It´s time to forget about online?

Also, complexity of networking comparable to general relativity? Dial it back a bit eh ;)
It's actually a fair comparison - general relativity precludes the concept of authoritative time (it's all, like, totally relative, man) -- a concept that's really important for clients that can communicate over connections that are geographically far apart (or have bad switches between them). If I shoot you, and it takes 340ms for the data to make the round trip (i.e. I hit you and your client acknowledges the hit), but in that time you hit me with six rail gun rounds and killed me (again, with the data taking 340ms to make the round trip), which client has authority?

Most twitch games these days use a hybrid client/server model that makes the server the arbitrator (with much wailing and gnashing of teeth from those whom the server decides died, as it tends to favour players with higher pings, in games like Battlefield, anyway - it manifests itself as the "I got to cover but still died!" rants on their forums). As I understand it, E:D dispenses with the arbitration server, which does result in a question of whose client commands the truth.

A good example of the issue is when I play CQC - it has a very small active player base, and most E:D players are in Europe and North America (I suspect that the majority of those are in Europe.) This means if I decide to go for the mindless pewpew, I get instanced with players eight or nine hours behind me. I might be flying like Luke Skywalker, but I see that even when the fire from opposing players seems to be missing me by a hundred metres, I still take hits to my shields.
 
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It's actually a fair comparison - general relativity precludes the concept of authoritative time (it's all, like, totally relative, man) -- a concept that's really important for clients that can communicate over connections that are geographically far apart (or have bad switches between them). If I shoot you, and it takes 340ms for the data to make the round trip (i.e. I hit you and your client acknowledges the hit), but in that time you hit me with six rail gun rounds and killed me (again, with the data taking 340ms to make the round trip), which client has authority?

Most twitch games these days use a hybrid client/server model that makes the server the arbitrator (with much wailing and gnashing of teeth from those whom the server decides died, as it tends to favour players with higher pings, in games like Battlefield, anyway - it manifests itself as the "I got to cover but still died!" rants on their forums). As I understand it, E:D dispenses with the arbitration server, which does result in a question of whose client commands the truth.

A good example of the issue is when I play CQC - it has a very small active player base, and most E:D players are in Europe and North America (I suspect that the majority of those are in Europe.) This means if I decide to go for the mindless pewpew, I get instanced with players eight or nine hours behind me. I might be flying like Luke Skywalker, but I see that even when the fire from opposing players seems to be missing me by a hundred metres, I still take hits to my shields.

No, it's a terrible comparison. It's just lag and you get that in every multiplayer game. The higher your ping (and/or your opponents) the worse the problem is. Most implementations use client side prediction to hide the effects from the player with the server having the final word based on various algorithms. I'm not complaining about lag. It's the instancing that's the biggest issue with the game.
 
No, it's a terrible comparison. It's just lag and you get that in every multiplayer game. The higher your ping (and/or your opponents) the worse the problem is. Most implementations use client side prediction to hide the effects from the player with the server having the final word based on various algorithms. I'm not complaining about lag. It's the instancing that's the biggest issue with the game.
Then you haven't justified your response (which I quoted.)

GG
 
havent read everything,
bute as far as i know,
Elite dangerous is a strange mix of a server based background-simulation, and peer2peer networking. the later is probably the reason for most connectivity issues in multiplayer
 
At the moment, in the way that im seen things. i would erase all conectivity between players and focus on all the other features.
online features are broken from root since peer to peer conectivity desition, just keep the features that are "working" like wings.

just give us atmosferic planetary landing, cities, nature and strange worlds to explore. strange singularities on empty space.
Give us better trade mechanics, a real bounty hunting mechatics off seek and destroy across the bubble.

just forget all the buggy and crappy conectivity scrap and give us all the good things.

sorry my english


I don`t know if anyone else said this, but it will never happen. Why?

It`s a form of drm and control.
 
Take it from a Level 99 Cisco Ultra Network Programmer Prestige Level 45 guy.. (me)

Network programming is easy.
You plug in the wall thing (socket :)) to make the lights go... Then you plug in the phone cord thingy to the back of that one box with all the holes in it....
Then you plug in the other phone jack thingies and make the lights go happy... You dont even need a keyboard! Peer to pier giggledy swaparoo netcode flim flam automagic!
Bam!! 25 Decibel meter bits per minute download confirmed!!

Take it from me, a real life network thingie programmer dude.

So easy a caveman could do it.

That's hilarious, have some rep :D This forum could use more people like you. this thread especially.
 
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...Anyone who plays ED using a Wi-Fi connection to their PC has no right to complain about anything regarding their online performance in this game. The same would go for every single friend they want to play with. Wi-Fi SUCKS for online gaming, and I don't care what latest version you use. The packet loss from the technology sucks out of the box compared to a Cat-6 ethernet cable....

I understand where you're coming from but the old canard about "wifi sucks for gaming" is just that. Blanket statements that WERE true on hardware and firmware a couple of generations in the past become accepted as gospel, even by professionals in the field.

I use wifi for gaming because in my current location I don't have a choice. However I've yet to see a dropped packet between my PC and the access point so I'd have no right to gripe because I'm on wifi even though my connection is as rock solid as a wired one and I've the wireshark logs to prove it? (Admittedly that's because I spent an inordinate amount of time making darn SURE it was optimized when I set it up and probably brought a few more resources to that effort than the average consumer)

I, personally, have no issues whatsoever with ED other than when my ISP is throwing a wobbler. Their tech-support guys both love and hate me. The first tier folks hate me because by the time I call them I'm already far beyond their 3-ring binder of troubleshooting but as son as I can persuade them to escalate the upper tier techs love me because I hand them logs and test results to back up everything I tell them - thoroughly enough that after the last time I spoke to them the high-tier tech who fixed the issue said he'd put a note on my file to have my calls bypass the low-level stuff because I only call when they really do have something to fix and I give them the right info so that they can do it fast :)
 

Goose4291

Banned
I understand where you're coming from but the old canard about "wifi sucks for gaming" is just that. Blanket statements that WERE true on hardware and firmware a couple of generations in the past become accepted as gospel, even by professionals in the field.

I use wifi for gaming because in my current location I don't have a choice. However I've yet to see a dropped packet between my PC and the access point so I'd have no right to gripe because I'm on wifi even though my connection is as rock solid as a wired one and I've the wireshark logs to prove it? (Admittedly that's because I spent an inordinate amount of time making darn SURE it was optimized when I set it up and probably brought a few more resources to that effort than the average consumer)

I, personally, have no issues whatsoever with ED other than when my ISP is throwing a wobbler. Their tech-support guys both love and hate me. The first tier folks hate me because by the time I call them I'm already far beyond their 3-ring binder of troubleshooting but as son as I can persuade them to escalate the upper tier techs love me because I hand them logs and test results to back up everything I tell them - thoroughly enough that after the last time I spoke to them the high-tier tech who fixed the issue said he'd put a note on my file to have my calls bypass the low-level stuff because I only call when they really do have something to fix and I give them the right info so that they can do it fast :)

To be fair, a friend of mine used wifi (despite me telling him numerous times to use a bloody cable) and we were getting lots of the usual issues. I ended up buying him a cable and fitting it for him and a lot of the issue occurances dropped off massively.
 
I used to work with Access Databases, querying data tables stored on network shares, ODBC or SQL servers. I'm far from an expert on networking protocols but as I understand it Wi-fi is geared up for burst activity (loading web pages, downloading files etc) rather than continuous two-way data transfer like a long running database query or P2P gaming.

Regardless of speed, a cable has stability & latency advantages over a wireless connection. The advantage of wireless is portability & convenience, at the expense of connection stability.
 
I used to work with Access Databases, querying data tables stored on network shares, ODBC or SQL servers. I'm far from an expert on networking protocols but as I understand it Wi-fi is geared up for burst activity (loading web pages, downloading files etc) rather than continuous two-way data transfer like a long running database query or P2P gaming.

Regardless of speed, a cable has stability & latency advantages over a wireless connection. The advantage of wireless is portability & convenience, at the expense of connection stability.

Yes and no. If we're going to get into technical details, the primary reason why "wifi sucks for gaming" - or indeed any use that requires continuous two-way communication - became such an article of faith was that the 802.11 standard is half-duplex transmission. Any UTP cable hookup is full-duplex with transmit and receive on physically separate conductors.

Half-duplex isn't something the lower layers of the model are unused to handling, though. The origin of ethernet used a single shared physical connection, a coax cable segment. The various protocols for handling a half-duplex data channel are so deeply embedded in networking that they are likely subject to continental drift.

Provided the total transmission bandwidth is fast enough, half-duplex comms do not suffer any inherent disadvantages over full-duplex. However, early 802.11 implementations were not really quick enough to avoid "wait states" for the physical channel to become available - thus WiFi's reputation for latency and packet loss which in those days was fully justified and showed up most when dealing with just the kind of usage we're talking about, sustained moderate to high bandwidth bidirectional traffic. As the maximum bandwidth of a WiFi connection improved, these issues were mitigated. If the wireless portion of the communication path is imposing "duplexing delays" that are only of the same or lower order of magnitude as the latency on the rest of the communications path then those duplexing delays will not have an effect that is detectable from either end of the socket.

That improvement is why WiFi's "defenders" pointed to their faster protocols as an argument why "WiFi no longer sucks for...." but that was only one of WiFi's problems and boosting the total bandwidth did nothing to mitigate the second major one. WiFi used the 2.4GHz band. They shared that part of the spectrum with bluetooth, with cordless phones, with part of an amateur radio band and even with the output of the cavity magnetrons that are the heat source for consumer-grade microwave ovens. (large commercial grade ones use a different frequency band) Couple that with the fact that the 14 WiFi channels within the 2.4GHz band overlap considerably it is unsurprising that in such a crowded piece of spectrum interference issues were responsible for some decidedly dodgy connectivity. All the innovations to increase bandwidth in this frequency band did nothing to ameliorate that.

The "solution" to that was to use the 5GHz band instead. At this higher frequency, channels can be "packed together" more tightly without crosstalk between them. Pretty much all WiFi kit is now capable of using this higher band in addition to the legacy 2.4GHz band. Unfortunately, here we run into the problem of the "consumer-grade potato"

Even today, a lot of the kit ISPs ship out prioritizes 2.4. Even where it doesn't actively do so, while it is transmitting on both bands it is often using the same SSID on both, which leads to many devices defaulting to the lower and poorer frequency. You CAN undo this particular bone-headed default but you'll be delving into the "advanced config" of your router and I'd wager the vast majority of home users have never even thought of going there - they see the "latest" set of letters appended to 802.11 and think its all good, never realizing that their computer may be ignoring the fast lane, even though it boasts the same set of magic letters in its own spec.

So yeah, a WiFi connection using modern kit that is properly set up can be perfectly OK for gaming or any other demanding application for which WiFi traditionally "sucks" - but it has to BE properly set up and that is still relatively rare to find in an out of the box default config and changing away from those defaults is not an exercise for the ignorant.
 
So the OP is essentially asking to rip the backbone of what the (inhabited regions of) the Elite universe is, the unified Back-Ground Simulation, the piece of magic that somehow populates tens of thousands (if not more) stations and locations in the game that all somehow interact with and evolve around each other without constantly falling apart and breaking down, and do away with that entirely, on top of cutting off the entire multiplayer aspect of Elite?

Haha, NO.
 
So yeah, a WiFi connection using modern kit that is properly set up can be perfectly OK for gaming or any other demanding application for which WiFi traditionally "sucks" - but it has to BE properly set up and that is still relatively rare to find in an out of the box default config and changing away from those defaults is not an exercise for the ignorant.

That's a great write-up, thank you. I understood most of what you describe, mostly from research when configuring my home network (bugs me that my next-door neighbour uses 2.4GHz channels 1 & 9 instead of 1, 6 or 11, I use 1 & 6) but I don't deal with this stuff daily. I didn't realise wi-fi wasn't full duplex but it's consistent with my statement above.

In addition to your reasoning I'd like to reinforce that the environment & movement around it can make a significant difference even when the wi-fi is well configured. Other stuff that's switched on as you touched on, and other devices in the home sharing that wi-fi bandwidth can all make a difference to the connection quality & speed.

I agree that wi-fi can be perfectly usable in the right circumstances, but compared to the minor inconvenience of a wire? I'd only use wireless for P2P gaming if I had no alternative.
 
FDevs P2P set up for this game is...okay.

I am a fuel rat. Believe me, we know all about instancing and network issues. Last I checked, I still can't rescue any client who happens to be in australia. Found that lovely fact on my drill. Just ask some fuel rats about these issues.

Not an issue. You cannot have a good connection with the entire world. Video games requires relatively low latency to work well. The devs intentionally do not allow you to instance with people in Australia because they are too damn far from where you live.
 
I never cease to be amazed by networking critics ... who have never programmed a socket in their life.

I never understand people defending a software company that has employes several networking specialists and delivers a game with networking that doesn' t work a lot of times.
These same people then attack folks on these forums that complain about poor networking, telling them it's their faulft for not reconfiguring their router, or silly things like that. I've been playing online games for the last 15 years and untill this game I've never had to change settings in my router.
FD is at fault for choosing p2p networking in what they want to be an mmo, not the users.
 
Not an issue. You cannot have a good connection with the entire world. Video games requires relatively low latency to work well. The devs intentionally do not allow you to instance with people in Australia because they are too damn far from where you live.

Nah, that ain't it. I know an Australian streamer who gets around this by using a VPN. It's more likely to do with Australia's wonkiness in general when it comes to their internet and the rules surrounding it.
 
Not an issue. You cannot have a good connection with the entire world. Video games requires relatively low latency to work well. The devs intentionally do not allow you to instance with people in Australia because they are too damn far from where you live.

Right, other games I play tend to have North American servers and EU servers. Eve Online, on the other hand has one big server. I dont know how any of that stuff works. :)
 
VPN's - while handy - don't solve the basic problem of physical distance, increase the problem of logical distance, add their own latency, and some ISP's routinely run VPN traffic through the slowest and longest backends they can find - or make it disappear entirely.
 
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