The Star Citizen Thread v5

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Depth in the context of a games is well known, perhaps you should look it up? It is no different then saying you want to see them flush out the current mechanics. But if you really don't understand what it means to have depth in a game, I will try to explain it to you.

Current scanning mechanics are just push a button, it has very little depth, it is shallow and does not take any effort on the part of the players. Same issue with CIG's golf swing mechanic. Now take EVE onlines scanning, it has depth, it takes skill to use and effort from the player. Crafting could be expanded as well, giving more options and more branches.

Well I disagree and let me explain. Every game has development focus. Some hardcore games like to have complex mechanisms to for you to turn knobs, do lot of quite useless tasks to get one final task done. Some people like that and they like to use word "depth" instead of "complex", because it sounds better.

In reality it is different focus. ED focus is not to make scanning complex, certainly at rude level. Scanning of the ship is very simple thing, yet in combat it is annoying and people already complain it takes time and they shoot and they get bounties.

It is my personal opinion that "depth" is really used against simplistic mechanisms because of "more sim like games" have it - games does not work really like that.

Current mission system is basic and does not have co-op missions, you could add depth to the mission system by adding co-op missions.

There's no depth in co-op missions, you just automatically share spoils of war with others.

Adding depth to the current base game would be expanding on the activities you done while piloting a ship. Sure FD added ground missions but again they ended up being shallow and needed expanding on.

They are not shallow, they are quite complex last time I tried. There are good reason why I haven't done them much yet.

Said all that - it does not mean gameplay does not have to get better in ED. It does, in multitudes, but I am afraid it won't be that 'depth' you are looking for. Moment by moment gameplay has to be interesting, engaging yet simple enough to make people play for considerable time, otherwise only hardcore will play ED.

edit: just for SC example all golf swing scanning is just pure example of there being strong disconnect between actual game being developed and people expecting it to be at hardcore level of EvE or even flight sims. It can't be all of those things. If they will want to earn money, scanning will be simple and you won't need 2 hour course to train for it.

 

[Skizomeuh]

Perfectionism, the good way:
[video=youtube_share;HTksBJeoa1A]https://youtu.be/HTksBJeoa1A[/video]
Nail the gameplay hard, even if in its most simplistic shape, then talently apply a mastered art direction. THIS is a masterpiece.

Perfectionism, the Chris way, is basically procrastination as business model.

 

[VidarSnipes]

[...]In reality it is different focus. ED focus is not to make scanning complex, certainly at rude level. Scanning of the ship is very simple thing, yet in combat it is annoying and people already complain it takes time and they shoot and they get bounties.

edit: just for SC example all golf swing scanning is just pure example of there being strong disconnect between actual game being developed and people expecting it to be at hardcore level of EvE or even flight sims. It can't be all of those things. If they will want to earn money, scanning will be simple and you won't need 2 hour course to train for it.

Ship scanning in EVE is on the same level of complexity as Elite's, and no one asks to make it more complicated in ED. System scanning on the other hand, is both quite simple and yet quite engaging, without (in my opinion) symptoms of minigameitis. You have a certain amount of probes with a spherical scanning pattern, though acquiring a signal requires at least four. If the target is inside the scanning radius of one of them, the target area is marked by a red sphere. If the target is inside the intersecting parts of two scanning probe spheres, you get a red circle, inside the intersection of three probes - two points, one of which is the real one. Dead simple, but quite rewarding, and it didn't get dull for a long time (unlike ME2's hacking/lockpicking minigames).

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Ship scanning in EVE is on the same level of complexity as Elite's, and no one asks to make it more complicated in ED. System scanning on the other hand, is both quite simple and yet quite engaging, without (in my opinion) symptoms of minigameitis. You have a certain amount of probes with a spherical scanning pattern, though acquiring a signal requires at least four. If the target is inside the scanning radius of one of them, the target area is marked by a red sphere. If the target is inside the intersecting parts of two scanning probe spheres, you get a red circle, inside the intersection of three probes - two points, one of which is the real one. Dead simple, but quite rewarding, and it didn't get dull for a long time (unlike ME2's hacking/lockpicking minigames).

Ohhh I agree that system scanning is something where FD did drop a ball. I hope it can be improved upon later on.

 

[1500]

Ohhh I agree that system scanning is something where FD did drop a ball. I hope it can be improved upon later on.

Oh sure, when someone else says it.

Going to go out on a limb and say you didn't know what EVE online scanning was or how mechanics in EVE online work. They are not that complex and are on the same level of usability as ED.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Oh sure, when someone else says it.

Going to go out on a limb and say you didn't know what EVE online scanning was or how mechanics in EVE online work. They are not that complex and are on the same level of usability as ED.

I think I thought your argument was about ship scanning, not system scanning. Anyway, we are going strongly offtopic Let's say we agree and disagree on different things about gameplay.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Ship scanning in EVE is on the same level of complexity as Elite's, and no one asks to make it more complicated in ED. System scanning on the other hand, is both quite simple and yet quite engaging, without (in my opinion) symptoms of minigameitis. You have a certain amount of probes with a spherical scanning pattern, though acquiring a signal requires at least four. If the target is inside the scanning radius of one of them, the target area is marked by a red sphere. If the target is inside the intersecting parts of two scanning probe spheres, you get a red circle, inside the intersection of three probes - two points, one of which is the real one. Dead simple, but quite rewarding, and it didn't get dull for a long time (unlike ME2's hacking/lockpicking minigames).

Out of curiosity, was system scanning already like that in EvE 1.0?

 

[Zyll Goliat]

Looks like DS solve the mistery of my ping improvements so I will quote his words from twitter....
DS:"Star Citizens, if your ping times have somewhat improved in 2.6, don't fret. you have a better connection to EC2 than GCE clusters"
So apparently CIG did start using the Amazon EC2............

 

[VidarSnipes]

Out of curiosity, was system scanning already like that in EvE 1.0?

I don't how it looked before Apocrypha expansion from 2009, as I started playing around that time, though I'm sure the earlier version (introduced in Revelations expansion in 2006) involved probes, too. Funnily enough, I've asked the same question some time ago in this forum's EVE thread.

 

[1500]

Seems like DS solve the mistery of my ping improvements so I will quote his words from twitter....
DS:"Star Citizens, if your ping times have somewhat improved in 2.6, don't fret. you have a better connection to EC2 than GCE clusters"
So apparently CIG did start using the Amazon EC2............

Well yes, that is what I said.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't how it looked before Apocrypha expansion from 2009, as I started playing around that time, though I'm sure the earlier version (introduced in Revelations expansion in 2006) involved probes, too. Funnily enough, I've asked the same question some time ago in this forum's EVE thread.

It was similar, but a real pain to use. The new version has taken over my brain so I have a hard to remembering what it was originally like.

 

[Zyll Goliat]

Well yes, that is what I said.

Well you didn´t been sure.....I also just guess....now seems like it is finally confirmed as some other ppl. had the very same experience.....

 

[Tippis]

It was similar, but a real pain to use. The new version has taken over my brain so I have a hard to remembering what it was originally like.

It used probes, and you had signal strengths, but that's about where the similarities stopped.

You had to get a probe close enough to the discovery to have the signal-strength/target-distance equation to spit out a favourable number, which was annoying for two reasons: you couldn't actually place probes — you either had to dump them in spots you could already access or you had to fart them out while whizzing across the system at 1,500c, going linearly point-to-point from places in the system you could use as warp targets — and the probe cycle was measured in double-digit minutes.

So the process was one of first picking a destination and warping there, bookmarking like crazy to create “perches” in space that you could use later (because no sensible signal would ever be found in line like this). Backtrack to a perch and repeat the process while warping to a different destination, creating completely off-grid perches. Do this enough to set up a decent-coverage grid across the system (with exploration it was easier since most sites were near planets that you could already warp to). That was just the set-up to make the system ready for probing.

Then you'd dump a deep space/multispectral probe to get a general read on the system — it had enough range to cover everything, but not enough strength to actually pinpoint any site. But at least now you know if there was anything to scan for in the system. If so, you'd fly around to your perches, dump low-range/high-strength probes, and hope that one of them were close enough to pick up the site or ship you're looking for. Then you'd press the “analyse” button and wait for, oh, a quarter of an hour or so for the results to come in… and maybe get a half-decent signal. Now you needed to actually get a good hit, so you'd use increasingly higher-strength/lower-range probes in each 10–15min cycle. Repeat until head injury occurs.

It was a very very very very bad system. Consequently, there were a lot of complaints when it was stabbed and sunk into a swamp, and replaced with some actual interactive gameplay.

 

[Zyll Goliat]

So much burn Seriously, why cultists do even want anyone to defend SM as a game?

PU footage in background mixes with "ohh shiny" with "jeez what a lag and placeholder effects which jumps out and bite you in eyeball".

No idea...I guess it´s kind of obsession for them,any critics to the SC are like someone poke them in the eye...I said honestly that aint all that bad with the SM as I seeing that as a good possible foundation for the future of the PU.....but I also get bored after few games....SM as a separate game is a mess and I totally agree with Bigfry on that +its lacking of content and its full of bugs and just can not be compared with any solid FPS out there......

 

[Osmanthus]

How am I lashing out? You are the one issuing personal attacks. And you continue to do so in this post. Not sure why you think it is ok to attack another poster.

Did you bother to read what Ben said? He actually said the switch did not happen. It was just a licence switch, and CIG are still using the same code they already were.

Then you should watch how aggressively you post and how easily you take offence from other posters.

E: to clarify, that is intended as advice and is in no way intended as an attack or insult.

 

[Helfix]

Actually yes. CCP gave up on it because it was taking too much time and they were letting the real game rot. And when the players found out they started to leave. Not that they could not get it to work, they ended up not even getting to that stage.

Simple it takes away massive development time from actually implementing gameplay, keeping the game stagnant and driving players away, same as what happened with EVE online. Kill is perhaps not really the right word as it is very hard to actually kill a game. But it could do some real harm to the playerbase.

It is not really about FD coming up with something, it just how much resources are they will to devote to it and can they implement gameplay to justify those resources.

FD will have to model every ship, then give you a reason to walk around.

Man this thread moves fast to keep up these days anyway....

No, CCP didn't give up on it because it was taking too much time. They gave up on it because while they were developing space legs, the next great thing, they let the game "rot" as you put it, well more like there were no changes, new features, balances or fixes coming to the game. The player base was content with that because "space legs". BUT here is the big whooper, when the space legs came out, it was extremely limited to a single room, that was it, they spent years and all resources developing this while they left the entire game at a standstill and the only thing the player base got was a single room, your personal room, within which you can walk and see your "avatar". Not only that, but they also introduced clothes, etc. avatar modifications and compared them to "$1000 Japanese RAW denim jeans" as value. Needless to say, there was a huge backlash from the community, as the game was at a standstill for a long time with a ton of bugs and issues while CCP spent resources on the space legs, which amounted to a single room. So yes, people quit in droves, so much so that it caused a ton of heads to roll at CCP and had big leadership changes. After that CCP got its ducks in a row and actually started concentrating on the game and fixing/balancing issues.

But I definitely agree with you if FD's version of space legs will be fun or just something for eyecandy. Even in SC it remains to be seen if space legs will be something fun or just eye candy. Like in SC I think a ton of Elite fans will be content with eye candy, at least going by all the feedback people post on the main forum section when it comes to game changes or "comfort features" to make stuff better.

 

[metatheurgist]

Even if they create more crew stations, I can't imagine them implementing anything more interesting, which is the same problem I predict FD will have with 2.3.

Yep, maybe FD will surprise but I can't see too much engaging gameplay coming out of multicrew. But I think that may not be the real purpose behind it. I think it's laying the ground work for the future FPS portion of the game. Getting multiple players in a limited setting, getting their code for that working, much like how we only got access to the "pill" before we got the bubble.

They did have planetary landings and surface vehicles, which I would call a fundamental addition, though it didn't amount to much in terms of engaging gameplay.

Again, I think this was more about getting the basics of planetary creation and landing right than it was about getting the full experience of planetary access.

 

[Smugallo]

my fear is that multicrew is just another addition to an already contrived game that ill probably never use. Thus far FDEV have released a number of updates since launch and i can sincerely say that none of them have grabbed my interest (powerplay wow, just remove that).

That said Elite has such a great foundation. It's flight model is so fun, great ships too pick and fly, combat is brilliant even if the larger ships fly around awkwardly trying to aim at you. I wish they would calm down a bit and ask themselves 'how can we improve the base game' or 'how can we de-clutter this thing'.

It's needlessly complex, even though the game itself is rather simple. I'd love atmospheric planets to explore, and to walk around and get out of my ship, this ontop of the base Elite game we have would be enough for me. All the rest doesn't really interest me.

 

[1500]

Then you should watch how aggressively you post and how easily you take offence from other posters.

E: to clarify, that is intended as advice and is in no way intended as an attack or insult.

I don't take offence, just pointing out that people use personal attacks. I find it interesting that you again go after my emotional state. What is up with that? I see your appology from before didn't mean anything. If it was advice you would have PM's me, instead you opted to do this in public, as such yes it is a personal attack and has been reported. Perhaps you should stick to the topic of SC and not go after other posters.

 

[DLewth]

Man this thread moves fast to keep up these days anyway....

No, CCP didn't give up on it because it was taking too much time. They gave up on it because while they were developing space legs, the next great thing, they let the game "rot" as you put it, well more like there were no changes, new features, balances or fixes coming to the game. The player base was content with that because "space legs". BUT here is the big whooper, when the space legs came out, it was extremely limited to a single room, that was it, they spent years and all resources developing this while they left the entire game at a standstill and the only thing the player base got was a single room, your personal room, within which you can walk and see your "avatar". Not only that, but they also introduced clothes, etc. avatar modifications and compared them to "$1000 Japanese RAW denim jeans" as value. Needless to say, there was a huge backlash from the community, as the game was at a standstill for a long time with a ton of bugs and issues while CCP spent resources on the space legs, which amounted to a single room. So yes, people quit in droves, so much so that it caused a ton of heads to roll at CCP and had big leadership changes. After that CCP got its ducks in a row and actually started concentrating on the game and fixing/balancing issues.

But I definitely agree with you if FD's version of space legs will be fun or just something for eyecandy. Even in SC it remains to be seen if space legs will be something fun or just eye candy. Like in SC I think a ton of Elite fans will be content with eye candy, at least going by all the feedback people post on the main forum section when it comes to game changes or "comfort features" to make stuff better.

This turned up somewhere a while back - either a reddit AMA or a livestream - and DB said that the hard bit wasn't the technology for space legs, but finding something fun to do with them. Since I don't want to do the "wake up in a pod and run to your ship" thing SC do, I'm OK with this.

 

[PhanttoM]

Depth in the context of a games is well known, perhaps you should look it up? It is no different then saying you want to see them flush out the current mechanics. But if you really don't understand what it means to have depth in a game, I will try to explain it to you.

Current scanning mechanics are just push a button, it has very little depth, it is shallow and does not take any effort on the part of the players. Same issue with CIG's golf swing mechanic. Now take EVE onlines scanning, it has depth, it takes skill to use and effort from the player. Crafting could be expanded as well, giving more options and more branches.

Current mission system is basic and does not have co-op missions, you could add depth to the mission system by adding co-op missions.

Adding depth to the current base game would be expanding on the activities you done while piloting a ship. Sure FD added ground missions but again they ended up being shallow and needed expanding on.

I believe what he was trying to say is that everybody has different idea of how far you take the depth — You might want EVE levels of depth, while I want Rogue System levels of depth.

Just saying the word depth and automatically expecting that everyone is talking about the same level, or even same part of the game (whether scanning or flight model) is counterproductive.



I personally have tons of problems with Elite's depth - Which does include the "press-button-to-scan" and "look-at-it-for-X-time"...it's the whole reason I've never gone on longrange exploration.