The Star Citizen Thread v5

[thorn-]

So because a small group won't listen to reason nobody gets anything? That's pretty petulant and childish behaviour don't you think?

It's no more childish than people logging every sentence uttered by Chris Roberts, then pointing to it 2 years later as proof that Chris is trying to steal millions to live a lavish life.

Surely it's an opportunity to give some real details and a release date you can stick to so you can show those people they're wrong? Otherwise it just looks like a convenient excuse

When is the next season of Elite being released? I don't know, do you? Does the fact that Frontier says "when it's ready" mean they're just flailing around in the wind? Of course not.

 

[frostypaw]

It's no more childish than people logging every sentence uttered by Chris Roberts, then pointing to it 2 years later as proof that Chris is trying to steal millions to live a lavish life.

But as said it's only a few people doing that. So treating EVERYONE a certain way because of it is pretty pathetic don't you think?

There will always be naysayers. Gotta learn to live with it if you're going to do things in public. It's not the first time the Roberts's have had game delays etc so it's not new to them at all.

When is the next season of Elite being released? I don't know, do you? Does the fact that Frontier says "when it's ready" mean they're just flailing around in the wind? Of course not.

No - but Frontier don't have to prove they can release a game, so they aren't in the same position at all and you making it out like they are puts your arguing position into a very poor light.

 

[Marcus]

Because NO answer they can give will be acceptable to people that are already highly, vocally negative.

If CIG says "We're making sure that X is great. We've had to rewrite code, and it's taking longer than expected. However, we're confident we'll succeed." - you know what the cynic-response will be, right? "Why didn't you code X the right way the FIRST TIME? SEE?!? Another example of CIG incompetence! "

That's pretty much always what happens. So CIG has little reason to offer too many details about when, how, and why.

I find that answer astonishing...

Dont you see the problem with an approach like that?

It only GIVES ammunition to detractors by not honestly confronting and dealing with problems and looks extremely unprofessional to boot!

Is also does nothing to answer the questions and doubts that people on the fence about backing the game, such as myself, have about how things are going?

Indeed, again I would argue that by saying nothing it only leaves the "highly, vocally negative" (as you put it) voices to be heard. Thats not really a good strategy of dealing with criticism woudlnt you say?

And what about those who HAVE backed the game? Dont they deserve and explanation of whats happened? Dont you?

 

[Zyll Goliat]

EDIT: just checked my logs; yep - I was running 2.5 on Dec 21. So I did have the wrong download date in my head.

Sure you did.....maybe there are more"wrong"dates in your head???....[wacko]

 

[Ian Skippy]

The reason they don't provide a reason is because there is none. They knew 3.0 would never, ever release in December. They still wanted money from idiots, so they liefld. They can't tell that to the idiots, so they say nothing. Anyway, let's go for round six: vague till spring, than some bold promises and a nice trailer, vague , games com, citizen com, inane , dropping of dates, some buggy&neutered "3.0" in Dec 2017.

 

[thorn-]

Sure you did.....maybe there are more"wrong"dates in your head???....[wacko]

Troll someone else, dude. I'm not going to spend the next few hours feeding you.

You pointed out my date was wrong, I rechecked the log installs, and admitted you were correct. Be graceful about it, or just move on.

 

[Vasea Azure]

The reason they don't provide a reason is because there is none. They knew 3.0 would never, ever release in December. They still wanted money from idiots, so they liefld. They can't tell that to the idiots, so they say nothing. Anyway, let's go for round six: vague till spring, than some bold promises and a nice trailer, vague , games com, citizen com, inane , dropping of dates, some buggy&neutered "3.0" in Dec 2017.

I have all basement of popcorn for that ready. This project never fails to entertain me - got my 60 or so bucks of investment worth already.

 

[Sunleader]

I agree, I think its down to inexperience that they give out estimate dates for releases but then fail to hit them.

I have to say though, you'd think after getting it wrong on Arena Commander, Star Marine, SQ42, etc that they would learn the lesson and get better at it.

Its a worrying sign to me that they seem not to learn from their mistakes, as in my experience, its the hallmark of a badly run company or project.

I still dont see a reason why they cant just be upfront about saying why 3.0 was delayed? Dont you agree that they should handle this in a better way?

Personally I dont think its acceptable to promise such a headline feature then just not release it whilst saying nothing... its not how a decent company should behave!

There is many different tasks involved with Development.
So mistakes in one area will only teach em something about that area.
And only after having hit certain checkpoints where they can start a recalculation.

I assume they corrected their estimates over and over.
But even so they ended up off mark so they realized that without further data any new Estimates would only end up causing more problems as they would be wrong as well.


They did announce it.
Albeit I agree they made it unclear as people might not count the Statement of making no further estimates to also work backwards.
They likely decided that nothing they say will be received positively so they just pushed it away from them.

This is how most Game Companies handle it unfortunately.



A better way is somewhat hard to do.
If my guess is right there is no special reason for the delay.
They just entirely underestimated how much work is slowed down when you have to Coordinate it between several different Teams.
But Admitting that would be admitting that they are inexperienced which would be an Catastrophe in terms of Advertising.



Not exactly the most Honorful course.
But its a reasonable one for a Company.

 

[Adept]

Sigh.
Ok given your the one making this Question. I.ll Answer it.

Warning Offtopic.

Spoiler

Nope. Its an habit from writing German.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvJft2fJmaA

In German you will capitalize any Noun.
This also includes Verbs when used to describe or name the Action.

And this is where the Language Barrier kicks in. As I am not always sure on each verb in English because some words are simply different and/or are differently used.


One good example.

"I am going for a Walk"
"I mache einen Spaziergang"

In this case the word "walk" for me just does not make sense to be lower case letter.
Because in my head its translated to German and thus means "Spaziergang" which is using a Capital Letter. (As an sidenote. This word "Capital Letter" is the same problem. In German this would say "Großbuchstabe" which would be written with a Capital Letter.)

If I however had to write.

"How about you walk over there?" You notice I am not using a Capital Letter for "walk"
Because this translate to "Wie wäre es wenn du dort rüber gehst"
A pure Verb is not using a Capital Letter in German even if its the exactly same Word.

(Seriously. Write "Ich mache einen Spaziergang". And put it into Google Translate. And then just switch the Google Translator back and forth between translating German to English and English to German. It will change the Translation each time in Circles because the meaning and the by word translation ends up in different forms between English and German.)



So to sum it up.
This Habit (Note "This Habit" again naming something hence Capital Letter) comes from the Language Difference (Again "Language Difference" in German would be one Word "Sprachbarriere" which is naming something).
In German I have to actually have this Habit. Because it is actually the correct way to write in German. But when writing English. This tends to mess up completely because from the start I dont know each single Form in English anyways. And on top some meanings and expressions are entirely different to begin with.


And nope. Wont change it. ^^
Sorry but changing this Habit slows down my Writing Speed ("Schreibgeschwindigkeit" <- Name of something) quite considerable because I have to pay attention to the Habit rather than paying attention to what I am saying. And I cant put the Habit away entirely. Because this Habit is actually required and trained for writing German

To begin with Mate.
I know your actually just asking because your wondering.
But the thing is. This topic only always comes up after People started going into Indirect Insults and derailing the Topic away from the Arguments made.
It pretty much never comes up during an actual Discussion. But ALWAYS only later when People I got on Ignore. (like the guy you quoted ^^) which follow and comment me and have been Ignoring the actual Topic for several Pages.

I sympathise, but you're not writing in German. The rules for English are super simple when it comes to capital letters. You write a lot, and often in very long posts. Making the output readable is basic courtesy.

Speed is not essential. and I bet it doesn't even take long if you just make the effort to get it right.

I've learned the rules for both German and English (as well as Finnish and Swedish). I honestly thought it was the simplest thing about the German language really.

 

[Zyll Goliat]

Troll someone else, dude. I'm not going to spend the next few hours feeding you.

Just saying man.......don´t get angry....here maybe we can do a little test and see can we agree on certain dates&time....who knows maybe I need to adjust my "head":
1)How long SC is been in development?
2)What was the first official estimated delivery for SC /release date?
3)How many days you can squeeze in two weeks?

 

[Ian Skippy]

I assume they corrected their estimates over and over.
But even so they ended up off mark so they realized that without further data any new Estimates would only end up causing more problems as they would be wrong as well.

"Its going to be next week!"
"Scratch that, next year!"
"Scratch that, we really have no idea!"

Thats normal in development. You know. Espescially when the reason for the delay is:

If my guess is right there is no special reason for the delay.

"I thought it would be next week, but it could be 2018 now."
"Why?"
"Oh, no special reason."

 

[Marcus]

There is many different tasks involved with Development.
So mistakes in one area will only teach em something about that area.
And only after having hit certain checkpoints where they can start a recalculation.

I assume they corrected their estimates over and over.
But even so they ended up off mark so they realized that without further data any new Estimates would only end up causing more problems as they would be wrong as well.

They did announce it.
Albeit I agree they made it unclear as people might not count the Statement of making no further estimates to also work backwards.
They likely decided that nothing they say will be received positively so they just pushed it away from them.

As I said to Thorn, that strikes me as a very unprofessional attitude and doesnt do anything to build my confidence in they way CIG operate.

This is how most Game Companies handle it unfortunately.

A better way is somewhat hard to do.

There are certainly games companies out there that do similar things for sure, but that doesnt really make it ok in my book.

If CIG want to win over people who are sitting on the fnece about this game, then they really need to be operating to a higher standard than this.

If my guess is right there is no special reason for the delay.
They just entirely underestimated how much work is slowed down when you have to Coordinate it between several different Teams.
But Admitting that would be admitting that they are inexperienced which would be an Catastrophe in terms of Advertising.

Not exactly the most Honorful course.
But its a reasonable one for a Company.

I dont agree, I dont think not releasing a headline update for your game and then not explaining why is reasonable.

It just comes across as a shoddy (sorry I know english isnt your primary language, shoddy mean poor or unacceptable) way to treat not only your existing customers, but prospective ones like myself.

I find myself asking what seem like fairly obvious questions about 3.0 and nobody seems to be able to answer them. Is that really acceptable?

 

[Cotic]

There is many different tasks involved with Development.
So mistakes in one area will only teach em something about that area.
And only after having hit certain checkpoints where they can start a recalculation.

I assume they corrected their estimates over and over.
But even so they ended up off mark so they realized that without further data any new Estimates would only end up causing more problems as they would be wrong as well.


They did announce it.
Albeit I agree they made it unclear as people might not count the Statement of making no further estimates to also work backwards.
They likely decided that nothing they say will be received positively so they just pushed it away from them.

This is how most Game Companies handle it unfortunately.



A better way is somewhat hard to do.
If my guess is right there is no special reason for the delay.
They just entirely underestimated how much work is slowed down when you have to Coordinate it between several different Teams.
But Admitting that would be admitting that they are inexperienced which would be an Catastrophe in terms of Advertising.



Not exactly the most Honorful course.
But its a reasonable one for a Company.

I apologise if this sounds rude but this reads like wishful thinking/borderline apologism.

Virtually every date/estimate is given at an event which is always accompanied by a "sale" and every single time they are wrong with their estimate.
They know that expectations are high at these events and they also know wallets are at their loosest. Based on those 2 things they milk the situation unabashedly, they know full well they cannot match the dates given. If this was something that only occurred once or twice then fair enough, excuses would suffice but it is a pattern now. One that foolish people enable.

 

[Rolan]

Thanks for the reply, but that page doesnt answer my questions as it doesnt say why 3.0 has been delayed or when its coming, its mostly about 2.6.X

It's not making much sense to me why they would say 3.0 was out in December a few months ago then change their mind so quickly... its really the sort of thing they should be explaining to backers, dont you think?

If 2.6 was delayed and even now they have to release first 2.6.1 is kind of normal that 3.0 will come later. The thing that's not normal is what CR does with the dates.

 

[Tuub t Tute]

This will be a long answer. If it's too long for some, sorry...<snipped for brevity>.

That was really honest and informative and I do appreciate you taking the time to answer.

I know the easiest route would be for me to snark about them copying ED flight model, for once I will rise above that... It is great they have made some progress with a core game element.

Seriously though, so long as they get it working, it hardly matters what they reference. I'm sure ED are not going to get parochial about WWII dogfights in space

 

[Remus]

Sticking to promises would help change the tone. Not lying into our faces might also help. So, lets try again: where is 3.0? It would surely arrive in december, right? 2.6 was an alt branch and its delay wouldnt impact 3.0, right? We would all see you were right all year when they showed the amazing progress of 3.0, right?

But there is nothing. Not even a suggestion of a hint of something. So all you have left is a bunch of random insults. See you in the 'verse? What verse, there is half a system after five years and until 4.0 thats all there will be. And with 3.0 being a vague hope in the distant horizon, when will your 'verse' actually become something remotely resembling a universe? Or galaxy? Or just a halfway decent play area? Oh sorry, I forgot you werent allowed to think about this. "Open development" they call it.
"

Just blame the Thargoids.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

they already made up their mind to hate Star Citizen, Chris Roberts and CIG in general

Hasn't it been debunked already several times that most here don't hate. There might be one or two haters. I think most of us are just here for the lulz and have a genuine interest in seeing something released, if not for the sake of the developers, but for the sake of all those players who have sunk hundreds and thousands of dollars into the game.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Just blame the Thargoids.

Dont be mean to the SC guys here. Remember the Sandworm? Soon, the backers would have that! There would be planetary landings, and alien life, and danger and adventure! Elite would finally be overtaken and relegated to the dusty corners of gaming history. Star Citizen would show its claim to the throne were legit! Fast forward a few months, and what are the media reporting? The 'Elite Dangerous' Alien Discovery Is One Of The Coolest Gaming Events I've Ever Seen. What do is there to report about SC? Indefinitely delayed. Sq42? Delayed. Sandworms? Aliens? Planetary landings? None of it. What did 2016 deliver? No gameplay loops, no roles, no exploration, or mining, or trading, or smuggling, or anything. We've got a minimum of new tiny locations, some bugs are gone, some are added.

 

[Sunleader]

I sympathise, but you're not writing in German. The rules for English are super simple when it comes to capital letters. You write a lot, and often in very long posts. Making the output readable is basic courtesy.

Speed is not essential. and I bet it doesn't even take long if you just make the effort to get it right.

I've learned the rules for both German and English (as well as Finnish and Swedish). I honestly thought it was the simplest thing about the German language really.

I.ll write ya a PM.
Its going way too off topic if we continue this here.

As I said to Thorn, that strikes me as a very unprofessional attitude and doesnt do anything to build my confidence in they way CIG operate.



There are certainly games companies out there that do similar things for sure, but that doesnt really make it ok in my book.

If CIG want to win over people who are sitting on the fnece about this game, then they really need to be operating to a higher standard than this.



I dont agree, I dont think not releasing a headline update for your game and then not explaining why is reasonable.

It just comes across as a shoddy (sorry I know english isnt your primary language, shoddy mean poor or unacceptable) way to treat not only your existing customers, but prospective ones like myself.

I find myself asking what seem like fairly obvious questions about 3.0 and nobody seems to be able to answer them. Is that really acceptable?

1.
CIG was from the start completely Unprofessionell
For Professionals they talk way too much.

Professional Companies will usually not tell you anything until its Guaranteed to work.
But as I said before. Expecting Roberts to be making Cool Headed Decisions and Realistic Assumptions is ridiculous.
This guy is a Dreamer.

From the Start CIG shared tons of Information presenting Development in Progress and even Parts of the Game.

Any Professional Company knows. That making such Stuff Public Hurts them more than it helps because the Difference between Finished Product and Early Alpha Builds just is tremendous.
But they went ahead with it anyways


Compared to that. His move of indirectly canceling the announcement with a somewhat backhanded statement and then staying Silent on the Issues. Is almost too Professional.
it feels like someone else took Command of the thing. *gg*


2.
Simple answer.
They dont.
They dont give a crab about People on the Fence about this.
They got a Giant Base of Loyal Fans. So the widespread Haters only add Advertising.
Did you know. Some Companies even fake Scandals to get Attention.
Meanwhile SC is in the News every Week about whatever.

As long as Negative News stay Diffuse and remain Claims rather than Proven Facts it Serves their Purpose.

Now I must Admit I dont know how most Single Player Game Devs work on this.
But the MMOs I played almost exclusively worked this way.


3.
I learned English in a Game named Tibia.
Mostly from Brazilians which were a Big Guild that was Allied with our German Guild
So while its true that I will almost certainly get alot of Special Words wrong. I do know what Shoddy means.
I learned it because some Games have "Shoddy" Equipment which is low Grade stuff xD
<--- Feel Free to have a Laugh. But that is in Fact how I learned English. ^^
The English Teacher in my Apprenticeship said that my understanding of English is Real good for a not Native Speaker. But my Dialect Sounds like I am some Latino Gang Rapper xD
Needless to say that the Class had a Good laugh as well when I told them that I learned English in a Video Game mostly from Brazilians *gg*


As for the actual Point.
Well. As I said.
Its not exactly the most Honorful thing to do.
But it is an Reasonable Course.

Announcing their own Incompetence would not appease haters, would not win the trust of skepticals and would also not convince anyone.
So leaving the doubt open is in this case the better choice.

Unfair ?
Yes maybe.
But lets be Realistic here.
Would you rather have the make up some Announcement and Lie to you ?
Or do you really think that announcing that they are inexperienced and thus messed up the estimates would be better PR than just staying Silent ?

 

[Vasea Azure]

Hate? Nah - I see horrendously big budget, multiple studios across the world, huge "tech talks" - yet all I can play is a buggy tech demo that reminds me some weird Steam early access game. Its not hate, its pity and regret that I trusted them.