The Star Citizen Thread v5

[Sunleader]

The similarity is that both require investment, and neither promises a return nor profit.

Both do offer a gain: the market offers cash, the game offers an experience... again, different offers, but both are based upon success after investment.



That's sort of a gratuitous argument; we all know what logic says about such things.

Exactly.

Not all Investments are based on making Monetary Profit.
In my case I invest alot of Money into Games.
This is not Money I Invest to get more Money out of it.
Its Money that I invest to spend less time Grinding and more Time having Fun.

I am working alot. And I generally got more Money on my Hands than I got time.

Pay2Comfort is usually the Key to People like me.
We dont have Time. So we spend some Money to Finance the Game and have Fun.


In Kickstarter Game Projects. People dont Invest to get Money out of it.
For them the Investment will Pay off if they get a Game out of it that they consider Fun.


The Target of this Investment is to Create a Game that wasnt there before and which otherwise might not appear on the Market for you to Play.
In my case for example. If I found an Developer who could Convince me that he is able to Produce an Halfwat Realistic Naval Forces Simulation which in Realism Contests Silent Hunter on Realistic Settings but works with Surface Ships and as Massive Multiplayer.
Then you could take Bets I would Invest some Money into that.
Because currently something like that does not exist.



Also.
Well I dont Intend to Sell my Ship.
See.
I Bought a Car which is very very Nice. And a Ton of People like it.
This also means that this Car for which I paid 25.000 Euro will not be Worth much later. Because alot of these Cars will be on the Market for used Cars.
So Selling it with any kind of Profit or even an halfwat return for the Next Car is Impossible.

I know from the Start that the Prize for this Car will Plummet


But thats the Thing.
I dont Buy this Car to Sell it Later. If I wanted to Drive Cheaply I would have Bought an Used Cheap Car to begin with.
I bought it because I like to Drive it
Why should I care what Prize People are Willing to Pay for it later ?

The Same goes for my Ship in SC.
I will Fly my Ship. Not Sell it. So i dont really care if its Prize Drops later on



Its possible that Ships in SC Drop in Prizes.
It Depends on the Systems they use.
If Stolen Ships for Example are Possible to be used. But will make you Hunted with Authorities etc. You can assume my Ship will be a Pretty high Prize even later on.
As the Ship will be Available for Ingame Money. Its likely that it will Drop in its Prize the longer the Game Runs.
At Start the Ship will likely be worth a Fortune actually. Because the Package cant be bought anymore. And getting it Ingame will likely Require a long time Playing.
But even here I wont sell it.
Later when People have Established Accounts and know their Ways around to get Money and are Bigger themselves thus making Money more Available. The Prizes for such Ships will likely Drop

We will See

 

[Cotic]

Exactly.

Not all Investments are based on making Monetary Profit.
In my case I invest alot of Money into Games.
This is not Money I Invest to get more Money out of it.
Its Money that I invest to spend less time Grinding and more Time having Fun.

I am working alot. And I generally got more Money on my Hands than I got time.

Pay2Comfort is usually the Key to People like me.
We dont have Time. So we spend some Money to Finance the Game and have Fun.

AKA a "weekend wallet warrior"

The trouble with wallet warriors is they choose to remain ignorant of the effect they have on games for people that don't pay (or can't pay).
They feel their real world affluency is a sign of their superiority and therefore they are entitled to everything the game offers despite not having the time to earn it in game. They feel that 200 hours to earn a ship is perfectly acceptable because they haven't had to earn it and it gives more value to their purchases.

Personally I think these people are extremely egocentric and insecure, their 'philanthropy' is just a mask for how much they hate the idea of being left behind in games, "I deserve better god dammit, I earn $200,000 p/yr. you should be catering to me not the average gamer!!"

You guys are a true blight on gaming. Hopefully CR rues the day he catered to these people.

 

[thorn-]

They feel their real world affluency is a sign of their superiority and therefore they are entitled to everything the game offers despite not having the time to earn it in game. They feel that 200 hours to earn a ship is perfectly acceptable because they haven't had to earn it and it gives more value to their purchases.

A new player starts the game, and is given something like a Sidewinder. All the other vets in the system have Vultures, Pythons, etc.

How is this new player more disadvantaged, if the others players got their ships by grinding vs a cash purchase?

 

[milligna]

Lucas accused of plagiarism? If anything he was the one excited to tell us how it was riffing on Kurosawa. Then of course he got on the Campbell bandwagon and loved droning on about it. Nobody ever accused George Lucas of being a brilliant writer, tho -- then again, nobody ever even bothered to call Chris Roberts a writer. Comparing a 90s VGA hasbeen without a single box office hit to an idiosyncratic empire builder with a stake in many of the biggest films of all time is amusing, tho.

CIG appropriating "'verse" comes off as awkward and tacky as their lame Douglas Adams nicking. Talk about utterly hamfisted and unsuited to their gaudy style! You couldn't get any further from Adams than that dopey Top Gun vibe utterly ignoring science.

 

[Cotic]

A new player starts the game, and is given something like a Sidewinder. All the other vets in the system have Vultures, Pythons, etc.

How is this new player more disadvantaged, if the others players got their ships by grinding vs a cash purchase?

Whether they are disadvantaged or not is irrelvant. In game status and capabilities should be increased by in game actions, you should not be able to increase your in game status or capabilities by dint of real world actions.

 

[Stigbob]

Wasn't it Braben's answer to a question in a podcast?

You tell me, THE LIST is sourced.

And Lucas was accused of plagiarism when he wrote Star Wars. Who really cares, beyond those looking for another item to add to a bullet list?

He took story elements from old black and white movies one of them the seven samurai which even has two bickering comic relief serfs who go out to seek help one short and fat one tall and thin (R2D2 and C3PO). He had the decency to alter and add one hell of a lot of things of his own though so it wasn't a comparably straight up bit of pinching.

Anyway whats George Lucas got to do with THE LIST ?, don't tell me the next ship sale is a death star, although after the sandworm I wouldn't be surprised. If you want to compare Chris Roberts to other hollywood people I'd start with Ed Wood and work downwards (don't mention Kostner).

 

[milligna]

He took story elements from old black and white movies one of them the seven samurai which even has two bickering comic relief serfs who go out to seek help one short and fat one tall and thin (R2D2 and C3PO). He had the decency to alter and add one hell of a lot of things of his own though so it wasn't a comparably straight up bit of pinching.

"Hidden Fortress." Which of course is nothing like Star Wars on many many levels even if you squint. It was just a convenient structure for a novice writer to use.

Ed Wood was a much better filmmaker. "Night of the Ghouls" and "Bride of the Monster" are way more fun than "Wing Commander: The Movie."

 

[thorn-]

Whether they are disadvantaged or not is irrelvant.

Then what's the relevance?

In game status and capabilities should be increased by in game actions, you should not be able to increase your in game status or capabilities by dint of real world actions.

Wasn't it a couple weeks ago that a Volunteer Mod here made a billion in a week, stacking missions? He had enough for a large ship at that point.

What's the utter difference - IN THE GAME - if I just write CIG a check for $200 and buy one?

We both have a "Vette" now. So what?

You'll be able to grind a ship in SC when it's released, and I believe cash sales will stop at that point as well. So in the end, you'll see the playbase settling on this matter and gameplay will be fine... just as the Testers in Elite kept all their ships when 1.0 was finally released, while newbies had to start with Eagles.

 

[Stigbob]

"Hidden Fortress." Which of course is nothing like Star Wars on many many levels even if you squint. It was just a convenient structure for a novice writer to use.

Ed Wood was a much better filmmaker. "Night of the Ghouls" and "Bride of the Monster" are way more fun than "Wing Commander: The Movie."

You are right have rep. Obviously time for me to re-watch a load of classics.

Note for SC fans, what you've just seen is somebody being wrong on the internet and being happy about being corrected. As you can see it's really not a big deal.

 

[Tuub t Tute]

Then what's the relevance?



Wasn't it a couple weeks ago that a Volunteer Mod here made a billion in a week, stacking missions? He had enough for a large ship at that point.

What's the utter difference - IN THE GAME - if I just write CIG a check for $200 and buy one?

We both have a "Vette" now. So what?

You'll be able to grind a ship in SC when it's released, and I believe cash sales will stop at that point as well. So in the end, you'll see the playbase settling on this matter and gameplay will be fine... just as the Testers in Elite kept all their ships when 1.0 was finally released, while newbies had to start with Eagles.

2 years after release, a seasoned CMDR decides to experiment and see if it is possible to grind a big pile using a well known game mechanic and near drives himself crazy in the process?

As relevance seems to be the new touchstone, how is that relevant to a launch day experience of a $45 starter account against someone with dollar bought hardware? After 2 years, the playing field may well be level, not on day, week or month 1 (in my opinion)

 

[Faybs]

Here we go, a perfect example of SC being good for ED. May they enjoy it so much they make it their permanent home

https://www.twitch.tv/kinmob/v/111742193

 

[Cotic]

Wasn't it a couple weeks ago that a Volunteer Mod here made a billion in a week, stacking missions? He had enough for a large ship at that point.

Yes and as bad as mission stacking and mode switching are, at least he had to partake in the actual gameplay.

What's the utter difference - IN THE GAME - if I just write CIG a check for $200 and buy one?

The difference is that you have not earned it, you haven't done the missions, you haven't built the reputation, you haven't had the losses, you haven't had to put any time in. You've decided to skip gameplay that everyone else has to partake in just so that you can get the end reward.

And besides, where do you stop with this line of thinking? Once you make allowances with regards to cash for items then anything and everything becomes acceptable, "Hurr durr it doesn't matter because you can earn it in the game..."

 

[thorn-]

Yes and as bad as mission stacking and mode switching are, at least he had to partake in the actual gameplay.

And how impressive that was.

The difference is that you have not earned it

I would submit that HE really didn't "earn" anything. Nor prove anything, except that he's rather patient. Or a masochist.

If there were actually - you know - skilled tasked involved, sure. You've earned it. But if you "earning something" accounted for just jumping to Sag A, pressing HONK about 3000 times for 3 weeks- yeah, whatever. I'll just write a check.

 

[Adept]

On "ship chasing aiming cursor" - can you expound on that a bit? That's exactly what I do in Elite - chase the target with the reticle. (Which isn't a criticism... I just don't know what sort of more 'proper' method you're hoping for.)

What happens in Elite is the classic virtual joystick. In SC the virtual joystick is very poorly implemented (with a weird square control area, which turns into a sort of feminine protection shape if you have a wide screen monitor), but with fixed weapons it's still essentially a v-joy. When you have gimbaled weapons and are using the mouse, you are using "Interactive Mode", which means that the guns track the v-joy cursor with essentially zero delay and no inaccuracy. The v-joy also gains a huge aim-only dead zone.

The result of IM is that you shoot at enemy ships like you were using a point & click shooter interface, and the ship automatically turns towards the target if it's far enough from the centre of the screen. This is essentially the Freelancer control method, and company representatives (most notably Ben Lesnick) promised us that it wouldn't be the game. The one "where the guns follow the cursor".

It's a real albatross around the game's neck, and it's probably there to mask the shallow flight model and to appeal to players who only ever play mouse shooters.

 

[thorn-]

What happens in Elite is the classic virtual joystick.

Are you basically saying that Elite relies on pitch and roll (while yaw was nerfed), and SC allows all 3?

 

[Cotic]

I would submit that HE really didn't "earn" anything. Nor prove anything, except that he's rather patient. Or a masochist.

Regardless, he was still playing the game, he had to go through the activities, there was in-game time involved, there was a possibilty of losses etc

If there were actually - you know - skilled tasked involved, sure. You've earned it.

How can you say this when you're talking about paying for in-game goods with real life money? Do you not think it's a bit ironic to complain about a lack of skilled tasks in one game while then going and buying $400 spaceships in another?

But if you "earning something" accounted for just jumping to Sag A, pressing HONK about 3000 times for 3 weeks- yeah, whatever. I'll just write a check.

So laziness then, glad we cleared that up

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Why people insist being *in* games when they clearly don't want to *play* those games?

Question for both grinders AND those who buy "progress".

 

[CmdrKull]

Are you basically saying that Elite relies on pitch and roll (while yaw was nerfed), and SC allows all 3?

Whatever SC is doing or not doing with the flight model, I don't think it's in a position where you could compare it favorably to Elite. I don't understand Adept on the virtual joystick thing, all I can say is that Elite feels right, it did from the first time I flew it in 2014. Star Citizen feels wrong, it did since the first time I flew it in 2015 (2016 maybe? I'm not sure exactly) and Star a citizen needs to put some goddamned focus on that because, from what I understood, it's what the game is about.

I poked around on Reddit a bit today and saw something about Mustang Alpha still needing to use "Phantom Thrusters" and that explains what I experienced. Maybe mass is poorly defined for that ship, and the others are in a better spot. I'll bear it in mind next free play.

 

[Adept]

Are you basically saying that Elite relies on pitch and roll (while yaw was nerfed), and SC allows all 3?

No. I said nothing about that, and it's completely irrelevant to Interactive Mode and my point. The awful part is the aim-layer used for zero order control of gimbaled weapons. It only really works with a mouse, and means mouse / joystick / gamepad can't be equally viable ways to play the game. It also makes gunnery trivially simple, so ship movement has to be twitchy so there is any chance to "dodge" any incoming fire. Interactive mode is something you find in space shooters, not space sims.

 

[Earthshine]

Spoiler

1.
Well why Should they
Why should anyone here listen to you or anyone else by the way
After all we aint Providing Evidence for anything we say here Right

See Mate your right now making an Grand Example of this.
You felt attacked by my Statement. You immediately decided hey this Guy is the Enemy he wants me Dead he is Wrong. *gg*

So you immediately demand more Evidence from me than from others.
You aint actually even trying to reason with me or try arguing the Statement. You immediately increase the Standart on my Person so you can Continue consider me wrong without actually facing the Argument or Explanatiion I made

By the way this is another Reason why I am not going to dig up the old Posts of that Topic back then.
Because even if I were to Invest that Work. You would Disagree with that and change the Interpretion of them so you can Claim that I am still wrong


The People in this Topic I was talking to. Actually Know what I was talking about. They see these Regulars Regular after all ^^
So they know pretty well just what I am getting at.
But no matter what I could ever do or say. Would ever Change your Mind of me being the offensive guy there.
And I have been Active in Online Forums for well over 10 Years. So sorry for not going along with this Game anymore


As I said.
You want to Claim I am wrong.
go ahead
You dont want to listen to me ? Very Good ^^ Then Dont


I made an Explanation to you.
An Reasoning
That Reasoning Stands for itself. Its not Affected by wherever you consider me Credible or like me

So if you want to make me actually Listen to YOU
I Suggest you try Attacking the Reason rather than my Person ^^
Otherwise you can just as well leave it be Because I am not going to Discuss my Person or my Ignore List with you
It doesnt lead anywhere anyways ^^

2.

Spoiler

I dont really think much about them at all to be honest.
See. We are all Adults. And the Truth is that Kickstarter is telling People Pretty Clearly that this is an Investment into an Project. Not you Buying a Game. It Informs about the Risk that this might not be on Schedule or might even not come at all.
Anyone doing a minimum bit of Research will find very Fast that what your Paying for is Developing a Game which means that there is no Guarantee it will be Finished.
Similar to an Stock Investment this includes some Risk.
The RSI Site itself is giving much less Info. But they do give you the Information on this when you check for it or if you Demand a Refund. And you GET a Refund if you still want it.

So everyone has to make his own Decision on this. And the Company itself is pretty apparently believing that they can make this Game. So its not an Fraud. It might Fail of course. Thats an Possibility. But its not Proven to Fail either
You can Complain that RSI should make more of an Effort to Clear People up about this. But its Fairly Human on their Side as well that they dont want to make massive efforts to do Negative Advertising for themselves. ^^

As for what I think of these People in Forums. Is the very Same I think about anyone else who refuses to Reason.
if they get on my Nerves they will end on my Ignore List. As easy as that.
I dont have time to Talk with People who dont wish to Reason on an actual Argument and instead go for an Outright Denial without reasoning or move towards questioning the Person behind the Statement rather than attempting to attack the Statement itself

Thanks for the response. It's pretty long though so pardon me if I ignore some of it and concentrate on the salient points.

First of all, I hardly post in this thread at all. I think anyone would be hard pushed as calling me a "hater". Then why respond you might ask....well, frankly I'm stuck at home with the flu and I was interested.

You made a statement, as you have acknowledged above, a statement by its very definition is very...well...definite! I cannot fathom what is wrong with asking for supporting evidence. How do you expect to discuss such a definite thing as a statement without any corroboration? I'm happy to have a reasonable discourse but there's literally nothing to discuss....unless you provide some examples of your statement in which case we can have a discussion about it. I honestly wasn't 100% whether there would be any posts supporting your view or not, I found it doubtful yes, but I think it was perfectly reasonable to give you the opportunity to support your stance. That's how discussions work. If you make a statement and won't defend it then you have placed a brick wall in the path of discussion.

For the record, I certainly don't consider you "the enemy" and I'm disappointed you would assume I would discount anything you would say that supports your points. I'm simply trying to have a discussion, point and counterpoint.

As for credibility, that's something that is established, like by backing up statements. If you aren't willing to do it, fine, I can appreciate it might be alot of effort (I wouldn't want to do it either) but if you can't/won't back up a statement...don't make the statement. Or at least make it sound diplomatic.

I'll leave it here, I think this has gotten OT anyway so I'll simply stop now.