The Star Citizen Thread v5

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Why people insist being *in* games when they clearly don't want to *play* those games?

You're asking the wrong question... or at least, your question is based on an incorrect assumption.

Some people want to fly a Python, and do things that are best done in a Python. They want to do that for 2-3 years. That does NOT mean that they enjoy spending 2-4 weeks (or months, depending on your playstyle) dragging cargo between 2 stations, or shooting another 45 mindless NPCs in yet-another-RES that has no real impact on the game at all.

My current car is far better than my first car. It's faster, sleeker, better handling. I enjoy driving it, travelling in it, doing fun things in it. But that doesn't mean the 1200 hours I spent behind a desk was "part of the enjoyment" or whatever. The job was a means to GET the car, not part of the joy of ownership.

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o_O

No. I said nothing about that, and it's completely irrelevant to Interactive Mode and my point.

Fair enough. Maybe it's a language barrier... or, you're just using terms I'm completely unfamiliar with, and thus I can't follow your points.

Certainly Elite has a good flight model, no argument there. But SC has improved of late, and I think it will continue to do so.
 
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But SC has improved of late, and I think it will continue to do so.

Yep, it has improved from being an absolute garbage to a lesser of garbage, for a basic feature that needed to be nailed from the beginning.
I guess that's what they call "improvement" nowadays?
 
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Yep, it has improved from being an absolute garbage for a basic feature that needed to be nailed from the beginning.

I'm sorry that SC didn't meet your complete expectations from the moment development started. Perhaps the release version will. :)
 
Whatever SC is doing or not doing with the flight model, I don't think it's in a position where you could compare it favorably to Elite. I don't understand Adept on the virtual joystick thing, all I can say is that Elite feels right, it did from the first time I flew it in 2014. Star Citizen feels wrong, it did since the first time I flew it in 2015 (2016 maybe? I'm not sure exactly) and Star a citizen needs to put some goddamned focus on that because, from what I understood, it's what the game is about.

I poked around on Reddit a bit today and saw something about Mustang Alpha still needing to use "Phantom Thrusters" and that explains what I experienced. Maybe mass is poorly defined for that ship, and the others are in a better spot. I'll bear it in mind next free play.

Nailed it - even the "new and improved" flight model in SC still feels wrong to me, and the Elite one felt right since the first time I hopped on a Sidey - difficult, but right. And now over a thousand hours later, after discovering FA off and the different flight models of all the various ships, it still feels "right". I wouldn't be able to put it in words and it's really dumb because I've never flown a real airplane let alone a spacecraft, but FDev has figured out how to make it work like I think it should.
 
I'm sorry that SC didn't meet your complete expectations from the moment development started. Perhaps the release version will. :)

You don't need to apologize for the incompetent team.
I just hope I'll be alive to witness that "release" version :)
 
I'm sorry that SC didn't meet your complete expectations from the moment development started. Perhaps the release version will. :)

A good flight model (like VR support) can't be added in later on.

Take SQ42 as an example, without a finalized flight model no real work can be done on the missions. Changing top speed, maneuvering speed, turn times pretty much anything flight related will alter interception times, TTK, basic ship capability completely altering any mission balance in terms of starting positions numbers and spawn times. They've either gone as far as they can go with the sub-standard FM and are now stuck with it, or SQ42 consists of cut-scenes and a few written outlines with no real work having been done yet.

Unless they are altering the FM after having worked on the missions, and subsequently have to completely re-balance everything with every change wasting a tremendous amount of time and resources.

Hang on this is CIG they are definitely going to be doing it the second way.
 
Really? You mean the way that Frontier hasn't changed various aspects of how ships fly, how much they weigh, drift, top speed, boost speed, etc. since 1.0?

Why would they? They nailed it during their closed internal testing, even before the first Alpha. When it got out, people were thrilled with it. They did tweak some things later, but the overall feeling was intact.
 
Really? You mean the way that Frontier hasn't changed various aspects of how ships fly, how much they weigh, drift, top speed, boost speed, etc. since 1.0?

Some of those changes have had major knock-on consequences for ships and ship builds. People sell the ships or leave them abandoned. Those are pretty major changes and come with a lot of debate and discussion, right?
And they do have that sort of effect on the missions. The missions are easier to complete, we can stack 20 CZ missions go into a combat zone and tear everything that comes at us to shreds. That was a lot harder to do before the engineers updates right? Now imagine that instead of those procedurally generated CZ missions, we only had a total of 20 missions that you could do… And that was the game. Each of those 20 missions is handcrafted with a set of parameters that the player is expected to conform to, i.e. ship size, fire power, things like that. An update like engineers would make that game… Irrelevant.

Not every game needs VR support… But a spaceflight game needs decent working flight mechanics. I don't honestly think it's all doom and gloom, I think it's fixable… I just don't understand why they haven't fixed it yet. Why can we buy hats and jackets and pants, but when we get into the spaceship that's the core of the game… It's like it hasn't been touched yet

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Why would they? They nailed it during their closed internal testing, even before the first Alpha. When it got out, people were thrilled with it. They did tweak some things later, but the overall feeling was intact.

Ha ha. For the python, the community had to get out the doll and asked where the bad man touched it.
 
Really? You mean the way that Frontier hasn't changed various aspects of how ships fly, how much they weigh, drift, top speed, boost speed, etc. since 1.0?

Deflecting with a dishonest attack on ED again.

SQ42 is either in the very early stages of being hacked together or the flight model you are making excuses for as a work in progress is all you're ever going to get.

So much for the BDSSE.
 
Deflecting with a dishonest attack on ED again.

I'm not deflecting, and I'm not attacking Elite, Stig.

I'm pointing out that contrary to what you stated, you CAN change the flight model of ships and not have the game fail. It was done with Elite. And it worked.
 
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I'm not deflecting, and I'm not attacking Elite, Stig.

I'm pointing out that contrary to what you stated, you CAN change the flight model of ships and not have the game fail. It was done with Elite. And it worked.

The problem is that Elite isn't SQ42.

It is certainly possible to change the flight model and make it better in Elite and SC.

But everything else associated with that flight model also changes. In a game like ED or SC...that might not mean so much.

In a game like SQ42, it means the entire game was developed and balanced and designed around a flight model that CIG now consider...for a variety of reasons...flawed.

They can choose to keep the game as is, and keep the flawed flight model
Or they can rebalance the missions around the new flight model
...meaning a lot of work to be redone.
 
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I'm not deflecting, and I'm not attacking Elite, Stig.

I'm pointing out that contrary to what you stated, you CAN change the flight model of ships and not have the game fail. It was done with Elite. And it worked.

If you have a defined flight model and then for a specific ship you say "Nope, the pitch rate on this one is too good, the top speed and boost speed need to come down 5%", it doesn't alter the flight model overall.

It only changes how that one ship performs against the other 20-odd.

The challenge I have found with watching any SC flight video, is that for some reason (showing off the precious things from the shop, perhaps?) they are obsessed with flying in external view. This makes all the ships look like Airfix models being flown round the garden in the hand of a 10yr old kid.
There is no inertia on take-off, they simply leap off the landing dock into the air with no apparent acceleration or deceleration.

Maybe this is one of the various flight modes and it would look different in decoupled?
 
Well, saying on par with CR's vision is almost as saying the game will never be out. You can chase perfection for only so long before you run out of funds. CR has created some great games in the past that have sold millions of copies, but at same time, he also had somebody who was the final say other than himself. Freelancer comes to mind with him as the final say. The money train will only go as far as CIG is making great progress/showcasing it. Recently there have definitely been some big shake ups in the backer base with the citizencon + anniversary stream debacles.

Well the "game" is already out and getting upgrades, and this will continue as long as the community likes what they see. Since they started in 2012 every year is better than the last with 2016 as the best year yet, the project keeps gaining more and more momentum, not staling like usually happens with Early Access games. Loud fuss from vocal minorities are not debacles lol , it's the internet being the internet.

CIG's problem is and always will be that they are a brand new studio. They started with 11 people at end of 2012 and are now with what, 350 CIG + 150 contractors, at start of 2017? It takes massive effort to make an operation such as that run smooth on top of creating two games at once. Their resources have been split up from the start, not to mention they have a very complex game they have to develop as their first one.

They might be a brand new studio but they are filled with plenty of experienced industry dev's, their main hurdle is the fact that they are not afraid to push tech and try ambitious things. A good example of that is the effort they are putting into making the ships in both scale and detail. Yes it is a massive operation and that's why they deserve all our support and backing. They are delivering their word by using our money to do the best game possible no holds barred.

With current state of the PU and the feature list they talked about, number of systems etc. they probably have a solid 18 months of development left, if not more, that is just for the PU. Then take into consideration that the SQ42 game is also being developed, which we don't know much about except its been grey box or higher detail. It could very well be that a lot of the resources have been going into SQ 42 to get it out doors and then have everyone pile up on the PU. The only downside to all of this is that time is the only thing that will tell if this project will fail or not.

The have left whatever time they need to make things right in their own terms. Squadron 42 and Star Citizen share a lot of assets and mechanics , the reason we have shopping in the PU was because they had to model a bunch of cloths to dress Squadron 42 npc's, the reason we only still have combat is because that was the priority needed for Squadron 42. Same with ship's military ship's like the Gladius, Sabre, Hornet are more polished than other's.

We have four outcomes:

1). They run out of money to finish the two games
2). They deliver two bad games
3). They deliver two mediocre games
3). They deliver two good games

The only clear thing to me that came out from this project is that CR and company massively underestimated delivery times or lied. Why do I say this? Because just look at Elite's development, it cost them $16-20 million to come out with the base game back in Dec 2014. While CIG on the other hand promised, first person, walking, multi-crew, 100+ highly detailed systems etc. There was no way they could of delivered the game, even with its initial scope quality. Not just because of not enough funds but because they would of lost a ton of development time ramping up. Also look at the Iifonic debacle as well on how the FPS ended up.

1). Money has been increasing with every year and it's only the tip actually. Plenty of more money to be made from the mainstream/casual community.

2/3/3). Good/Mediocre/Bad is subjective has it will be based on the expectations of each one.

Chris Roberts has Carte Blanche to do whatever he feels it's better for the game, he earned that right by maintaining it's focus on delivering the best game possible no matter the delays or "re-factorings"...

Impatient gamers could just go on with their lifes I guess, play something else, there's plenty of good games out there and wait for the release in the sidelines like they would normally do with other games. Following the project 24/7 impatiently asking "are we there yet" seems highly frustrating, much better to just have a nap and "wake me up when it's done" attitude. :D

Of course it's something to brag about. It's not easy to do, and harder still to do well, which is why CIG has been trying to brag about the size of their universe. Even if there's nothing in it, just the ability to actually deliver that kind of staggeringly huge world is an impressive technical feet in and of itself. Hence why they dialled back that bragging in favour of this new “denser is better” narrative when it became clear that such a technical challenge was simply beyond them.

The "denser is better" as allways been Chris Roberts moto, he never wanted to achieve scientific fidelity of solar system sizes. He's more interested in narrative and creating breathing living universes than pg realistic galaxy's.

They're not keeping big corporates in check, though. Jim is arguing against the current trend of open-world collectathons that have become the go-to standard for “big content” games; TB is arguing against the unsubstantiated hype that companies promote around unreleased games, with the help of a profoundly unsound community culture surrounding those games. The size of the world is just one of those meaningless points that the hypemongers love to bang on about, especially when they have no idea how it will actually play out in the final game yet. This should sound familiar to you, because everything he said over footage of NMS could have been said over footage of SC, and to argue that these are both the same kind of “big corporate” companies is downright silly.
TB was taking a stand against consumers, you get that, right? Specifically, people who evangelise; who are culpable in deceiving others using second-hand PR; who are wilfully participating in spreading hype and defending the inherently untrustworthy marketing that companies put out. This, too, should sound familiar to you.

Jim and TB constantly call out the big corporate game company's constantly for their bad practices , and they have quite the following for that reason alone.

I don't see what NMS has in common with Star Citizen besides the Space/Science Fiction setting I really dont.
NMS had no public alpha or beta testing, was hyped and showed but not played by the gaming community. Small Inexperienced team vs Big and Experienced team. Console focused, Sony has a publisher etc etc.

Everything about Star Citizen gameplay is open to test by anyone willing to, they have free-weeks constantly remember? [rolleyes]
Youtube, Twitch Streamers, anyone can check if the game is interesting or not for them and if it's worth their money.
Fortunately it seems that a lot of people is found of Chris Roberts idea of making this huge sci-fi universe where you can play many roles or even the idea of playing the spiritual sucessor of Wing Commander.

In this day's of youtube/streaming I hardly believe anyone would buy a game because of the opinion of forum posting alone lol

There still seems to be and obscure trend in some of the posters here that feel angry when someone show's any signs of being happy and enthusiastic about the Star Citizen game in it's own thread lol. I find that the normal thing to do, it's the other way around that I find odd. ;) [up]

It's not like we can't like all of the same things right!? Has much as someone seem to wish to see the fall of Star Citizen it's not by attacking and trying to shut down people that love the game that will make it more "real".

People can cover their ears all while whispering "ds was right" for 90 days hoping that "this year will finally be when SC collapses" but deeply they know that what they will get is just another combined failed predictions by "retired indie dev's", "armchair dev's", "leaker's" that will once again whistle to the side trying to justify the time wasted being negative for being negative, cynicism for the sake of being cynic fuelled by the basic obscure motives like envy, fear, ignorance or trolling.

In the end nothing of that really matters in the great scheme of things. The development of Star Citizen keeps on going with hundreds of new players keep joining everyday in and the money keeps on rolling. Good times ahead for this buggy tech demo! :D
 
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The "denser is better" as allways been Chris Roberts moto, he never wanted to achieve scientific fidelity of solar system sizes. He's more interested in narrative and creating breathing living universes than pg realistic galaxy's.
…and yet, from the very start, the bragging has been about the size of the universe. It's (very incompetently) on their front page as we speak. They even went on about using PG to make the world even larger for a stretch, when they were in the “must beat ED and NMS” mode of one-upmanship, which ended with NMS proving that it wasn't all it was cracked up to be. Only then, and only when it started to become clear how very tiny the promised world would or indeed could be, due to the technical hurdles, did density become a selling point again.

Jim and TB constantly call out the big corporate game company's constantly for their bad practices , and they have quite the following for that reason alone.

I don't see what NMS has in common with Star Citizen besides the Space/Science Fiction genre I really dont.
You should probably watch TB's video, then. It's to the point and very clear on the matter.

And whatever they may usually say on the topic of game companies, it wasn't actually the topic of the videos we're talking about here — that's just a fact. One was about how the generic is generic; the other was about how consumers have become anti-consumer. Both apply just as well to SC as they do to the specific examples used in the respective videos. Take particular note of how he utterly demolishes the utterly nonsensical notion that it has anything to do with cynicism or envy or ignorance or any of the other uninformed platitudes that the hyper mongers are so fond of bandying about to try to defend or justify their anti-consumerist spiel.

In this day's of youtube/streaming I hardly believe anyone would buy a game because of the opinion of forum posting alone lol
What you believe doesn't matter. What matters is that enough people believe it to use those channels to evangelise; to trick other people; to wilfully spread untrustworthy nonsense; and, based on the same logic that what is said on forums matters, to harass, threaten, and attack anyone who disagrees with or comments on all of the above.
 
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Everything about Star Citizen game play is open to test by anyone willing to, they have free-weeks constantly remember? [rolleyes]
Youtube, Twitch Streamers, anyone can check if the game is interesting or not for them and if it's worth their money.
Fortunately it seems that a lot of people is found of Chris Roberts idea of making this huge sci-fi universe where you can play many roles or even the idea of playing the spiritual successor of Wing Commander.

So as a backer I have access to every single iteration of the alpha that comes out? Why are there tiers of access to the alpha when a new version comes out? I have a lovely golden ticket, shouldn't that let me into the inner workings? Nope, I have to pay a concierge fee to gain access to that on top of having to buy all the ships so I can properly test out the alpha. It's a interesting business model I'll give you that, but the product will suffer if things aren't tested.

Do I have access to spawn all ships? Or do I have to sneak aboard wait for the poor guy jump away from the station and double tap his head, then fly around for a few minutes before he despawns the ship?


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A little while ago some people were talking about the pay to win aspect of this game. Specify they said they wanted to skip the grind. There's a huge list of problems that brings along, but I have yet to hear about new ships that CIG is continuously pumping out that is making $60+ ships old news. Is that a good thing? They promise a top of the line fighter, and 6 months later something even better replaces it. Do you just melt the obsolete ship and upgrade? Or grumble a little and buy this new wonder ship for cash?

What happens when the game releases and they stop anything from being melted or transferring LTI even if you can melt it? We keep hearing "buy buy buy! These are rock bottom prices!", and yet we have no idea what these ships are worth in the game.

I should probably stop here. Just my two worthless cents.
 
…and yet, from the very start, the bragging has been about the size of the universe. It's (very incompetently) on their front page as we speak. They even went on about using PG to make the world even larger for a stretch, when they were in the “must beat ED and NMS” mode of one-upmanship, which ended with NMS proving that it wasn't all it was cracked up to be. Only then, and only when it started to become clear how very tiny the promised world would or indeed could be, due to the technical hurdles, did density become a selling point again.

Humm nop, wrong, Star Citizen strength was never about the size of it's world. Actually it was allways about highly detailed and immersive areas but limited in size to explore due to the CryEngine limitations at the start of the project.
That's why seamless planetary landings were off the grid from the early days and only really gained momentum when the crytek magicians joined the party and worked the engine enough to allow for big maps and such.

The fact that they are proud of having big seamless maps doesn't mean they will ditch the curated hand made high fidelity moto as they showcased clearly in both the Gamescon and Citizencon demos of last year.


You keep bringing NMS or ED when their gaming concept is totally different from the Star Citizen one. Both NMS and ED rely heavily on PG assets to populate their gameplay area and while their efforts pushed PG it still feels lacking in terms of the traditional AAA+ narrative driven gameplay engagements with more curated gameplay. This is because both NMS and ED use the space in their own specific way to cater to their main type of gameplay.

You should probably watch TB's video, then. It's to the point and very clear on the matter.

And whatever they may usually say on the topic of game companies, it wasn't actually the topic of the videos we're talking about here — that's just a fact. One was about how the generic is generic; the other was about how consumers have become anti-consumer. Both apply just as well to SC as they do to the specific examples used in the respective videos. Take particular note of how he utterly demolishes the utterly nonsensical notion that it has anything to do with cynicism or envy or ignorance or any of the other uninformed platitudes that the hyper mongers are so fond of bandying about to try to defend or justify their anti-consumerist spiel.

Yeah I've seen that, I think he his talking about gamers has consumers in general not goons/trolls engaging in hate campaigns that aim to undermine a game development project for petty reasons, going as far as attacking it's developers, fan base and supporters by all means, that includes, doxing, harassment, lying, deceit and collusion with several shady immoral individuals that aim for "vindication" by bringing the project down.

What you believe doesn't matter. What matters is that enough people believe it to use those channels to evangelise; to trick other people; to wilfully spread untrustworthy nonsense; and, based on the same logic that what is said on forums matters, to harass, threaten, and attack anyone who disagrees with or comments on all of the above.

It matters to the only one that matters to me :D , me.

You may be rustled that I like posting stuff about something you dislike (for whatever reasons), it's ok really, but please dont bring on the deceptions and ofuscations lol the only people here using trickery to try and fool other people into believing stuff are well known and documented ;)
You might be forgotten how several lies from the goon party that ended up camping here were already debunked, from edited video-clips that try to portray the game more broken than it is (seriously, it doesn't need that) or simply spreading lies like Star Marine not being in evocati testing lol. Just to name a few.

Keeping up with the pilgrimage through the road-to-ELE preaching smart chants about "collapses" sure will work, someday. Maybe wishing for big revelations like CIG being sued by Adobe, AutoDesk or maybe Amazon (lol) for copyright infringement could work, somehow. [squeeeee]

So as a backer I have access to every single iteration of the alpha that comes out? Why are there tiers of access to the alpha when a new version comes out? I have a lovely golden ticket, shouldn't that let me into the inner workings? Nope, I have to pay a concierge fee to gain access to that on top of having to buy all the ships so I can properly test out the alpha. It's a interesting business model I'll give you that, but the product will suffer if things aren't tested.

Do I have access to spawn all ships? Or do I have to sneak aboard wait for the poor guy jump away from the station and double tap his head, then fly around for a few minutes before he despawns the ship?

As a backer you have access to the Public Alpha build, if you like testing you can join the Private Test Universe Alpha build to help development and report bugs, if you report bugs in a meaningful way long enough you can be called upon to join the Evocati Test Group and have access to the very early iterations of the public builds and help squash bugs/glitches/crashes and most likely download 100+'s gigs of builds in a week lol.

You can fly most of the ships, buy weapons/shields etc without spending a penny by renting them with ingame credits or better ask in chat for someone to let you try some ships, might even make an ingame friend for life!

A little while ago some people were talking about the pay to win aspect of this game. Specify they said they wanted to skip the grind. There's a huge list of problems that brings along, but I have yet to hear about new ships that CIG is continuously pumping out that is making $60+ ships old news. Is that a good thing? They promise a top of the line fighter, and 6 months later something even better replaces it. Do you just melt the obsolete ship and upgrade? Or grumble a little and buy this new wonder ship for cash?

What happens when the game releases and they stop anything from being melted or transferring LTI even if you can melt it? We keep hearing "buy buy buy! These are rock bottom prices!", and yet we have no idea what these ships are worth in the game.

I should probably stop here. Just my two worthless cents.

The ships are worth what you feel they are worth, nobody forces you to buy anything, not even the game package.
The game is in active alpha development stage, there is no win except make your own fun with what's available, if you can't have fun with what's available step back and come back after the next big update and try it again. My 2cents.
 
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So as a backer I have access to every single iteration of the alpha that comes out?

Well, that depends on whether or not you get an invite to the PTU. CIG knows (just as every other software company) that there is a limit to the amount of testers you need. 1 tester isn't enough. 100 is good. 100,000 is far too many to sort through.

As far as getting an invite, you don't have to be a subscriber, nor pay some sort of concierge fee. I got an invite, and haven't done either of those things. (I also didn't activate the invite, as I've no time to dedicate to thorough testing and reporting.)

A little while ago some people were talking about the pay to win aspect of this game. Specify they said they wanted to skip the grind.

I mentioned that earlier today, yep.

Do you just melt the obsolete ship and upgrade? Or grumble a little and buy this new wonder ship for cash?

There's also option c: some people just keep flying the ship they own.
 
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