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Agree, and this is why I think it's better to have 50k die hard fan backers instead 500k recruited with a great marketing campaign. In the bottom line we have more cohesion in the ED side
Jepp. Niche games usually feel like they are done right while games made for a bigger group of players have to play for all sides or focus on the majority which usually means the hardcore players do not get what they really want.
Ok. So I just tried out the new patch and my favorite part about it is being able to load up the AC module from the menu. It even "feels" more complete for some reason.
I also just got my X52 today and tried it out. It's still far from perfect, but it feels A LOT better. I don't know if it was just my old joystick, or if they made some changes.
I also just got my X52 today and tried it out. It's still far from perfect, but it feels A LOT better. I don't know if it was just my old joystick, or if they made some changes.
Indeed! I plugged in my thrustmaster and now I am able to get to wave 3 before dying (with K&M I'm able to play to wave 7). Huge improvement over the HOTAS controls (sensitivity seems to be much lower now), but still not quite "there" yet. Hopefully they will get it fixed in the end!
Edit: They also decreased thruster output on YAW, so you cannot turn as fast as before.
EDIT2: Just got to wave 10 before I died (Not with HOTAS). I was flying around with 1 gun and 1 wing for the last 2 waves xD
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Why do you start comparing the gameplay of these two games? I am not talking about it. I am speaking of technical aspects of the game - the process of the development. And here FD has done a great job, while CIG simply cannot do the same.
I would define FD approach as: measure thrice and cut once. They develop everything on paper until they like what they get and start working on the realization when they have a solid picture of what they want to achieve.
CIG is doing everything absolutely the opposite way - they do not know what exactly they want, hence they release something and start patching it all the time.
It is obvious that they could not have released AC at the same level as ED Alpha was released.
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Well then watch E: D videos. If AC is such a pain.
Hehehehe, but we want AC to be so much better than we feel it is, that's why we moan about it
It's all about perception. The controls issues do not even appear in the "Known Issues" section, which suggests they are not important to CIG - if you want to look at it that way. If they had an alternate section with priority items being worked on as "Improvements" and this included a reference to the controls - it would go a long way to give some of us a bit of confidence in CIG, and that they are taking it seriously.
I'm late to the party so please forgive me going over old posts. But this one I had to speak on as there is such complete truth to it that it is disturbing. From what has been predicted, and seen, the whole focus has gone against what the original backers even wanted. It went from being a space simulator with many different modes beneath the surface, to being an arcade game. Control focus was expected to be flightsticks and HOTAS, but instead it is Mouse (Dominant and easy) and Gamepads. Challenging has been swapped out for Fun and Cool because small brains don't realize that there is more fun than aware of in challenging games, and the needs of the masses have now replaced the needs of the true believers who gave true faith to the cause.
And don't dare ask for the focus to be placed back on skill based mechanics because when the easy button buccaneers come with their drama, they do so with the full support of the moderators. If you ask for a feature to be added that will offer something for flight combat types, the training wheel kids go out of their way to make it seem like you are trying to rewrite the whole universe. I used to think that the E
types here were just being negative without justification, or just jealous, but there truly is something to your claims. More and more the data shows that they are moving away from the simulation side over to the casual modern gaming side. Picture me creating a hardcore NASCAR simulation, but instead of coding it to use wheel controllers I configure it to work with a mouse first and foremost. Support for wheel controllers may come into play later.As for the mouse fiasco, I along with others called that one. The 3PV issues, we called that one as well, and we proved it. Resistance left and right, and CIG didn't even bother to respond to what information we provided. For the flight combat sim side this is turning into a clear case of bait and switch. They got what they needed from the OGs to get things started with Kickstarter, now they flipped the script and are catering to the group that is bringing in the most money. All you hear is pre-alpha this and pre-alpha that as an excuse for crap that shouldn't be in the sim for the first run in the first place. What we see is the model they were always going to put out in the first place.
I proposed a pure dogfighter ship that would have more maneuverability, and Class 1 fixed mounts for weapons, something that would cater to skill based pilots who have been dying to get back into dogfighting. All I got was claims on why it supposedly wouldn't work, yet they didn't even bother to give us a chance to find out for ourselves. They can put in 3PV combat, and mouse control (That we proved grants an advantage) that syncs turreted weapons with the ship's flight path, and increases the weapons firing arcs, but they can't give us the chance to test and prove the need for fixed mount weapons.
This is the crap that keeps slowly popping up. The I told you so list is getting longer.
you just explained pay 2 win concept
ok, there's no win will scream defenders but call whatever you want it p2w or pay 2 compete the fact remains: who has more money has better ships, equipment and can earn more cash in game per hour just because he will start in better suited ship with bigger cargo bay or better weapons and that IS pay 2 win for me neither did i, but like Nowak told - CIG couldn't care less about hotas users so their priority is Occulus rift (which CR smartly has thrown upon excited devs that did this on their own), gamepad and KB&M, so devs were much less excited about trackIr, Hotas, Sticks, shouldn't that be the indicator to the ones who really are developing SC?
"Why do you start comparing the gameplay of these two games? I am not talking about it."
That's the main question going around on both forums, about the gameplay. My reply was not specific to you, but to everybody that has the opinion that the gameplay is boring and dull and have to be changed, sorry if it came out the wrong way.
About your other point, you are allowed to have the opinion (and probably many agree) that CIG's development process is flawed, and is being done the wrong way compared to ED's development process, but it's because of the way CIG structured the game early on.
You see, they promised backers early access to their ships, so the first year or so was spent developing the base ship models and the hangar module, it was not until after the Hanger Module got released (august 2013?) that they focused on the other aspects of the game. This is probably one of the main reasons for such a successful crowd-funding, people see the shiny ships and wish to "pledge" to get them.
If we start discussing about ED's fast developing progress compared to SC, it's not really that easy to compare in my opinion.
From what I have read online is that ED started their development with a full team of employees (The Elite
angerous kickstarter mentions they had ca 240 devs ready back in 2012) while CIG only had a team of 12 back in august of 2012, and it took them about a year and a half to get up to the same level as ED. We can also mention the other time advantage of having a finished game engine ready for deployment, saving a lot of development resources for ED. It's true that CIG could have chosen another engine, but they did not so they have had to modify the CryEngine for their use for the past 1.5 years of current development. If we look at an example, it took the CIG team about 6 months (?) to modify the backend of CryEngine for their specific use.If you take those things into consideration you can see why ED may seem more polished than SC in its Alpha and Beta releases. They have had more time on their hands to focus on gameplay for their builds while SC has only had the last few weeks to focus on their gameplay for their early alpha release of the AC. Does not help that there are nearly half a million backers spamming the forums demanding this and demanding that. If only SC stayed a niche game
From what I have read online is that ED started their development with a full team of employees (The Elite
that was mentioned here before. ED has involved 70-100 developers.
http://www.techradar.com/news/gaming/-the-tech-caught-up-to-our-ambition-david-braben-on-the-return-of-elite-1248142
"Why do you start comparing the gameplay of these two games? I am not talking about it."
That's the main question going around on both forums, about the gameplay. My reply was not specific to you, but to everybody that has the opinion that the gameplay is boring and dull and have to be changed, sorry if it came out the wrong way.
About your other point, you are allowed to have the opinion (and probably many agree) that CIG's development process is flawed, and is being done the wrong way compared to ED's development process, but it's because of the way CIG structured the game early on.
You see, they promised backers early access to their ships, so the first year or so was spent developing the base ship models and the hangar module, it was not until after the Hanger Module got released (august 2013?) that they focused on the other aspects of the game. This is probably one of the main reasons for such a successful crowd-funding, people see the shiny ships and wish to "pledge" to get them.
If we start discussing about ED's fast developing progress compared to SC, it's not really that easy to compare in my opinion.
From what I have read online is that ED started their development with a full team of employees (The Elite
If you take those things into consideration you can see why ED may seem more polished than SC in its Alpha and Beta releases. They have had more time on their hands to focus on gameplay for their builds while SC has only had the last few weeks to focus on their gameplay for their early alpha release of the AC. Does not help that there are nearly half a million backers spamming the forums demanding this and demanding that. If only SC stayed a niche game
I thought it was addressed to me as you quoted me in your previous post.
As for FD staff working on ED you are completely wrong. About 70-100 people are working on ED and not 240 as you say.
Wait what? Who had finished engine? FD was developing Cobra engine for years but they have started reworking it for ED only after KS campaign. Exactly like CIG who bought CryEngine and started its extensive modifications. Which means you are wrong again.
That's really funny to hear that CIG was working only two weeks on the gameplay. Sorry, but back in December 2013 CR stated that they already had a playable DFM, however being a perfectionist he did not want to release it in that state, he wanted to polish it. However, I see nothing polished in AC. Or may be CR has a different definition of "perfection"?
And what you said about early access to the ships aka Hangar module, which has drawn attention from easily impressed community. Hangar module is complete non-sense gameplay wise. What is the deal of walking around the ships you can't fly? It is like owning a car you cannot drive. This is a true example that CIG was focused on getting more money instead of developing the game. The whole process of their developing shows money-centered approach instead of actual gameplay development. Their PR is doing a great job - hundreds of thousands poligons, variety of ships etc. instead of working on the gameplay and then adding such content as ships. And hence we have a lot of nice ships that were actually made wrong and have to be re-designed again and again. Idris - corvette, but it cannot fly as a Corvette, it should be larger to be able to fly - so it should be redesigned as a Frigate. These problems could have easily be avoided if they went from the flight model to ships and not otherwise. But this would not allow them to achieve current funding.
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psyron
Banned
I have to disagree on this one!
Because ... and what ever you might think ... subjective or objective ...
...
Just kidding! You are absolutely right!
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I am building a whole house myself the last 3 years. The phrase "measuring twice and cut once" isn't just an old relict of the past - it's really the most important rule towards success! FD are real professionals!
I have to disagree on this one!
Because ... and what ever you might think ... subjective or objective ...
...
Just kidding! You are absolutely right!
Edit:
I am building a whole house myself the last 3 years. The phrase "measuring twice and cut once" isn't just an old relict of the past - it's really the most important rule towards success! FD are real professionals!
Just a little remark as a proverb is "measure thrice and cut once". Thrice means 3 times.
You missed so badly on this one. Already proven through play and caught on video that not only can an new player fight effectively in 3PV combat, but also that as predicted, sensors w/missile lock, guns, and missiles are still active as well as their being targeting markers on screen even without the use of a HUD.
There is nothing Heroic about that.
What I would like to hear is your thoughts on these two videos below. The first one shows the unbelievable weapons arc that gimbaled weapons have when a mouse is used. Also notice that the mouse player can not only guide where his weapons are pointing but he is also controlling his ship at the same time. Time mark 4:47 is a good start.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=wlN0l5DsIZo
The next video is even more damning as there are targeting circles seen. I believe the targeting circles have been removes as of update 12.3, but you can still lock, track, and fire guns and missiles on target. More so if you practice.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=HAtxVLya0oQ
So still think it is heroic? Clearly you been playing a completely different version than everyone else.
I can only say that you can use 3PV but it is absolutely ineffective for combat.
Ya, it was kinda addressed to a previous statement from you when you mentioned the gameplay as boring, but also meant to others that meant the same. xD
Maybe it’s 70-100 now, but here: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1461411552/elite-dangerous It says FD had about 235 staff members on hand in the UK and Canada. I cannot say for sure but they have probably all at one point of another been working on the game. Still 70 – 100 is more than CIG’s 12.
Well still their engine was designed for this type of game since Braben has been wanting to revisit the Elite series for a long time and planned ahead. The engine CIG “bought” was not designed by nature for zero g flying and to be used as a “MMO” engine. So they also here had an advantage.
Na. The reason for the delay was the multiplayer backend. They initially wanted to use a the CryEngine netcode, but decided it would be a waste of time and wanted to instead design their own which they then used the next 6 months on. The flight system they had back then is probably the same one we are demoing now since if you look at the livestream they did in December, it looks about the same, so it really has not been worked on that until probably PAX event.
You see nothing polished perhaps but there are people with other opinions on this matter. I for one believe the game had some rough spots but was a nice polished alpha release with minimal with game breaking bugs (unless you count not having proper HOTAS support as gamebreaking)
A bit of misinformation here.
This was something that was planned from THE START. If you read their kickstarter it mentions it promised backers early access to their ships after 12 months. Because it was a success and probably helped them gain extra money is just good for them. Does not mean they are “money hungry” and do not care about gameplay. This was also a bit wrong. Idris got redesigned because of SQ42. They needed a bigger ship for the singleplayer missions so they increased the size. Also if you read Star Citizen kickstarter, it says there about their physics based flight model, so it was planned from the start. They even had an early working model (you can see it in use on their kickstarter).
Would be nice if we could continue to have a friendly tone while discussing this. Friendly discussion is the best type of discussion
Also sry for some spelling mistakes, I am really tired and should go to bed xD Too lazy to fix in microsoft word. I'll continue the discussion with you tomorrow! Good Night
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MPC, I just wanted to say that even though I may disagree with some of your views, I really appreciate that you took the time to respond to individual points.
BTW Almost 300 people are working on Star Citizen now, more than Frontier employs total, and way more than the number of FD employees working on Elite. Source is in this thread a couple pages ago.
You raised a few good points about the engine - even though Frontier started work in earnest after the kickstarter, they were probably making sure that they could do Elite with their engine eventually.
But I ask you, does that really matter? What matters to me is the result. Chris Roberts could've just bought out the Infinity Engine guys and have the greatest space engine ever made. Hell, for that amount of money he could easily buy Terra or a similar professional-grade visualization engine that is not only great for space and ground, but even goes down to the FPS level.
I think the main point for me personally is that I've come to realize just how small in scope Star Citizen really is designed to be. To me, the expectation is now that of an updated Privateer/Freelancer mix with high poly ships and a FPS portion. I may well be positively surprised in the end, but for the moment that's where I set my expectations. Calling it the BFSSG or similar is unwarranted however. It can still be fun, it can still be quite awesome, but it doesn't look like it's going to fill my need to roam free in space.
BTW did you guys see the trailer thingy Nowak linked, the one where you can see a brief glimpse of inter-system travel in a scripted, pre-rendered cutscene? I really don't see how that can hold a candle to Elite, even though it was pre-produced and could've shown how amazing travel is going to be.
I betcha it's going to be a cutscene in the final game. I can't see them getting anything like ED's Supercruise into the game.
BTW Almost 300 people are working on Star Citizen now, more than Frontier employs total, and way more than the number of FD employees working on Elite. Source is in this thread a couple pages ago.
You raised a few good points about the engine - even though Frontier started work in earnest after the kickstarter, they were probably making sure that they could do Elite with their engine eventually.
But I ask you, does that really matter? What matters to me is the result. Chris Roberts could've just bought out the Infinity Engine guys and have the greatest space engine ever made. Hell, for that amount of money he could easily buy Terra or a similar professional-grade visualization engine that is not only great for space and ground, but even goes down to the FPS level.
I think the main point for me personally is that I've come to realize just how small in scope Star Citizen really is designed to be. To me, the expectation is now that of an updated Privateer/Freelancer mix with high poly ships and a FPS portion. I may well be positively surprised in the end, but for the moment that's where I set my expectations. Calling it the BFSSG or similar is unwarranted however. It can still be fun, it can still be quite awesome, but it doesn't look like it's going to fill my need to roam free in space.
BTW did you guys see the trailer thingy Nowak linked, the one where you can see a brief glimpse of inter-system travel in a scripted, pre-rendered cutscene? I really don't see how that can hold a candle to Elite, even though it was pre-produced and could've shown how amazing travel is going to be.
I betcha it's going to be a cutscene in the final game. I can't see them getting anything like ED's Supercruise into the game.
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