You balance the trade-offs.
It's not like the x86-Linux client and Win64 client are going to be identical regardless of which graphics API they use.
So is there enough dev work saved (if any) in using the same API to compensate for the loss of features (if any).
There are also archetectural issues to consider. If the engine's API calls are well integrated with more generalized code, and you have a W10 team and a Linux team, and your W10 team is more familiar with DX12; you may go that way.
Or if you also have an XBOX client, and that's way more similar to your Win64 client than your linux client is, and that's using DX12; then you may use DX12 in Win64.
Or if DX12 offers you better performance on a Win64 platform, or extra features...
The reasons to chose something are complex.
Valve is certainly working a bigger game; though their console has not managed to catch on. I am very much a Gabe fanboy and as long as he's at the helm of Valve, I'm supportive of most all they do. (and you should see how their actual operation is run...way cool).
Steam and Valve have pretty big muscles in terms of being a video game distribution and hosting platform – which is awesome for me, being a Debian "Jessie" backports user, which SteamOS is built on. Every game on Steam listed as being SteamOS/Linux compatible that I've tried, even if it lists Ubuntu as a requirement, has worked flawlessly for me. Anyway, that being said, they still don't have the same level of muscle or at least entrenchment as Windows in the world of gaming, and more importantly to devs, game sales. Fortunately for Valve, they sell games for Windows.
Other than the NES, I'm not a console user. If I were I would go with a Steam Machine, or more likely, a Steam Machine I built myself, of course. There really is no need to for me though, since I have my main PC hooked up to my TV as it is anyway. I mean, I could even just use a laptop wireless and hook it up to my TV and use it as a console. In theory, consoles really shouldn't even be relevant anymore, except of course for their existing entrenchment and continued push by the higher ups, and very importantly, their ease of use. People don't have to figure out anything beyond plugging them in or using them over Wi-Fi.
Steam Machines are one half of one dichotomy and another half of a different one, which unfortunately doesn't really add up to a whole. As a Linux user, it would be awesome if they took off, but they're solving a problem that doesn't really exist. I mean, I was hooking my PCs up to TVs even back in the very early 2000s/late '90s.
I have a suspicion that some of the very high ups at Microsoft and Sony wouldn't really even mind if PCs (as we know them now) went away altogether, so they could just sell us their proprietary walled garden boxes. Windows 10 (and before it 8 and 8.1) and especially DirectX 12 are a measured incremental move in that direction. In the short term, this is probably even a good thing for some gamers and users who aren't as computer savvy. In the long term though, I think this limits choice and really even capability and innovation. I can understand if some might take this as being hyperbole, but from my experience it really isn't. Working with radio gear and electronics hardware on a design level, it becomes painfully obvious just how intentionally crippled some things are to maintain the relevance and value of intellectual properties to those who have an invested interest in their continued proliferation. I mean, we even see the same thing in regards to the implementation of encryption technology (security) on the hardware level.
I'd love to go into some of the specifics of the amazing things current electronics hardware and firmware are capable of – I'm talking about an order of magnitude better efficiency or capability in some cases – but that's getting too far off topic.
Other than the NES, I'm not a console user. If I were I would go with a Steam Machine, or more likely, a Steam Machine I built myself, of course. There really is no need to for me though, since I have my main PC hooked up to my TV as it is anyway. I mean, I could even just use a laptop wireless and hook it up to my TV and use it as a console. In theory, consoles really shouldn't even be relevant anymore, except of course for their existing entrenchment and continued push by the higher ups, and very importantly, their ease of use. People don't have to figure out anything beyond plugging them in or using them over Wi-Fi.
Steam Machines are one half of one dichotomy and another half of a different one, which unfortunately doesn't really add up to a whole. As a Linux user, it would be awesome if they took off, but they're solving a problem that doesn't really exist. I mean, I was hooking my PCs up to TVs even back in the very early 2000s/late '90s.
I have a suspicion that some of the very high ups at Microsoft and Sony wouldn't really even mind if PCs (as we know them now) went away altogether, so they could just sell us their proprietary walled garden boxes. Windows 10 (and before it 8 and 8.1) and especially DirectX 12 are a measured incremental move in that direction. In the short term, this is probably even a good thing for some gamers and users who aren't as computer savvy. In the long term though, I think this limits choice and really even capability and innovation. I can understand if some might take this as being hyperbole, but from my experience it really isn't. Working with radio gear and electronics hardware on a design level, it becomes painfully obvious just how intentionally crippled some things are to maintain the relevance and value of intellectual properties to those who have an invested interest in their continued proliferation. I mean, we even see the same thing in regards to the implementation of encryption technology (security) on the hardware level.
I'd love to go into some of the specifics of the amazing things current electronics hardware and firmware are capable of – I'm talking about an order of magnitude better efficiency or capability in some cases – but that's getting too far off topic.
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Don't forget Bethesda has picked Vulkan to port DOOM to.
also the Nintendo Switch will be based on Vulkan, too.
DX12 is not necessarily the defacto outside the Xbox/Win10 world.
Since DX12 and Vulkan literally come from the exact same codebase (thanks Mantle), It makes precious little sense for Frontier to pick DX12, since they're already writing for platforms beyond Xbox/Win10.
There are a lot of members of the Khronos group, https://www.khronos.org/members/list -- There is a lot more than just Valve on that list. This isn't just OpenGL all over again, so It would be a mistake to believe Vulkan isn't an inflection point for the gaming industry.
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also the Nintendo Switch will be based on Vulkan, too.
DX12 is not necessarily the defacto outside the Xbox/Win10 world.
Since DX12 and Vulkan literally come from the exact same codebase (thanks Mantle), It makes precious little sense for Frontier to pick DX12, since they're already writing for platforms beyond Xbox/Win10.
There are a lot of members of the Khronos group, https://www.khronos.org/members/list -- There is a lot more than just Valve on that list. This isn't just OpenGL all over again, so It would be a mistake to believe Vulkan isn't an inflection point for the gaming industry.
US$0.02++
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Lack of obvious features, inexplicable bugs, reliance on the community to write basic tools that should be built in, out of date or missing documentation, defended by blind fans...
ED would fit in well on Linux. I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet, given all the other ports.
(not trying to be overly critical of either Linux or ED, just illustrating that the devs seem to have Linux background and expectations, so it's strange they haven't ported it)
ED would fit in well on Linux. I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet, given all the other ports.
(not trying to be overly critical of either Linux or ED, just illustrating that the devs seem to have Linux background and expectations, so it's strange they haven't ported it)
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Frontier surely wants to keep the control of its game
It will support Vulkan – just like the majority of other platforms, too –, but not be based on it.
The guy is also comparing OpenGL to DX11. OpenGL still loses.
Sorry i just have to interfere when i see something too wrong... i just have to...
You cannot compare DX12 and OpenGL
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The Early-year benchmarks between DX11 and Vulkan were not favorable to Vulkan either... though that may have changed.
I wouldn't mind a 16 or 32 core Zen chip myself so yeah, I get that.
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Why not? They are both API's, designed for gaming and testable with Apples-to-Apples performance runs.
Google it. Many people already have compared them, and Vulkan, and DX 11, and Mantle.
So I take it you've never professionally supported relatively large scale deployment of Windows on thousands of machines and had to deal with the headaches, late nights, and loss of user productivity because of buggy messes Microsoft occasionally sneaks in under the radar. Honestly, I wasn't sure which OS you were ragging on until you mentioned reliance on the community. No surprise there though; Linux is largely for the community by the community.
There have been well known bugs in Windows that have even been around for years. Some of them still exist to this day.
I'm also kind of curious what features you feel are lacking from the various Linux distributions, desktop GUIs, package managers, and package repositories out there compared to what is available in a basic Windows installation, or heaven forbid, one that includes prebundled crapware. I can think of one offhand myself, but I haven't checked in on it recently, so there may be support for it now that I'm not aware of. On the other hand, Microsoft's implementation was very buggy and could even break itself – and on my laptop, it did – the last time I used it back in Windows 8.1. If we're including Android (which I wasn't), I guess Linux technically offers support for it as well.
It's not that easy making a stable, feature rich, secure, efficient, user friendly OS and updating it without breaking something somewhere. Caring also helps. That being said, Debian/KDE and Windows 7 continue to work quite well and reliably for me overall.
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Did you not do, like, acceptance testing before patch deployment?
Of course we did, but we were supporting a pretty diverse user base, usage scenarios, and software needs, so some issues occasionally slipped through. These issues were fortunately pretty rare. I helped out with testing and deployment, but I tended to do more research and maintenance on the client side of things. I don't want to get into too many specifics, but there were too many egos and ambitions involved, so I'm glad I've since moved on, even though I was very heavily invested in client and user support. But I digress... I was mostly just trying to point out that Windows can and does occasionally have its issues too, of course. Doesn't mean it isn't a viable and often preferred OS.
Linux can involve a lot of modifying to set it up how you want it for yourself, perhaps even more so when used as a desktop OS, but I haven't really found it to be all that buggy in general. Some distributions are more refined and stable while others can be fun to test various new changes, software, and updates on. I've found a happy middle ground for myself for general use, and haven't experienced any real significant issues. Naturally I set up server OSs somewhat differently as well, but for my personal use they're pretty small scale with more than enough resources, which gives me a little more leeway for creative freedom, as it were.
On the other hand, some Linux desktop users seem to prefer fairly minimalistic and lightweight setups. That tends not to appeal to me that much, as I like having more functionality and customizability at my disposal.
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The core foundations of Linux are quite stable; which is one reason it's as popular as it is for a server OS. The individual pieces on top of that vary from excellent to terrible.
But modifying setup for " diverse user base, usage scenarios, and software needs"... that sounds... labor intensive.
I generally share your position there; though as I've gotten older I mostly just want the OS the hell out of the way so I can work in whatever application I'm spending time in.
It's really not
Linux on mainframe is really quite a wonderful thing - but it does have its inherent limitations. I still get a good giggle when I'm asked to provision X for Y to do A, and they get a lovely juicy LPAR. Sometimes the Linux guys scream "What on earth is this?" and you can just hear the Z/OS guys laughing in amusement - "It's your OS!"
The hardware really doesn't care
We were discussing desktop Linux with "a lot of modifying to set it up how you want it" for a "diverse user base, usage scenarios, and software needs".It's really not
Linux on mainframe is really quite a wonderful thing - but it does have its inherent limitations. I still get a good giggle when I'm asked to provision X for Y to do A, and they get a lovely juicy LPAR. Sometimes the Linux guys scream "What on earth is this?" and you can just hear the Z/OS guys laughing in amusement - "It's your OS!"
It's all the exact same thing
That is how Linux meets a diverse user base, usage scenarios, and software needs
Linux on mainframe is really quite a wonderful thing - but it does have its inherent limitations. I still get a good giggle when I'm asked to provision X for Y to do A, and they get a lovely juicy LPAR. Sometimes the Linux guys scream "What on earth is this?" and you can just hear the Z/OS guys laughing in amusement - "It's your OS!"
Wouldn't it be kinder to tell them to RTFM?
https://www.suse.com/documentation/sles-12/book_sle_deployment/data/cha_zseries.html
Damn... you got me...Did I miss something and they renamed Vulkan to Vulcan to avoid spelling confusions or something?
All the language swapping .....i get used to reading C as i would normally K, you guys come up with word that is written the other way....
This is bound to happen ... this just isnt (yes it is really annoying and complicated to write that apostrophe sign) my native language.
still i think its acceptable, considering that i never took any lesson... or anything.
Guys, more practical news
* I got video not playing bug reported here and it seems it got fixed https://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41972
* I got to the point where I can get to main menu - it fails however due of some silent crash for passing over security tokens to game https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvrc7qigY-I&feature=youtu.be
TLDR good news we have started to do actual progress to get ED launching under Wine/Linux. Bad news that there are some serious issues to fix before we even can get to DirectX11 testing
Btw, if you are good at Wine/testing/debugging stuff and want to help to get ED running under Wine - join me and others in my efforts!
* I got video not playing bug reported here and it seems it got fixed https://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41972
* I got to the point where I can get to main menu - it fails however due of some silent crash for passing over security tokens to game https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvrc7qigY-I&feature=youtu.be
TLDR good news we have started to do actual progress to get ED launching under Wine/Linux. Bad news that there are some serious issues to fix before we even can get to DirectX11 testing
Btw, if you are good at Wine/testing/debugging stuff and want to help to get ED running under Wine - join me and others in my efforts!
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