threaten FDL even with weaker shields - FGS can use way more but anything is better than nothing

+1 rep

 

[Truesilver]

Cheers for that, and I'll look through the vids.

1. Aiming fixed feels very twitchy and needs practice, laterals I use but using them well? no idea

2. not for me I think.

Is it lightweight on the rail? I guess it's only there for SCB so the reduced damage doesn't matter?

Did you mean to use a class 4 PP?

Edit: apparently I've given rep too recently or I would've

I currently have long range on the rail because rails are subject to punitive damage fall off by range and long range mitigates that. I do use it for damage as well as SCB's.

There is a reason for the c4 PP although off the top of my head I can't recall it! I can't (or couldn't) use a 3A PP because it wouldn't power the build (and I only want A grade for heat management). I think it may be that coriolis is understating the power requirement of the enhanced thrusters. Or I made the ship with higher power weapons. Or something! Will have to check.

Re learning to use fixed weapons, hopefully my guide below may be of assistance:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...s-No-2-Beginner’s-Guide-Courier-v-FdL-PvP-vid

 

[jasonbarron]

Turned out to be an awesome and informative thread.

 

[EUS]

This is what I fly at the moment:

https://coriolis.io/outfit/imperial...B42t25252569.Iw18UA==.Aw18UA==?bn=FCR Courier

(Sorry the above is using the old coriolis, not started using new one yet.)

Using your build, you get more speed using 3A over 3A Enhanced.
3A Enhanced 286/388 to 305/414 3A

 

[sgurr]

I currently have long range on the rail because rails are subject to punitive damage fall off by range and long range mitigates that. I do use it for damage as well as SCB's.

There is a reason for the c4 PP although off the top of my head I can't recall it! I can't (or couldn't) use a 3A PP because it wouldn't power the build (and I only want A grade for heat management). I think it may be that coriolis is understating the power requirement of the enhanced thrusters. Or I made the ship with higher power weapons. Or something! Will have to check.

Re learning to use fixed weapons, hopefully my guide below may be of assistance:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...s-No-2-Beginner’s-Guide-Courier-v-FdL-PvP-vid

Well I know what I'm studying for a while, cheers.

Using your build, you get more speed using 3A over 3A Enhanced.
3A Enhanced 286/388 to 305/414 3A

Use this one

The old coriolis site isn't being updated and doesn't have the correct stats for enhanced thrusters, this is the new one:
http://beta.coriolis.edcd.io/
edit: allows you to specify % mod adjustments too, click on the spanner

from here:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/296769-Coriolis-EDCD-Edition