Avoiding Group Control...

[CaptainSodom]

Mark Allen replied with some of the background info on how bubbles (FD calls them Islands) work to my thread about floating point positional rounding errors possible as you get away from the origin of whatever 3D space is modelled. The rest is from my stint as a producer of Falcon4: Allied Force which uses very similar technologies (the engine for that title goes back to the early 90's).

So to put this into a soundbite: all players online at any given time are playing in the same universe (think EVE), but will be able to see and interact with only a limited # of players (32 or whatever) at any given time. The list of interactable players is not tied to systems, but changes dynamically as everyone moves around the galaxy, and may be altered by in-game mechanics, such as ignore and friends lists, and grouping.

Sound about right?

If above is right, it's probably better to avoid using the word instance, as it is generally used to mean an entirely different mechanic (eg. each system is one instance).

 

[Juniper]

So to put this into a soundbite: all players online at any given time are playing in the same universe (think EVE), but will be able to see and interact with only a limited # of players (32 or whatever) at any given time. The list of interactable players is not tied to systems, but changes dynamically as everyone moves around the galaxy, and may be altered by in-game mechanics, such as ignore and friends lists, and grouping.

Sound about right?

If above is right, it's probably better to avoid using the word instance, as it is generally used to mean an entirely different mechanic (eg. each system is one instance).

Yep, that's right. I agree that 'instance' is the wrong word, however it is accurate when applied to POIs like stations. When there are a large number of players around the same station, multiple copies (instances) of the station are created.

Another word that is bandied about by the devs is 'sessions'. 'Islands' is another. Tomayto, tomato.

 

[VR Mr Teatime]

So to put this into a soundbite: all players online at any given time are playing in the same universe (think EVE), but will be able to see and interact with only a limited # of players (32 or whatever) at any given time. The list of interactable players is not tied to systems, but changes dynamically as everyone moves around the galaxy, and may be altered by in-game mechanics, such as ignore and friends lists, and grouping.

Sound about right?

If above is right, it's probably better to avoid using the word instance, as it is generally used to mean an entirely different mechanic (eg. each system is one instance).

Yep - better than I could probably explain it

It also goes a long way to describing why pure client-server would not work, as the bubbles could be anywhere and every player essentially has one.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

So to put this into a soundbite: all players online at any given time are playing in the same universe (think EVE), but will be able to see and interact with only a limited # of players (32 or whatever) at any given time. The list of interactable players is not tied to systems, but changes dynamically as everyone moves around the galaxy, and may be altered by in-game mechanics, such as ignore and friends lists, and grouping.

Sound about right?

If above is right, it's probably better to avoid using the word instance, as it is generally used to mean an entirely different mechanic (eg. each system is one instance).

Well, word is correct, wrong is people jumping to conclusions and thinking one word can explain everything But yeah, your description is spot on

 

[Seonid]

I prefer the term "bubbles" as you can visualise an invisible bubble around your ship with a radius of the sensor range. When players are close enough to be in each others bubbles, they are temporarily merged into one (larger bubble) and as players leave sensor range, their own bubble separates from the merged one.

 

[Gibbonici]

"Bubbles" does make more sense and carries less baggage than "instances". Although it does make me think of the King of Pop's chimpanzee sidekick.

 

[ianw]

Strewth - we have a consensus!

Next you'll be linking arms and singing Kumbaya...



(useful info for future ref though...)

 

[Seonid]

Although it does make me think of the King of Pop's chimpanzee sidekick.

Say the person with Albert as their avatar.

 

[Gibbonici]

Say the person with Albert as their avatar.

Damn. Busted.

 

[Juniper]

Another little piece of beautiful information is that there are multiple instances of the galaxy.

One for every copy of the game in fact.

The centralised "galaxy server" is only for match making with others and for pushing galactic updates down to you. Broad player positioning is also handled through this I believe, with exact positioning handled by your client & P2P with others you are matched with.

It may seem obvious, but just in case it isn't.

 

[Ende]

I prefer the term "bubbles" as you can visualise an invisible bubble around your ship with a radius of the sensor range. When players are close enough to be in each others bubbles, they are temporarily merged into one (larger bubble) and as players leave sensor range, their own bubble separates from the merged one.

I think we have digressed a bit here.

The correct terminology is relevant for this discussion but not for the issue at hand... However FD plan to create an 'instanced' universe with a player limit of 32 will alwyas be open to abuse from mega-guilds like Goonswarm.

I can assure u that they will work out a method of moving around these instances, or tricking the system into showing them 32 players they want to see.

In some respects letting Goonswarm playtest the FD framework would be a good idea but i cant help but thinking they will bash the system hard when the games live in order to gain what they want to gain. And that ofc is to control as much of the player-verse as possible.

 

[Robert Maynard]

And that ofc is to control as much of the player-verse as possible.

They could end up being the only inhabitants of the All Group in the end....

 

[Juniper]

I can assure u that they will work out a method of moving around these instances, or tricking the system into showing them 32 players they want to see.

I can assure you they won't - not if those 32 players do not want to see them. The power belongs to the individual on who they wish to see and not see.

And even if they could, so what? It would not take long for their accounts to be known (and then ignored by the majority), or for the bounties to mount up (payable out of the criminal's pocket) and be a prime target for both bounty hunters and NPC police to boot.

This is what I'm trying to say. Traditional methods of control & chaos will simply not work in E: D. It's not really an MMO in the traditional sense.

 

[Space_Killer69]

Bounties only really matter if you care about the debt they generate or have any intention of paying them off.

Fair enough you're going to get Bounty hunters and NPC's after you. That just gives you and your mates something to kill while you're waiting to gank some newbs though.

Unless the system insta spawns un-killable NPC's when you jump into a system that your bounty/rep level warrants it's an inconvenience rather than a game changer.

Not advocating Inst Kill NPC's as that has too much of an impact on legitimate gameplay for pirates and pew-pew types.

 

[Ende]

I can assure you they won't - not if those 32 players do not want to see them. The power belongs to the individual on who they wish to see and not see.

So there is a way of group blocking thousands of players?

I think not.

Im assuming that blocking in ED will work in exactly the same way as any other game ever created... and thats after u have had a 'run in' with someone and u dont like them then u add them to your block list.

How can u block thousands of players before u even meet them or before u know their IGNs?

Goonswarm are thousands of players.

 

[Bromley86]

One way would be to be able to import others' block lists. Perhaps even a metalist, like anyone blocked by 3 members of the DDF. Or 10, or whatever.

Another way would be to also block others on the friends or alliance lists of the player you're blocking. Hard to get right though and anyway easy to get around; the goons just have to organise outside of ED and not bother putting each other on their friends lists.

 

[Juniper]

Bounties only really matter if you care about the debt they generate or have any intention of paying them off.

Fair enough you're going to get Bounty hunters and NPC's after you. That just gives you and your mates something to kill while you're waiting to gank some newbs though.

Unless the system insta spawns un-killable NPC's when you jump into a system that your bounty/rep level warrants it's an inconvenience rather than a game changer.

Not advocating Inst Kill NPC's as that has too much of an impact on legitimate gameplay for pirates and pew-pew types.

NPCs are not limited by the instance size, so yes, the background sim could generate a hundred or so Anacondas or Vipers and have them appear to take them out. Maybe a few capital ships as well. Assuming they get through those, 500 more could then arrive. And so on. It would quickly get to the point where it simply isn't worth their while to continue.

There is also talk of not allowing you to delete a character that has a bounty on them (until it's paid), or having an extended cool-down period to prevent disposable Sidewinder syndrome.

Goonswarm are thousands of players.

Goonswarm may be "thousands of players" but that is a tiny number in Elite terms. There are supposedly 60,000+ inhabited systems, and many billion more on top of that. Each system is huge in and of itself, and there are no choke points.

Even if they were a million strong, you would be unlucky to meet more than a couple of them if you weren't going out of your way to find them. As blocks work on an account basis, it would not take much to filter them out of your game - even in the "All Player" group which you are not forced to play in.

 

[CaptainSodom]

One way would be to be able to import others' block lists. Perhaps even a metalist, like anyone blocked by 3 members of the DDF. Or 10, or whatever.

Another way would be to also block others on the friends or alliance lists of the player you're blocking. Hard to get right though and anyway easy to get around; the goons just have to organise outside of ED and not bother putting each other on their friends lists.

Might work for the forum pilots, won't work for vast majority of players.

Only a minority will ever visit forums, and a tiny one frequent it. Therefore majority of players will not know about Goons or block lists, they will only know that they are being "griefed" every time they enter the game, and quit in disgust, badmouthing the game as grief central on blogs and twitters and FBs.

Note I'm not taking a positioning on what consists griefing, as that's another topic.

There have been some attempts at setting up in-game griefer hells in various games, where players who get too many griefing warnings are sent to, and will only be able to play with other griefers for a while, or until they change their ways. No idea if and how well such mechanics work, though, as I'm not a griefer and haven't been a victim of one.

 

[Juniper]

There have been some attempts at setting up in-game griefer hells in various games, where players who get too many griefing warnings are sent to, and will only be able to play with other griefers for a while, or until they change their ways. No idea if and how well such mechanics work, though, as I'm not a griefer and haven't been a victim of one.

This is currently under discussion in the DDF... the idea of a 'Hell' group. The devs are even being sneaky & talking about putting people into this group without telling them...

 

[Space_Killer69]

This is currently under discussion in the DDF... the idea of a 'Hell' group. The devs are even being sneaky & talking about putting people into this group without telling them...

Damn - that means I'm going to have to behave.