Gunner = Arcade Action Cam for the 12 yr olds?

[Ziljan]

and to me not having 3rd person when we have camera drones IRL is baffling, why should my immersion matter any more than your immersion

This game was sold as a first person experience of flying a ship. Eg the opposite of EVE or freelancer. A 3rd person perspective gives a huge advantage because it lets you see without a cockpits interference. The cockpit occlusion is so important and central to the game that some people choose the ship they fly based entirely on cockpit visibility.

If you remove the importance and relevance of the cockpit, then the game is fundamentally and irreparably altered. And it's not just a matter of preference, because anyone who didn't fly in 3rd person in PVP (or even PVE) would be at a competitive disadvantage. People would be strong armed into flying in 3rd person mode.

That is why.

 

[Tsao Nima]

This game was sold as a first person experience of flying a ship. Eg the opposite of EVE or freelancer. A 3rd person perspective gives a huge advantage because it lets you see without a cockpits interference. The cockpit occlusion is so important and central to the game that some people choose the ship they fly based entirely on cockpit visibility.

If you remove the importance and relevance of the cockpit, then the game is fundamentally and irreparably altered. And it's not just a matter of preference, because anyone who didn't fly in 3rd person in PVP (or even PVE) would be at a competitive disadvantage. People would be strong armed into flying in 3rd person mode.

That is why.

those are facts (that aren't quite solid - all the competition is consentual, what does advantage or disadvantage actually matter), what does that have to do with your immersion being more important than mine

 

[House0fDerp]

This game was sold as a first person experience of flying a ship. Eg the opposite of EVE or freelancer. A 3rd person perspective gives a huge advantage because it lets you see without a cockpits interference. The cockpit occlusion is so important and central to the game that some people choose the ship they fly based entirely on cockpit visibility.

If you remove the importance and relevance of the cockpit, then the game is fundamentally and irreparably altered. And it's not just a matter of preference, because anyone who didn't fly in 3rd person in PVP (or even PVE) would be at a competitive disadvantage.

That is why.

So we're against expanding options because some ships need to have bad cockpit views?

Also, I've never played freelancer, but if you think the most significant thing separating Eve and Elite as far as flying a ship is the perspective, I'd have to strongly disagree.

As far as competition goes, yes, that's what a tactical view would be for, promoting situational awareness. Sounds like it would be working as intended.

 

[Tsao Nima]

LOL!
And I thought I'm an immersion freak. But you top it by magnitudes whilst using "immersion" as the ultimative argumentation hammer.

all held the immersive and casual as unrelated.
none could foresee that the history of the two would become one.

 

[Nuarb]

This game was sold as a first person experience of flying a ship. Eg the opposite of EVE or freelancer. A 3rd person perspective gives a huge advantage because it lets you see without a cockpits interference. The cockpit occlusion is so important and central to the game that some people choose the ship they fly based entirely on cockpit visibility.

If you remove the importance and relevance of the cockpit, then the game is fundamentally and irreparably altered. And it's not just a matter of preference, because anyone who didn't fly in 3rd person in PVP (or even PVE) would be at a competitive disadvantage. People would be strong armed into flying in 3rd person mode.

That is why.

Well, I guess its a good thing they haven't removed the relevance of the cockpit then. The only one who gets a 3rd person targeting system is the person who literally needs it to do their job. You couldn't have a gunner manning targeting in any meaningful way that was fun without them being able to see what they're doing.

What do you want to do? You want to join someones crew then stare at a radar map in front of you click on a triangle and click "attack"? I've got news for you, the pilot can already select his own targets and let his turrets attack. If you're going to spend your time on someone elses ship, there needs to be something for you to actually do. It has to have a FUN (remember this is a video game, not a job) way to play the game (remember, game, fun) for everyone involved in multicrew or they might as well not add it.

What is your end game here? Do you want them to get rid of multicrew, or just make it so boring and miserable that no one ever wants to do it?

 

[Reina Kaede]

make it so boring and miserable that no one ever wants to do it?

We have a winner.

 

[Cobra1984]

You're saying this as a person who is playing the game as it is now. Fast forward to a year from now, when people have been playing the gunnery cam arcade mode for a whole year, and also with the new vanity cam. These people will begin to wonder they can't have combat HUD for the existing vanity cam. Just you wait. It may not even take a year.

Not sure why people can't empathize with future casuals and arcade lovers. They are always pushing to degrade the game further. The more leverage they have, the more they will push and pull to reduce the game to a pile of quivering coin-ops.

Again, this is the exact same argument that was used in 2014 against the introduction of an external cam - that it would lead to third person ship control. I just want to make sure that's crystal clear for anyone following this thread, which given the lack of moderation or cleaning is actually painful.


There's a few things here I want to pick up from your reply to my post-

1. You categorise the turret cam as a "degradation" to the game
2. Not agreeing with your point is a failure to "empathise"
3. This feature is, you feel, for "casuals and arcade lovers"
4. Yes I like lists

You have also only quoted part of my original post, I feel that kind of mispresents where I'm coming from so I'll quote it here, again just in case anyone is following the thread.

I think they are starting to add some "doing" to the "being", and it's about time. I was bored of the "being" after 100 hours and I think Frontier's player retention stats reflect that with an average playtime of 60 hours.

If you've had a couple of years out of it and feel like you're done then that's fair enough, but for me - I'm genuinely excited to see the multiplayer and online side of things starting to finally be exploited. It wasn't a single player pure Elite game and we all knew that at launch.

Don't get me wrong - I would kill for a single player genuine full on tough as all hell Elite with as much sim as you can cram in there. This isn't it, but it has enough of the flavour and the atmosphere and honestly there's no other game out there and no other game even being made that looks, sounds and feels anywhere near as damn good as ED with all it's flaws and warts and quirks.

They made the decision to do it online and this is where that decision has taken them. I still don't accept and neither do I think you have made a case for the turret cam thing being a lead in to the game going third person (that would be a huge fundamental change and I don't think anyone would even want it). I totally understand where you're coming from though and I genuinely hope you stick around and embrace what Frontier are doing. Finally some life going into the game.

The one point you have made that has any credibility or weight is that the turret cam gives leverage to players on down the line who want to start pushing for a full on third person mode. That's all it does, it gives a bit of leverage to making that argument. However, two years since the original external cam appeared show me that Frontier have no interest in doing this whatsoever, and I heard a dev during the livestream making the point that you can't really fly or engage in combat in the new cam system, he sort of pre-empted this very old concern.

So that 'slippery slope' argument as it applies to the turret cam is going nowhere. There's two years of it going nowhere.



Let me tell you what I see.

I see a very obvious and very entrenched cluster of folks who have been on this forum for a very long time pushing against any new feature that is geared towards multiplayer - using tenuous and strained arguments that fall apart in light of solid gameplay reasons or plain good old fashioned fun.

There is not the slightest indication of the turret cam meaning we're heading for a rework of the entire game into a third person arcade shooter, and the argument you present is so ridiculous to me that I have to sit back and wonder what is really going on with this immersion stuff.

I'm well into my sims and immersion and the concerns being raised dissolve completely any time I fire up the game.

If Frontier do turn around in a year's time and turn the whole thing into World of Spaceships then that will be the inevitable endgame of their decision to make it an online game and nothing else.

However, having watched the Dav Stott stream and the two multicrew livestreams, I actually credit them with a bit more integrity than that.

 

[Ziljan]

What is your end game here? Do you want them to get rid of multicrew, or just make it so boring and miserable that no one ever wants to do it?

You can read my posts to find out, or you can make silly assumptions as your kind are very fond of doing. I am not fighting against the necessary concession for a viable gunnery position, they obviously needed to detach the view of the gunner or there would be fresh vomit on keyboards with every install of 2.3. The solution by necessity means some kind of 3rd person cam FOR GUNNERS ONLY. My end game? I've already spelled it out in big crayons so everyone can understand. If you didn't read it before, why would you read it this time?

 

[Cobra1984]

I want to add one more thing to this line of thought - even if this is a filthy, degrading arcade feature geared toward 12 year olds - so what? The size and scope of this game is immense, the playerbase is as diverse as the playstyles, the player groups are as different from each other as I've ever seen in an online game...

... and you know what happens when 12 year olds grow up? They leave all that silly arcade nonsense behind and start getting into the real meat of the game.

Game could probably do with a few more arcade mechanics if it's planned to run for 10 years, suck those kids in and get them addicted and invested nice and early.

A different perspective can work wonders, I was 12 when I played the original for gods sake, and if the internet and youtube and netflix had been around I wouldn't have had the time nor the patience for it.

 

[The Lavian]

Frontier, at least reuse the limpet asset as a visible external camera that matches the gunner's movement. Do I really have to use that dirty word again.. immersion.

Please don't make Elite into mario cart.

Wot he said - all of it.



Cheers,

The Lavian

 

[Cobra1984]

You can read my posts to find out, or you can make silly assumptions as your kind are very fond of doing. I am not fighting against the necessary concession for a viable gunnery position, they obviously needed to detach the view of the gunner or there would be fresh vomit on keyboards with every install of 2.3. The solution by necessity means some kind of 3rd person cam FOR GUNNERS ONLY. My end game? I've already spelled it out in big crayons so everyone can understand. If you didn't read it before, why would you read it this time?

"your kind"?

There's really no need for that

 

[Ziljan]

"your kind"?

There's really no need for that

Kind = Arcade gamers. People who prefer simple twitch base games and twitch based posting.

 

[Tsao Nima]

Wot he said - all of it.



Cheers,

The Lavian

current day camera drones are the size of a dude's head, there's no reason you'd be able to see them let alone target them. especially if you add a thousand years of miniaturization

most sincerely,
bart fartface

 

[ROSS-128]

What I'm wondering is why do so many people insist that casual, convenient, and easy are absolute prerequisites to have any fun at all.

ARMA is fun, Dark Souls is fun, Dwarf Fortress is fun. There's lots of games where there's plenty of fun to be had without having instant gratification being handed to you on a silver platter.

Of course, FD has often botched attempts at adding difficulty pretty badly, and they've established quite a track record of taking the path of least resistance in terms of development-effort, but that doesn't make difficulty or complexity inherently bad. It just makes FD lazy.

 

[Reina Kaede]

Kind = Arcade gamers. People who prefer simple twitch base games and twitch based posting. Usually not too fond of books, reading, or details.

I think it's less of "We want to make ED into an Arcade game" and instead "3rd Person Camera, no matter how immersion-breaking, is probably the best possible way to make the Gunner role effective and desirable." Nothing about ruining the game or taking away its identity. At least that's the case for me.

 

[Ziljan]

current day camera drones are the size of a dude's head, there's no reason you'd be able to see them let alone target them. especially if you add a thousand years of miniaturization

Fair enough, but where does this tiny thing get the thrusters to

A. Keep up with the mothership
B. If tethered, retain it's independent attitude with regards to the ship.

 

[House0fDerp]

Kind = Arcade gamers. People who prefer simple twitch base games and twitch based posting. Usually not too fond of books, reading, or details.

Well now your just being cranky that someone else doesn't share you doomsayer perspective on 3rd person views.

 

[Ziljan]

I think it's less of "We want to make ED into an Arcade game" and instead "3rd Person Camera, no matter how immersion-breaking, is probably the best possible way to make the Gunner role effective and desirable." Nothing about ruining the game or taking away its identity. At least that's the case for me.

Read my above post again carefully. I am not arguing against the arcade concession to 3rd person gunnery. I am saying we need to draw a bright line in the sand here at non-pilot positions, or else the game will devolve into a fully arcade version of itself.

btw this is my last post where i'll repeat myself. If I ignore your post now it's because you're stuck in a ground hogs day loop and unaware of it.

^maybe I should put this in my signature?

 

[mossfoot]

Are you guys missing the distinction Ziljan is making between 3rd person turret and 3rd person pilot views? Because it really seems like you are. Repeatedly.

 

[Cobra1984]

Kind = Arcade gamers. People who prefer simple twitch base games and twitch based posting. Usually not too fond of books, reading, or details.

So you don't like "their kind" around here, is that it?

I'm not being nasty but man, you're not doing yourself any favours, this is dodgy language to be using. It's a game, lighten up.