Gunner = Arcade Action Cam for the 12 yr olds?

[Muetdhiver]

It's basically the same view that the original Independence War used for the gunnery station, the computer is just giving you a gussied up view of the ship instead of a wireframe.

Pretty much. Simple, efficient and practical. as most things in I-War ^^. best possible choice for ED.

Unlike tying cameras to individual turrets. Now, that would be overly complicated, unwieldy and inefficient. A dream for immershun... in 1984 sci-fi...

 

[akaliel]

Your lack of any mental attributes of note is not so impressive. I'm sad to say.

Now now. When you start insulting people, you've lost the argument.

 

[Winterwalker]

I like the 3rd person cam.
But seriously , immersion breaking? Just accept Elite is a game.

There are countless examples in Elite of tech that should be breaking your immersion.

I agree, it's a game. Though actually I'd put it a slightly different way and imagine seriously advanced sci-fi technologies;

Personally saw Bullet Time (The Matrix) in the external view, producing an advanced targetting system, with a model of the ship composited into images from sets of hull mounted cameras. It wouldn't work for the camera suite but that's a different issue imo, and never saw a complaint yet about the debug cam. Bullet Time though could, with enough processing power, provide the gunner targetting view (and I think that's LOTS of fun).

Spoiler

[video=youtube;bKEcElcTUMk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKEcElcTUMk[/video]

 

[BL1P]

Again, I am sorry for being so vocal all of a sudden but I don't want one of you getting any bright ideas and advocating for "you must be triple Elite to activate third person view" or whatever nonsense people like to suggest for ruining my favorite space game.

"Cheap development?" Yeah, I really hope you're not trying to suggest vast amounts of money being pumped into a space game's development cycle means quality because oh man, do I have some space ship pictures I wanna sell you!

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"THIRD PERSON IS NOT REALISTIC!!" screamed the Commander, as his thrusterless ship gently drifts to a stop in zero gravity.

Seriously, the cognitive dissonance of some people can be really sad when it comes to this game.

Let me help you all.

The equipment used to use the gunner feature and the camera feature should be like all other systems/modules we use.
Equipable at a cost, uses power, can be destroyed.
The none existence of these makes it an arcade option which follows none of the rule set all other features use.

I am not saying make it Trip Elite or any rank required.
Just make it an Item/system/module that has pros and cons.

Whats wrong with that ?

 

[Seonid]

I'm guessing pretty much everyone that is complaining about immersion and turrets has never actually sat inside a real gun turret on something like an MBT or an AFV. If you had the same field of view as one of those when battened down, I guarantee the complaints would be far greater.

 

[Vasea Azure]

You, I like! We should make some cool movies, maybe divebomb some canyons or such.

We can actually do that now, be cool pilots, instead of playing ships that store a pilot inside of them.

(My guys are going nuts about the awesome new camera tools they're going to have, and it's going to make this game a lot more popular I think!)

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/12464-External-View-A-definitive-discussion

The battle was not easy but we got what we wanted... and much more that I dont really like - they really should make turret view less arcadey. I`m so confused about recent changes I think I need to go to sleep this over.

 

[bitstorm]

In the 34th century the line between 1st and 3rd person will be so blurred it will be irrelevant.

SRV turret? 3rd person view.

SLF telepresents? 3rd person view.

Multicruise via holomeme? 3rd person view.

We will be mostly living a 1st person via 3rd person existence.

 

[Noddie]

I've been playing video games for a loooong time. I've used external views a lot and - to be honest - I don't like them. Virtually everything I play I play in 1st person, it's just more natural to me. But - equally - if other people enjoy playing with things and they don't change my day at all - I don't object. I believe their use is optional - so who cares? I am a little bit worried about the potential balancing problems created by multicrew. But if that becomes a problem then you can always just play in open/mobius. Unless this is about to make for stupidly OP NPCs again. But if it does, i'm sure they'll tweak it.

You know what I would like, though? - A padlock view. Yup. I'd love that in Combat. Useful in so many ways, is a padlock view. For people who don't know, that's a view that keeps the pilot's head "looking" at whatever object you're locked onto. Be that a star, a ship, a station or a POI the pilot's head turns to face it. Sometimes they won't if the pilot's head doesn't turn that far, but that's about it. Usually you have a button that automatically snaps the head around to look when you press it and then snaps forward again when you let go. One game I played even turned the head if the enemy was to the side or looked in a mirror if they were behind. When the enemy passed behind you the pilot even whipped their head around to look over alternate shoulders to keep them in sight. Brilliant it was. And I'm guessing quite easy to do, too......

 

[CylonSurfer]

Now now. When you start insulting people, you've lost the argument.

Not at all, just replying in the same tone and manor as the poster that replied to me, the guy offering nothing of any real substance to this conversation other than a sad attempt at belittlement.

Thanks for confirming my assumption. Youre just some salty player who is looking for a fight. Nothing to see here.

Funny, had you pegged as "that guy" with you inital post to me being so polite and full of valid, on topic discussion points and all.

 

[Cmdr Cheese Wedge]

I'm an immersion player and I approve of "3rd Person" Gunner view.

I can't see how Frontier could have done this any other way to be honest.
I mean as a gunner you're still sitting in your seat, The "3rd Person view" is simply a VR representation of the 360 situational awareness view you would logically have in a futuristic combat ship.

I DON'T UNDERSTAND THE ISSUE.

 

[Kermit Laphroaig]

Honestly, my ulterior motive is I kind of want an excuse for the ship to drop you into the "fishbowl" that the camera images are displayed on, the screens flickering to life as you take control of the turrets. That animation would be *so cool*.

Like the inside of an ADF-01 Falken from Ace Combat 5, or when you hop into a Titan in one of the Titanfall games.

I honestly really appreciate you've put some intelligent thought about it.

I still think the camera is perfect as is, but I do see some options would be cool.

Personally, I would think a "classic mode" where the third person cam is the same, but replaces everything with classic Elite '84 graphics

 

[Lobstris]

Exactly. Trying to operate a turret while in a ship (and having to deal with its pilot's movements that you can't predict) would render turrets pointless. Limiting the POV to where the turret can move kneecaps an already limited position. It's not as if the turrets can fire in directions they can't reach (other than seeker missiles which can turn around in flight).

Or, it would give a reason for the pilot to fly straight to let the gunner use the turrets - which would help differentiate the large ships, and offset the multicrew bonuses. The disadvantage of having to this could be tweaked by making turrets more lethal overall, or having a slight 'lock' capability whilst the pilot doesn't move too much. As it stands, the extra pip, extra fighter and 'god mode' view do seem to add a bit to much power bias to multi-crewed ships. We'll see.

Oh, and to people saying "well in the 34th century we'd have 3D telepresence views", I agree, but I find it a bit weird that they haven't allowed a 3rd person camera before now, based on the argument of "we want players immersed in their ships cockpits" or "we don't want an external view to give an advantage in combat", but suddenly it's OK, as long as you are playing Elite the "propermultiplayer™" way?

Can we have proper flight-sim target padlock views now please?

 

[BL1P]

In the 34th century the line between 1st and 3rd person will be so blurred it will be irrelevant.

SRV turret? 3rd person view.

SLF telepresents? 3rd person view.

Multicruise via holomeme? 3rd person view.

Agreed and the ability to use those systems aboard a ship would cost something.
Could be disrupted/destroyed.
Would use some power.
It would not be a free, indestructible, energy free system. following how all the other systems we use work anyway.

 

[Kermit Laphroaig]

The equipment used to use the gunner feature and the camera feature should be like all other systems/modules we use.
Equipable at a cost, uses power, can be destroyed.
The none existence of these makes it an arcade option which follows none of the rule set all other features use.

I am not saying make it Trip Elite or any rank required.
Just make it an Item/system/module that has pros and cons.

Whats wrong with that ?

The game would have you believe that a docking computer should weigh about a ton and displace a slot for a two-ton module. Just a docking computer. There's actual bits of lore that might justify this, but again, I don't think I really want to leave it up to a module.

BTW how cool would it be to replace the docking computer with an 'advanced computer system' module with slots like an SRV or hanger? ANd put in stuff beyond docking computers?

 

[Xargo]

I was really looking forward to this whole multicrew thing and thought I'd be able to finally play ED like Artemis where you would have multiple stations in the cockpit each with some task such as engineer, comms officer, weapons officer and such. Comms officer would for example scan and analyze the shields of the enemy ship and send the info to weapons officer who would tune the parameters of the ship weapons to do max possible damage against those particular shields. Engineer could alter those shield parameters to counter enemy who's trying to find a weakness and so forth.

I like the implementation of the fighter pilot but this 3rd person gunner thing looks really really bad... I hope FD ditches the design and goes with a weapons officer role instead or something that can be done from the cockpit instead of this arcade nonsense.

More roles, more diversity, more content, not the same content in a different wrapping please.

... also can't see why this gunnery turret implementation would make chaff obsolete. At least from the livestream it looked like the turrets still tracked and the gunner would just point the rough area where the turrets should aim. If that's enough for chaff not to work this is even more broken. Not to mention how this makes silent running ships even more niche since gunners can easily spot them with this 3rd person arcade view. No thanks.

 

[Chpouky]

I can't imagine the pain using turrets in 1st person...

For example, I played Battlefield 1. Being a gunner on a plane is horrible if the pilot moves a lot. Now imagine with the additionnal movements in space

They choosed the fun side instead of deep frustration.

 

[Kermit Laphroaig]

Agreed and the ability to use those systems aboard a ship would cost something.
Could be disrupted/destroyed.
Would use some power.
It would not be a free, indestructible, energy free system. following how all the other systems we use work anyway.

Again, unpowered ships drift to a stop in zero gravity, trying to argue how this stuff works in Elite is like trying to argue how nuclear power shouldn't work like that in Fallout.

Look, if they throw in some static from an ECM burst to mess with gunners, would that be meeting you half way? Throwing you a bone here.

 

[BL1P]

The game would have you believe that a docking computer should weigh about a ton and displace a slot for a two-ton module. Just a docking computer. There's actual bits of lore that might justify this, but again, I don't think I really want to leave it up to a module.

BTW how cool would it be to replace the docking computer with an 'advanced computer system' module with slots like an SRV or hanger? ANd put in stuff beyond docking computers?

Thats not really an answer to my question m8.

Yes sometimes the stats for certain Items (docking computer) are a bit erm ... Off
But all of the advantageous system have these set of stats.
This gunner cam does not.

So as before. :-
What is wrong with giving the gunner cam system the same rule set as all other system we use ?

 

[Lobstris]

I was really looking forward to this whole multicrew thing and thought I'd be able to finally play ED like Artemis where you would have multiple stations in the cockpit each with some task such as engineer, comms officer, weapons officer and such. Comms officer would for example scan and analyze the shields of the enemy ship and send the info to weapons officer who would tune the parameters of the ship weapons to do max possible damage against those particular shields. Engineer could alter those shield parameters to counter enemy who's trying to find a weakness and so forth.

Yes, that's sort of what I was expecting they'd go for as well. But that would require some depth in the simulation of those stations, and we're not doing anything but 'arcade' now apparently.

 

[CMDR Redcrest]

Genuine question to the "immersion" crowd: have any of you ever got your hands on some new feature that you complained about - that wasn't changed - only to discover HUH! I actually like that, I was wrong?

It genuinely grates on me that every time some new feature is announced the hullabaloo goes up about immersion, not feasible within the lore etc etc etc. As if the lore can't evolve to fit new features that're implemented.
Why not wait to get your hands on said new feature and those with beta access contribute to fixing issues at the beta stage. Then on general release if there's still gameplay issues or things not working as they should or something is clearly not rewarding as it should be (e.g. surface prospecting in it's original incarnation) then by all means flag this up.

To me it appears "immersion" is a way of saying 'not how I would do x,y,z' 'not how envisioned x,y,z'

Let these things play out and make changes informed by tangible experience and not some ethereal notion of "immersion"