The Star Citizen Thread v5

[thorn-]

To get the obvious in before DS does, CIG are selling pre-orders.

Many companies sell pre-orders; you can purchase a DVD on Amazon in this manner. That doesn't constitute fraud.

Their website shows pictures of spaceships, with price tags. That is what people are buying.

And the ships are clearly marked "flight-ready" or "concept stage" or whatever.

Neither of these conditions constitute fraud nor illegal activity. And again - if DS wishes to use Lily as an example of precedent, he should show specifically why precedent applies. So far, he has not.

 

[dsmart]

Gnorok did not state that CA did not have a valid case against the drone company. He asked how this creates a precedent regarding SC.

Mental gymnastics I see.

His statement was "How is a faked drone video a precedent regarding SC?"

My response: Are you serious? So you thought the State Attorney froze all their assets over a "fake video"? Did you actually READ what happened?

Now go back and read my response. Slowly. And it will make sense. It's pure English, so maybe it won't be clear to some people.

 

[Gnorok]

To get the obvious in before DS does, CIG are selling pre-orders. Their website shows pictures of spaceships, with price tags. That is what people are buying. You can't weasel-word out of consumer protection legislation by claiming that people are 'crowdfunding' a product rather than buying it. And CIG know this, which is why they are paying out refunds. If they didn't have to, they wouldn't. Not just because it costs them money, but because it looks bad for the project. They are paying out because the alternative is likely to be a whole lot worse.

As my former boss (who had studied law herself and is the most pragmatic person with that background I know) always said: "On the ocean and at court you are in the hand of god". So all the theorizing on forums about legal implications is futile, until a court has made it´s final judgement.

 

[Asp Explorer]

I am excited. The game will be incredible. I had several of my mates buy packages this past week.

Here, have a free lulzbucket

Sit back with the beverage of your choice and watch all the latest CIG tv shows

 

[Rolan]

Hey guys, I'm back from the holidays with my family. I hope all of you had a great weekend/holiday


And now:
This Week in Star Citizen
April 17th, 2017

Spoiler

GREETINGS CITIZENS

---

It’s been a busy week.

Last week saw the release of ATV with our always stellar UK Studio Update and the addition of what was almost certainly our largest, most in-depth Ship Shape segment of all time: the Aegis Javelin. ATV has grown and evolved by leaps and bounds over the last year, and a large part of that is due to the continued support of our Subscribers, and the tremendous work of team members across the world dedicating their time and efforts to pulling back the curtain and showing you more of what we’ve been working on than ever before.

So to you and to them, I just wanted to add one more, “Thank You” to the pile. You’re the best.

Yeah, you.

Okay, maybe not YOU, but definitely you.

Also last week we published our March Monthly Studio Report and our biggest schedule update, ever, including a behind-the-scenes video detailing just some of the considerations made when putting together a production schedule at any level. Doing this was something Chris was extremely passionate about, and I don’t have to tell you how contagious that passion for making Star Citizen can be. It’s one of the many reasons we enjoy working on a project like this.

If you haven’t checked out Chris’ Letter from the Chairman and the 3.0/2017 Production Schedule Report, I’d highly recommend you do so.

I also got to visit a replica of the Hotel Room from the end of 2001: a Space Odyssey this weekend and I’m still excited about it so I’m including a line about it and picture here and nobody can stop me. I’m even gonna bold it.
This week brings us continuing episodes of Citizens of the Stars and Loremaker’s Guide to the Galaxy, an ATV on Thursday from the LA Studio, and the return of Happy Hour Gamedev on Friday. What’s on this week’s Gamedev? Well, if things go how I think they’re gonna go, it won’t be like anything you’ll ever see from any other game studio, so check that out. Of course, thinking about it, that’s every episode of Happy Hour Gamedev so far, isn’t it?

Subscribers can look for a thread about the next Subscriber’s Town Hall to go up in the Den sometime this week, and a thread for the next 10 for the Chairman Special Edition to go up in the weeks after that.

And in case you missed it, the price for our next concept ship, the Banu Defender was announced over the weekend in the Ship Prices announcement thread. It’s $185 dollars, and the ship and the Banu race will be revealed to the world on Friday.

With that, I’ll see you in the ‘Verse.

Jared “Disco Lando” Huckaby
Community Manager

Source: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/citizens/15844-This-Week-In-Star-Citizen

 

[Tippis]

I stated my opinion

…and immediately dismissed it as having insignificant relevance, which rather raises the question of why you even bothered stating it to begin with if that's how you view them.

Oh, and saying “no disrespect” after being disrespectful doesn't actually change the sentiment of what you write.

 

[thorn-]

Mental gymnastics I see.

It is not mental gymnastics. It is a discussion based on accurate quotes.

Gnorak: How is a faked drone video a precedent regarding SC?
Derek: Are you serious? So you thought the State Attorney froze all their assets over a "fake video"? Did you actually READ what happened?
thorn: Gnorok did not state that CA did not have a valid case against the drone company. He asked how this creates a precedent regarding SC.

You have yet to provide an answer to how Lily's actions set precedent in the matter of CIG.

His statement was "How is a faked drone video a precedent regarding SC?"

Yes, it was. And you linked to a techcrunch article discussing Lily. You didn't support your claim of precedence.

Now go back and read my response. Slowly. And it will make sense. It's pure English, so maybe it won't be clear to some people.

Your response was certainly clear English, and did not take long to read. However, you answered the question of "How was Lily charged with fraud?" - which was not a question anyone is asking.

 

[Gnorok]

Mental gymnastics I see.

His statement was "How is a faked drone video a precedent regarding SC?"

My response: Are you serious? So you thought the State Attorney froze all their assets over a "fake video"? Did you actually READ what happened?

Now go back and read my response. Slowly. And it will make sense. It's pure English, so maybe it won't be clear to some people.

And I have answered (maybe not in very pure english [yesnod]). It makes no sense until you are willing to explain your statement.

 

[dsmart]

So I have to ask again, how is this a precedent regarding star citizen?

No, this is a COMPLETELY different question that what you asked before.

This:

How is a faked drone video a precedent regarding SC?

is not the same as this:

how is this a precedent regarding star citizen?

They are mutually exclusive questions.

My answer to the first remains as was originally written:

Are you serious? So you thought the State Attorney froze all their assets over a "fake video"? Did you actually READ what happened?

My answer to the second is quoted directly from the article:

Part of the suit has to do with the initial pitch video, watched by millions of people, showing off what appeared to be a Lily drone following users and shooting video. The drone responsible for all that fancy aerial work and video was not in fact a Lily, but a DJI Inspire, something the creators failed to mention.

There’s also a slightly technical issue that forms a second front in the DA’s lawsuit: the fact that they went with an independent “pre-order” strategy rather than an established crowdfunded development site like Kickstarter. That makes Lily’s money qualify more on the side of internet sales than investment in an idea (something Kickstarter and its projects are always careful to explain), which exposed the company to certain consumer protection laws.

One, the FTC’s Mail Order Rule, required that, if a pre-ordered product is seriously delayed, the company must issue refunds unless customers indicate they don’t mind the wait. Lily certainly must qualify as having encountered long delays — from February 2016 to “later in 2017” — but refunds were not issued at large.

It’s this second offense that caused the DA’s office to file a temporary restraining order freezing Lily’s assets — to prevent it from, in the words of the TRO, “further dissipating these ill-gotten preorder funds.”

1) The Lily drone video was faked, didn't represent the product pitched; and the execs were busted in fraudulent misrepresentation.

See Star Citizen "demos"

2) The Lily drone project was very delayed.

See Star Citizen's Nov 2014 promised date, and every single missed date since then. As of today, the project is officially 29 months overdue

3) The Lily drone project wasn't issuing refunds. CIG/RSI wasn't issuing refunds - as required by law.

See Star Citizen refunds debacle.

To wit: Back when I challenged the refunds as per the rubbish ToS versions, very few took me seriously. At that time, refunds weren't happening. Then someone decided to test it and went straight to State authorities. The fallout was amazing. I wrote a whole blog surrounding it.

Then just like that, refunds were a thing.

4) The Lily drone project moved their crowd-funding off Kickstarter.

CIG/RSI moved their funding off Kickstarter, where accountability would have prevailed, to their own private crowd-funding site

5) The Lily drone project regarded the backer money as "pledges" and not sales.

CIG/RSI have long insisted that backer money were pledges, and not sales (as in pre-sales).

Your turn.

 

[Apoc]

Sure you did.
And stop being disrespectful, please.

lol, ok, but you first.

 

[AJW]

Many companies sell pre-orders; you can purchase a DVD on Amazon in this manner. That doesn't constitute fraud.


And the ships are clearly marked "flight-ready" or "concept stage" or whatever.

Neither of these conditions constitute fraud nor illegal activity. And again - if DS wishes to use Lily as an example of precedent, he should show specifically why precedent applies. So far, he has not.

Congratulations, you have won the internet non sequitur of the week award. I never said that selling pre-orders was fraud. The point (which I should have thought was blindingly obvious, given that I spelt it out explicitly) was that the consumer protection laws which applied to Lily (and which were one of the reasons they ended up in court) also apply to CIG. Which is why the quote you gave in the post I quoted about a "technical issue" is a complete red herring. It doesn't matter a jot whether CIG have described their pre-orders as 'crowdfunding' or not. They could describe then as 'stardust-sprinkled moonbeam donations' and they'd still form an enforceable contract between the buyer and the seller.

 

[dsmart]

They are not mutually exclusive. "This" is a pronoun, a common english grammatical element, which refers (as discussed several times in the past hour) to "Lily", or "faked drone video" - whichever your preference.

(double-quote snipped for sake of post length)

You have provided facts regarding Lily. You have not shown how this has been granted precedence by any court.

Your blog is not proof of precedence, nor any finding by any court. One can write a long blog about how income tax violates the 16th amendment, but that argument will be laughed out of court. As you have accused CIG of fraud and imply that states' attorneys are either considering charges, or are in the process of filing such charges, I invite you to provide evidence of this beyond your own blog's accusations.

OK now you're just being willfully ignorant and not interested in good faith discussions.

The fact is that a State attorney got a TRO (the single most difficult court order to obtain) - effectively shutting down a business and seizing their assets. He got it because he convinced the judge that the TRO had merits, and the judge agreed - thus granting it. That's how that works. And even though I highlighted all the key parts obtained from the legal filing, you then chose to ignore them because you have no further argument to make.

ps: If you don't know what "legal precedence" means, you should look it up. Also, throw in "mutually exclusive" while you're at it.

 

[Backer42]

4) The Lily drone project moved their crowd-funding off Kickstarter.

CIG/RSI moved their funding off Kickstarter, where accountability would have prevailed, to their own private crowd-funding site

It should be noted however that CIG was taking pre-order money from day one (2012-10-10) on their own webpage robertsspaceindustries.com (which crashed multiple times under the load), additionally to Kickstarter.

 

[dsmart]

It should be noted however that CIG was taking pre-order money from day one (2012-10-10) on their own webpage robertsspaceindustries.com (which crashed multiple times under the load), additionally to Kickstarter.

Yeah. They moved to Kickstarter; while Turbulent was building the new website.

 

[Gnorok]

No, this is a COMPLETELY different question that what you asked before.

This:

How is a faked drone video a precedent regarding SC?

is not the same as this:

how is this a precedent regarding star citizen?

They are mutually exclusive questions.

My answer to the first remains as was originally written:



My answer to the second is quoted directly from the article:





1) The Lily drone video was faked, didn't represent the product pitched; and the execs were busted in fraudulent misrepresentation.

See Star Citizen "demos"

2) The Lily drone project was very delayed.

See Star Citizen's Nov 2014 promised date, and every single missed date since then. As of today, the project is officially 29 months overdue

3) The Lily drone project wasn't issuing refunds. CIG/RSI wasn't issuing refunds - as required by law.

See Star Citizen refunds debacle.

To wit: Back when I challenged the refunds as per the rubbish ToS versions, very few took me seriously. At that time, refunds weren't happening. Then someone decided to test it and went straight to State authorities. The fallout was amazing. I wrote a whole blog surrounding it.

Then just like that, refunds were a thing.

4) The Lily drone project moved their crowd-funding off Kickstarter.

CIG/RSI moved their funding off Kickstarter, where accountability would have prevailed, to their own private crowd-funding site

5) The Lily drone project regarded the backer money as "pledges" and not sales.

CIG/RSI have long insisted that backer money were pledges, and not sales (as in pre-sales).

Your turn.

Well, that are a lot of claims which are quite "thin". Just two examples:

1. The Lily drone video was faked, didn't represent the product pitched; and the execs were busted in fraudulent misrepresentation. See Star Citizen "demos"

Good luck with this comparison at court...

2. "if a pre-ordered product is seriously delayed, the company must issue refunds unless customers indicate they don’t mind the wait."

Part of the ToS:
"However, you acknowledge and agree that delivery as of such date is not a firm promise and may be extended by RSI since unforeseen events may extend the development and/or production time. Accordingly, you agree that any unearned portion of your Pledge shall not be refundable until and unless RSI has ceased development and failed to deliver the relevant pledge items and/or the Game to you."

So the customer of CIG indicated with the pledge he didn´t mind to wait.


And if you think, the ToS are worthless, I refer to my post before; Until there is a court decision such claims are nice assumptions but not of any legal relevance.

I don´t think you´ll find with your arguments any attorney who is willing to claim precedence, but that´s just my opinion.

Nevertheless, thanks for your answer!

 

[dsmart]

Let's start with the fact that a TRO is not the single most difficult court order to obtain. It just isn't. If a lawyer told you this, find a new lawyer.

What is a Temporary Restraining Order?

A temporary restraining order (“TRO”) is an emergency order that can be issued by either a state or a federal trial level court. It is considered an extraordinary remedy, which means that it is difficult to obtain a TRO even where the facts and the law demonstrate that the party seeking the TRO will be harmed in the absence of a TRO.

WHAT YOUR LAWYER MUST PROVE TO WIN A TRO

In order to successfully win a temporary restraining order, your lawyer must convince a judge that:

1) You will likely win your injunction;

2) The actions from which you are seeking relief are irreparably harming you in some way;

3) If the TRO is not granted, you or others will suffer because of it;

4) The TRO doesn’t harm the public’s interest.

ps. For a bonus point, look up "ad hominem"

Your turn.

 

[MTBFritz]

Sorry, but opinions on forums providing 'guidance' have insignificant relevance.


I am happy to support the game and happy to wait for it, much in the same way I supported Elite.

So end of 2018 is the current deadline then, cheers good to know

- - - Updated - - -

Hey guys, I'm back from the holidays with my family. I hope all of you had a great weekend/holiday


And now:
This Week in Star Citizen
April 17th, 2017

Spoiler

GREETINGS CITIZENS

---

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/media/bllbt274l7pihr/post/OnPlanet_02_AddOns.jpg

It’s been a busy week.

Last week saw the release of ATV with our always stellar UK Studio Update and the addition of what was almost certainly our largest, most in-depth Ship Shape segment of all time: the Aegis Javelin. ATV has grown and evolved by leaps and bounds over the last year, and a large part of that is due to the continued support of our Subscribers, and the tremendous work of team members across the world dedicating their time and efforts to pulling back the curtain and showing you more of what we’ve been working on than ever before.

So to you and to them, I just wanted to add one more, “Thank You” to the pile. You’re the best.

Yeah, you.

Okay, maybe not YOU, but definitely you.

Also last week we published our March Monthly Studio Report and our biggest schedule update, ever, including a behind-the-scenes video detailing just some of the considerations made when putting together a production schedule at any level. Doing this was something Chris was extremely passionate about, and I don’t have to tell you how contagious that passion for making Star Citizen can be. It’s one of the many reasons we enjoy working on a project like this.

If you haven’t checked out Chris’ Letter from the Chairman and the 3.0/2017 Production Schedule Report, I’d highly recommend you do so.

https://robertsspaceindustries.com/media/92pyc0agtlt7xr/post/C9gdTgDVoAIcarD.jpg

I also got to visit a replica of the Hotel Room from the end of 2001: a Space Odyssey this weekend and I’m still excited about it so I’m including a line about it and picture here and nobody can stop me. I’m even gonna bold it.
This week brings us continuing episodes of Citizens of the Stars and Loremaker’s Guide to the Galaxy, an ATV on Thursday from the LA Studio, and the return of Happy Hour Gamedev on Friday. What’s on this week’s Gamedev? Well, if things go how I think they’re gonna go, it won’t be like anything you’ll ever see from any other game studio, so check that out. Of course, thinking about it, that’s every episode of Happy Hour Gamedev so far, isn’t it?

Subscribers can look for a thread about the next Subscriber’s Town Hall to go up in the Den sometime this week, and a thread for the next 10 for the Chairman Special Edition to go up in the weeks after that.

And in case you missed it, the price for our next concept ship, the Banu Defender was announced over the weekend in the Ship Prices announcement thread. It’s $185 dollars, and the ship and the Banu race will be revealed to the world on Friday.

With that, I’ll see you in the ‘Verse.

Jared “Disco Lando” Huckaby
Community Manager

Source: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/citizens/15844-This-Week-In-Star-Citizen

Cheers welcome back Rolan, missed you man, at least you dont try to pick a fight over nothing and be stubborn as an oxe

/hugs

 

[frostypaw]

So that was a busy day. I've learnt from SC superfans that CIG are incompetent and fake videos of stuff that's not in the game are fine.

Strange times.

 

[metatheurgist]

So that was a busy day. I've learnt from SC superfans that CIG are incompetent and fake videos of stuff that's not in the game are fine.

Strange times.

I've also learned that you can suggest that you might a do certain number of things for financial compensation but as long as you don't utter the magic words "I promise" you can not be held liable for anything. And here I thought that logic expired when I was 8.

 

[Dogeh]

And I have learned that some evangelise because of the grey market...

Oh and welcome back Rolan!