The Star Citizen Thread v5

[Rolan]

Star Citizen: Bugsmashers - Episode 40
[video=youtube;YEl4ABpTTdw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEl4ABpTTdw[/video]

 

[MTBFritz]

It's a lot like listening to DS discuss why CIG will fail.

Exactly that, I agree with you, which kind of makes DS a non-factor and reduces his importance to that of every other poster in this thread yet somehow he gets singled out and in the past (and still is) was subject to massive campaigns and abuse. I referred to him as an expert in combination with the failing of his own project, not overall on the SC project. Nobody really knows what these guys are doing so the only "expert" would be internal and we wont ever hear from that. But saying DS is clueless about stuff isnt really right now is it? Hes been trying for a similar project and his own is as much "floating" as SC is at the moment. Of course the difference here is that DS does NOT operate on 140m $ leeched from private people like Chris Roberts does.

DS is lashing out because he got that treatement first from CR and the SC playerbase. He might be on a kind of "crusade" but honestly I can see why he does it and I would probably as well. CiG made its nest, now it has to sit on it.

At the same time Ben Perry is celebrated like a local hero even tho he himself doesnt have a clue about the project itself (as he confirmed in the past) and only covers "his own small area" which doesnt give him any complete insight. In addition he is a current employee of the company so I wouldnt really put any money on any of his claims (he makes very sure to remain as neutral and vague about the game itself as well and focuses on technical questions.....same as DS btw so both should be at about the same level).

Now I dont have any quarrel with Ben Perry. I find it kinda funny that he keeps posting here as it creates a dilemma for himself and the rest of the posters (cant talk about certain stuff, knowing that asking certain questions wont get answered etc) but seeing him getting elevated to "champion of SC" (on a reddit forum LOL) while DS is "satan" isnt really fair when you compare the both of them.

 

[thorn-]

Could we take how things went with Star Marine and Illfonic as anything to do with that?

Again, CR said that Illfonic didn't produce the desired result. Illfonic says they did.

I've certainly worked with people that didn't deliver the result I expected. I either had them redo it, or I found new people that could give me what I asked for the first time.

Unless you were in the room, and saw the spec, read the project updates, and saw the produced result, then you (nor I) know where the fault was.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

I think Derek's motives are not clean. Well, honestly other than a bit of self-promotion that doesn't exactly promote his best qualities, I don't know what his motives are. His blog is equally critical of CIG and their customers, so I don't think he's doing it "for the gamers". It is all very entertaining though. Arguments in which you're not personally vested are always entertaining. The thing is I'd like to be personally vested in Star Citizen to the tune of $59.95 when they have a complete game. Even as skeptical as I am I wonder if I should have picked it up on discount a couple weeks ago. I like space games, I hope Star Citizen grows up to be one some day, and I don't understand some people gleefulness at setbacks.

Well that's not true, I can understand someone drifting more and more that way when they're repeatedly called liars and told they're spreading FUD when they point out obvious problems and missed deadlines. i believe everyone here wants to have a civil discussion though, and if it became an echo-chamber for SC hate with no one defending it, I wouldn't visit anymore. It was great to have Ben posting about the lumberyard transition even if he was more familiar with the source control than the source code.

I don't care about Derek at that level. He is very abusive and I think he is too emotional or involved to be 100% right, nor I think he care to be honest. I just take facts from him and try to vet them and verify them or find logic reasoning behind them. I also take facts provided by CIG - but unfortunately they don't give me much to begin with. As I have said, CIG could easily publish their books in very general numbers and make Derek's arguments all moot.

However for me there's no hate, there's huge skepticism towards anything CIG or Chris does at this point. Too many bridges are burnt. Really you should have seen by now. Also Ben mostly have provided technical information, he hasn't invalidated much of what Derek has said about management of the project. I also want to stress that Ben has always been very informative about design and development process and that didn't change when he changed companies. I was sad to see some of fallouts here involving him but if he reads it I still think highly of him and thank him for all explanation he has done. I am not in game design/development but I am curious being so it is fun read.

If you would have to look under surface however - CIG and Chris has bashed/talked down/trolled about Elite Dangerous to no point while FD just been crunching code and features one after another. Their very vocal fan base on Internet think they have exclusive rights on opinion about SC, they can openly swing in, trash other games, pitch them in other threads/forums as offtopic just keep sales going. But I don't care. And FD really don't care. They just keep working on. Their books are published. They are transparent as company in their position can be. They don't have advantage to fantasize about unreleased game, because theirs is pretty much released. 2 years and going. Two console ports. Second half of second season incoming. Third (whatever it is called) at horizon.

There's saying - you reap what you sow. Very fitting for SC story if you tell me. But in the end, majority of us are here for fun - as we are in ED and space sims for fun. Online wars and religious hype cults are for twenty somethings. We know life is too short to wait for imaginary game to come around. And that's I guess is major point of pain for SC fanbois - we are inconvenience. We are evidence that other way exists. We are evidence that you can make fun about project issues while giving thumbs up when giving thumbs up are due. That actually, if you know what you are doing, you would have released game's first version by now - if you knew what you are doing. And that's something they have hard time to grasp - sheer possibility that it might be, just might be, Chris is fine guy to fantasize about game of everything but nothing much more.

I decided I won't back SC long time ago - and guess what, actual project issues wasn't reason I decided against it. I just can't stand that holy war raged around project. I have had fun times poking ED and FD and debating bugs and laughing smart jokes about issues. I have defended FD, but I have criticized them as well (still giving benefit of doubt which they have proven justified many times over). If community can't crack a joke and make fun of alpha issues, can't question leadership or ask for 'proof of life', then I am out. I am in this for fun. SC is just not fun. Yes, some people have small doses of fun in it, and I understand immerse appeal, but if you can't take black with white, then we might not understand each other.

 

[GaryII]

Could we take how things went with Star Marine and Illfonic as anything to do with that?

In the end it does not matter - was it poor choice of dev by CR or CR FAIL to communicate with Illfonic...

But what matters is everything was delayed like allways past 3 years or more...

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

In other news ME: Andromeda confirmed for March 21st http://www.polygon.com/2017/1/4/14159028/mass-effect-andromeda-release-date

CIG still not updating their estimate for Squadron 42 intro. What are last confirmed potential dates?

 

[Cotic]

I think what's important with the CIG/Illfonic debacle is not who said what but why on earth was it not even confirmed? Did no one even think that it might be important to double check before things went too far?

All Chris had to say about the matter is "I thought we were all on the same page." How does that fly? Can you imagine saying that to your boss over an expensive subcontract, "I thought...." the obvious response being "Clearly you did not think because otherwise you would have checked."

 

[Viajero]

His questions may be sound, but his technical background - as it applies to SC - is somewhat dubious. His history as a developer does not, as you said, "make him an EXPERT about the topic." If anything, it shows that he is not an expert on how things are successfully completed.

I once worked in a graphic design shop. The art director was good with layout and conception, but his software skills were of the 2002-era. The artists would spend a few hours retouching a photo of a grocery shelf, replacing the product labels with a "generic" label. They'd make a flat label in layout, then spend far too much time trying to twist it around several cans in photoshop. The process was very lengthy, outdated, and the result wasn't that great.

I suggested to the Art Director that I simply make one 3D can. Then I'd match perspective, drag it into position, and make a few instanced copies. It would save several hours per project. He finally agreed after much convincing.

Hour 1: I was drawing the profile of the can, in order to create a lathed object. He argued (for 20 minutes) that I shouldn't be using a flat-on view of a can, because the cans in the photograph had perspective.
Hour 1.5: I was making the art for the can. He argued that the label didn't need to be 7 inches wide, because the can in the photograph is only 3 inches wide. I had to explain the basics of "circumference".
Hour 1.75: While I was matching perspective, he argued that the label was too bright. He argued that the shadows weren't matching. I tried explaining that all these issues would be addressed at a later point; this was not the time to worry about such things. "No, I need you to make the shadows perfect NOW. Otherwise all of this effort is pointless."
Hour 2: Project completely abandoned. Back to retouching in photoshop.

My method would have worked completely fine, and saved time... but because The Boss had no idea how to do it himself, he assumed that either I also had no idea, or that it couldn't be done at all. Certainly, he felt qualified to stand behind me for a couple of hours and tell me why i was pushing the wrong buttons, doing the wrong steps, and ultimately trying to use a solution that would fail. The problem wasn't my method. It was his complete lack of knowledge in how it's done by competent people.

It's a lot like listening to DS discuss why CIG will fail.

Funny. At one time I was in doubt if you were really talking about Chris Roberts. Based on what I have seen so far in SC your scenario could fit him so well aswell.

 

[ianw]

That completely depends on how CR interacts with his project leaders.

I've worked for leaders that knew little about the process, and left me to solve it as I wished (of course, providing the result they desired.)
I've worked for leaders that also knew nothing about the process, but also insisted that I do things in a way that would lead to failure.

So do you think Chris just leaves it to his people to solve? Coz it doesn't look that way to me.

The delays in SC could be related to CR having great coders, but being a terrible manager. It could also be that he's a good manager day-to-day, but unfortunately hired bad coders. It could also be that he's a good manager, with good coders, but has decided the scope of the game needs to be increased and therefore it's taking more time.

As I'm not on CIG's team, nor personal friends with any of the SC project leaders, I've no idea if CR's management style is competent or not. Nor does anyone else, unless they're actually on-site or get regular reports from people with current knowledge.

If you're in charge and bad coders get hired that's down to you.

Given what we now know about the engine charge and all the ongoing problems with Star Marine and everything else they tried to do last year at events that somehow didn't happen - do you believe they really thought 3.0 was in any way realistic for year end?

Which is what they allowed people to believe.

 

[MTBFritz]

Again, CR said that Illfonic didn't produce the desired result. Illfonic says they did.

I find it rather telling that CR opted to make Illfonic the scapegoat YET the SM demo Illfonic produced looked better and more polished that whats available in 2.6 (and was available years back) which forced Illfonic to make an open statement. In my country theres a saying "wasche Deine Wäsche nicht in der Öffentlichkeit" which roughly translates into "keep your personal business behind closed doors". Thats what CR should ve done as a CEO and manager of a multimillion company but he always proves his complete inability to act like a professional (as first demonstrated in the escapist debacle)

Its hard to decide between these two camps if I try to stay unbiased but then.....thats not really the question and CR pointing to others for his projects failure also is of no importance. It was HIM promising features and the BSDDS (or whatever it is ^^) and now he cant deliver. Thats all that counts

IF he can deliver or not is of course main topic of this debate. Some claim hes on the right track others point out the projects shortcomings and its absence when it comes to a foundation and both opinions clash. I only know its 2017 when development started in 2011 and what we have doesnt look like it ll be finished in 2025.

edit: editing this post to add stuff rather then posting a new one, you people are too quick

Funny. At one time I was in doubt if you were really talking about Chris Roberts. Based on what I have seen so far in SC your scenario fits him so well aswell.

Its especially bad on reddit or in youtube comments when you go to the arguing spots. Almost everything pro-SC fans accuse others of not having in order to make a judgement (you know....expertise, scientific knowledge etc) can be equally applied to Chris Roberts but somehow nobody sees it.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

I think what's important with the CIG/Illfonic debacle is not who said what but why on earth was it not even confirmed? Did no one even think that it might be important to double check before things went too far?

All Chris had to say about the matter is "I thought we were all on the same page." How does that fly? Can you imagine saying that to your boss over an expensive subcontract, "I thought...." the obvious response being "Clearly you did not think because otherwise you would have checked."

Answer is simple - lack of management skills. If you are main leader, you delegate responsibilities - but you check upon those responsibilities. That's what actually leaders do - they work like switchboards, they connect people, they connect middle management so they get talk together, and do deliveries.

It is quite obvious with all information that didn't happen in any shape or form. It is also called pure simple incompetence.

 

[Insignificant_The_Galaxy_Cat]

Whilst we debate the endless wait for the will it/won't it simulator Star Citizen, Elite Dangerous is getting played by CohhCarnage on Twitch, with over 6000 people watching.... And he's having fun with the game too.

Meanwhile, Star Citizen is at 786 watchers *total* with the 18 players currently playing the game on Twitch.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Whilst we debate the endless wait for the will it/won't it simulator Star Citizen, Elite Dangerous is getting played by CohhCarnage on Twitch, with over 6000 people watching.... And he's having fun with the game too.

Meanwhile, Star Citizen is at 786 watchers *total* with the 18 players currently playing the game on Twitch.

Imagine, it would be awesome for FD to invite those guys on their offices and show them Season 3 to get them hyped, or even drop some footage.

We all know FD it's not gonna happen, but imagine that.

Edit: also he is getting "wrong" kind of fun last time I heard

 

[Insignificant_The_Galaxy_Cat]

Imagine, it would be awesome for FD to invite those guys on their offices and show them Season 3 to get them hyped, or even drop some footage.

We all know FD it's not gonna happen, but imagine that.

Edit: also he is getting "wrong" kind of fun last time I heard

*Heh* Well having a big streamer like that playing, and enjoying the game, is doing a good job promoting it already.

 

[Dooguk]

Answer is simple - lack of management skills. If you are main leader, you delegate responsibilities - but you check upon those responsibilities. That's what actually leaders do - they work like switchboards, they connect people, they connect middle management so they get talk together, and do deliveries.

It is quite obvious with all information that didn't happen in any shape or form. It is also called pure simple incompetence.

I hate the way he always has a snide remark or two about other developers, or their games when he's getting interviewed.

 

[MTBFritz]

how much utility do you need to get for spending e.g. $1500 on a ship?

Its an interesting question really. As a fact, the ship itself is just pixels and doesnt cost the company anything. Sure it has development time but then I thought the game was financed IN FULL twice over already by its backers? How much utility a ship has nobody knows because no design is fixed (remember we are in alpha) and we had several designs in the past going through fundamental changes so you buy a ship for 1500$ and dont really know what you ll end up with.

Its a JPEG at the moment BUT its pretty much the last option for CIG to generate money as the continual funding of the project after kickstarter requires some sort of carrote. Lets be honest here. People dont shell out hundreds or even thousands of $ for pixels in order to support the game even further. That might be a handy justification but I m not buying it (further supported by the uproar on their forums following their special sales offering ships cheaper then they used to be, why would people care if "supporting the project" is why they spend a fortune?). Its because of cool looks and the promise of starting out with an advantage (p2w anybody?). Thats why we see highly polished assets in an alpha which in itself is uncommon (lets just say NOT like normal game development at all) which gets iterated multiple times and sometimes completely overhauled before the mechanics supporting that type of ship are even in place (trade, cargo). Strangely enough CiG seems to focus exclusively on the marketing on ships rather then the game. I mean we get promotional videos of new ships in time all the time but snippets from SQ42 cannot be shown. I dont believe the official reply either, there HAS to be a trailer for SQ42 regarding their own quotes of how far along they already are but......nothing.

regarding the release of 2.0 in its then state I believe CR will hand out ANYTHING that buys him more time. As can be seen again with 2.6 which offers a rudimentary FPS but "breaks" the rest of the game in numerous ways. It doesnt matter as long as he can get something out to appease the cash co......backers. Yet nothing of SQ42 which lets me believe there is nothing at all. I remember quotes of the "agent" regarding SQ42 and so far that guy has a lot of credibility with me because a lot of his messages turned out to be true.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

*Heh* Well having a big streamer like that playing, and enjoying the game, is doing a good job promoting it already.

And he is actually showing that it is in game, right now. Yeah, it is best way to promote anything. Just show how it is. How to have fun in ED.

 

[MTBFritz]

Whilst we debate the endless wait for the will it/won't it simulator Star Citizen, Elite Dangerous is getting played by CohhCarnage on Twitch, with over 6000 people watching.... And he's having fun with the game too.

Meanwhile, Star Citizen is at 786 watchers *total* with the 18 players currently playing the game on Twitch.

Numbers apart which can be manipulated depending on what time you make a screenshot (thanks Orlando for demonstrating this neat trick ) its about QUALITY mostly. I mean the SC twichers HAVE TO BE payed....I cannot explain how they endure that torture any other way. Its boring, its buggy, its crashing and theres nothing to do. They start to go out of their way in order to make their OWN content because theres nothing to do. The quote is not true I think....yes, its an inch deep but its not a mile wide....or was that not SC???

- - - Updated - - -

In other news ME: Andromeda confirmed for March 21st http://www.polygon.com/2017/1/4/14159028/mass-effect-andromeda-release-date

CIG still not updating their estimate for Squadron 42 intro. What are last confirmed potential dates?

I m carefull but I certainly keep my eye on that game. CoD:Infintity wars was a complete disappointment, didnt buy it after watching hours worth of video and twitch or lets just say....."not worth 60 bucks". Yet the CoD trailers certainly made me excited. Same about Andromeda. I m curious to see what it has to offer but certainly wont pre-order without making considerable checks once its released. I remember NMS and CoD:I even tho I didnt lose any money on those games. Hype is cheap, delivering promises is actually hard.

 

[Winterwalker]

Imagine, it would be awesome for FD to invite those guys on their offices and show them Season 3 to get them hyped, or even drop some footage.

Not saying it's part of the plan for Elite but when Planet Coaster released, Frontier invited half a dozen PC streamers to the launch party. No doubt giving them a good time, one guy was flown in from the USA I believe, and as well as Frontier's own stream for the event, half a dozen more were going live at the same time. Best of all, the stream had good sound quality and there were approximately zero accidental cuts to blue screens or people packing their handbags.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

I m carefull but I certainly keep my eye on that game. CoD:Infintity wars was a complete disappointment, didnt buy it after watching hours worth of video and twitch or lets just say....."not worth 60 bucks". Yet the CoD trailers certainly made me excited. Same about Andromeda. I m curious to see what it has to offer but certainly wont pre-order without making considerable checks once its released. I remember NMS and CoD:I even tho I didnt lose any money on those games. Hype is cheap, delivering promises is actually hard.

Just don't preorder without seeing some beta/final release let's plays I am also on curious note there. I spend 60 USD for game in very few scenarios. ED is only game I have spent so much and more - never regret that. Although RPGs tend to be worth that value they require. Also I am not on Windows anymore...