It feels like someone is doing their job wrong

[Monk]

If people can stop sniping at each other and going all ad hominem then this thread, with it's consistent general agreement that F D needs to actually engage with their customers, might actually cause some form of consideration of it to occur within decision-making circles. Engaging in personal attacks will just devalue all the good stuff that has been posted.

+1, exactly. Imagine yourself as Brett or Ed. You've been tasked, as part of your job, with combing through this thread (as well as many others like it) and creating a "Community" report for Brookes and Braben.

After about the third time some nobody on the Internet says you are doing your job terribly, you lose the will to continue and begin to regard your community as a trash heap.

These are humans who have to deal with us for a living, just remember that, everyone.

 

[iFred]

Many of us have made suggestions over the years. Few of us were ever responded to by Frontier, let alone successful at changing their development schedule. Yet some of us still try now and then, while other new hopefuls make suggestions of their own.

Most Elite players do agree on one thing though: the development priorities should change, Frontier should work on the core mechanics rather than new bolt-on features for a time. This is an almost universal opinion amongst the playerbase on every media format where the game is discussed. This thread is yet another piece of evidence proving that desire for Elite’s near future.

Yup. We have archived polls showing this, and all player I talk(ed) to feel exactly the same.

 

[Whitehair]

+These are humans who have to deal with us for a living, just remember that, everyone.

Agreed.

Reading the monotonous, one tone, same post made over and over and over again by posters who have nohing but one thing to say, such as 'Yes. Agree. Game is boring', is like suffering the 'death by 1000 cuts' torture.

If I was a games developer I would forbid my employees from ever reading the games forums.

 

[Walth_r]

Agreed.

Reading the monotonous, one tone, same post made over and over and over again by posters who have nohing but one thing to say, such as 'Yes. Agree. Game is boring', is like suffering the 'death by 1000 cuts' torture.

If I was a games developer I would forbid my employees from ever reading the games forums.

I agree that unconstructive criticism is bad for the ego and the motivation... but not engaging with your community and customers is bad for your company/product... so I'd just like to add to your text:

... but I'd also hire a team of community / social media managers to engage with those and help filter the information so that we and our customers can benefit from it

 

[Martian Successor]

Your certified player base investigation results to back this claim?

Check out the archived sections on this very forum. Check out the ED Reddit, check out the long standing ED Facebook groups, any social media related to ED really. Check into one of the more established player groups on INARA and join some of the established group's Discord channels.

You'll find that Mengy is quite accurate in his claim.

 

[Monk]

I agree that unconstructive criticism is bad for the ego and the motivation... but not engaging with your community and customers is bad for your company/product... so I'd just like to add to your text:

... but I'd also hire a team of community / social media managers to engage with those and help filter the information so that we and our customers can benefit from it

Umm...Brett and Ed...and probably a few others I'm not thinking of

Ed's community outreach, I think, has been quite good. It doesn't really touch development, because his hands are tied there, but you cannot deny his regular engagement with the community and the feedback he has been able to take back to the devs as a result.

I've lost count of the number of times Sandro has had his name dragged through the mud, yet he still comes on livestreams and does the best he can while being limited in what he can divulge.

And, lets not forget the amazing stream Dav gave us on a deep dive into the inner workings of some topics a lot of people have been very interested in.

This revisionist history about how engaged FDev is with us is honestly frustrating, especially for them.

Do I want more in the way of future development news? Yes, absolutely, but I can see why they have pulled back on that after receiving a few broken noses. To that, I say, stick your necks back out there FDev. Roll with the punches because they are love punches, really <3

 

[CMDR MERANGO]

Great thread OP, plus 2 Rep +_+

We all love this game, hence why we constantly B & Moan so much, BUT, we predominantly further agree that this whole game could be so much more with a little more focus from FDev on much of what has been stated by the OP.

I constantly feel, that the next patch is the patch whereby everything comes together but sadly, after every single Beta, the game is riddled with issues that seriously impacts the game in a negative manner, which kinda hides the real reason that the FDevs have lost their way with the addition of the newest content. Maybe there is a conspiracy to wreak game play havoc to hide the deplorable let-downs of the latest patches!

Maybe its a ploy to out-fox DB's vision!


CMIV

 

[Martian Successor]

Umm...Brett and Ed...and probably a few others I'm not thinking of

Ed's community outreach, I think, has been quite good. It doesn't really touch development, because his hands are tied there, but you cannot deny his regular engagement with the community and the feedback he has been able to take back to the devs as a result.

I've lost count of the number of times Sandro has had his name dragged through the mud, yet he still comes on livestreams and does the best he can while being limited in what he can divulge.

And, lets not forget the amazing stream Dav gave us on a deep dive into the inner workings of some topics a lot of people have been very interested in.

This revisionist history about how engaged FDev is with us is honestly frustrating, especially for them.

Do I want more in the way of future development news? Yes, absolutely, but I can see why they have pulled back on that after receiving a few broken noses. To that, I say, stick your necks back out there FDev. Roll with the punches because they are love punches, really <3

There was that one dev guy that hit back, got himself quite a nice neckless of ears and teeth in his own right. I loved his posts, they showed passion and fire

 

[Monk]

Great thread OP, plus 2 Rep +_+

We all love this game, hence why we constantly B & Moan so much, BUT, we predominantly further agree that this whole game could be so much more with a little more focus from FDev on much of what has been stated by the OP.

I constantly feel, that the next patch is the patch whereby everything comes together but sadly, after every single Beta, the game is riddled with issues that seriously impacts the game in a negative manner, which kinda hides the real reason that the FDevs have lost their way with the addition of the newest content. Maybe there is a conspiracy to wreak game play havoc to hide the deplorable let-downs of the latest patches!

Maybe its a ploy to out-fox DB's vision!


CMIV

Not sure if serous...

Anyway, expecting the next patch to be the second coming is always going to leave you disappointed. Most game-breaking issues do get fixed...while not as timely as I'd prefer, they do get to them. Then there are the big ones that have persisted since 1.0...I suspect they are more complicated or their fixes might alter the way the game plays as a whole and must be put on the backburner...I don't know.

Of course, there are always the things I want to enhance existing fucntionality. Creating "life" around stations, working more intimately with NPCs both on ship and in space. Exploration mechanics that ask you to do more than just point and scan and a robust trade system where you can spend an hour with an in-game tool designing your perfect route. Every time we get another new bit of functionality, I am left a bit unsatisfied.

To me, it appears the plan is to expand the scaffolding to its near maximum and then put the content in afterwards. I think it is the wrong decision, but then it isn't my business. I understand sales are top priority, so it makes sense. I just hope they realize that filling in what they have outlined so far will generate a lot of buzz and can generate sales in that way too.

 

[Whitehair]

Check out the archived sections on this very forum. Check out the ED Reddit, check out the long standing ED Facebook groups, any social media related to ED really. Check into one of the more established player groups on INARA and join some of the established group's Discord channels.

You'll find that Mengy is quite accurate in his claim.

I have seen the threads on this forum.

Its always the same few people spouting the same line (from both sides of the fence). I'd say 100 people tops.

So my questions stands. What figures can he present to back up his claim of, and I quote, "Almost universal opinion". That cannot be allowed to stand as an unvalidated statement. IMO.

Having a loud mouth does not make an opinion universal.

 

[Monk]

There was that one dev guy that hit back, got himself quite a nice neckless of ears and teeth in his own right. I loved his posts, they showed passion and fire

Hah, was that Mike, not sure. But I remember what you are referring to. One of the best days on the forum.

 

[verminstar]

Umm...Brett and Ed...and probably a few others I'm not thinking of

Ed's community outreach, I think, has been quite good. It doesn't really touch development, because his hands are tied there, but you cannot deny his regular engagement with the community and the feedback he has been able to take back to the devs as a result.

I've lost count of the number of times Sandro has had his name dragged through the mud, yet he still comes on livestreams and does the best he can while being limited in what he can divulge.

And, lets not forget the amazing stream Dav gave us on a deep dive into the inner workings of some topics a lot of people have been very interested in.

This revisionist history about how engaged FDev is with us is honestly frustrating, especially for them.

Do I want more in the way of future development news? Yes, absolutely, but I can see why they have pulled back on that after receiving a few broken noses. To that, I say, stick your necks back out there FDev. Roll with the punches because they are love punches, really <3

The problem I personally had with livestreams and the QA sessions was that the questions were cherry picked, with the understanding there are certain questions they simply will not be drawn upon...they even lay the law down that the questions they dont want to answer arent even asked. Thats not being open, thats being selective like a politician at a private press interview.

Its gotten to the point where I regard livestreams as nothing more than cheap PR campaigns with real answers on a drip feed. Thats based on a personal opinion before someone starts on about official surveys and the like.

Recently, there were threads asking for suggestions of questions that someone would be asking. By far the most popular question wasnt even asked if the replies posted a week later was anything to go by...how does cherry picked questions and vague answers at best equate to being open?

 

[Monk]

The problem I personally had with livestreams and the QA sessions was that the questions were cherry picked, with the understanding there are certain questions they simply will not be drawn upon...they even lay the law down that the questions they dont want to answer arent even asked. Thats not being open, thats being selective like a politician at a private press interview.

Its gotten to the point where I regard livestreams as nothing more than cheap PR campaigns with real answers on a drip feed. Thats based on a personal opinion before someone starts on about official surveys and the like.

Recently, there were threads asking for suggestions of questions that someone would be asking. By far the most popular question wasnt even asked if the replies posted a week later was anything to go by...how does cherry picked questions and vague answers at best equate to being open?

True, I've noticed this as well. At least some acknowledgement to what can't be answered and maybe a little bit on why would go a long way with the community. Personally, I don't jump on most live streams anymore, rather, I look for the synopsis later and then watch if there were any revelations.

 

[verminstar]

True, I've noticed this as well. At least some acknowledgement to what can't be answered and maybe a little bit on why would go a long way with the community. Personally, I don't jump on most live streams anymore, rather, I look for the synopsis later and then watch if there were any revelations.

I do understand why some questions might not have good answers, but not giving anything at all, not even an excuse seems to cause more issues than it solves. It leaves one with the impression that they dont know...now maybe they do know and are waiting on the say so or they are working on something else. Thats understandable but even being told honestly they are working on other projects is better than being told nothing at all. Actually cherry picking what questions they are asked really does leave one with a bad taste in the mouth.

The lack of information leaves salty and bored players to come up with imagined answers, conspiracies, criticisms and wild guesswork. This causes a whole plethora of problems and conflicts on the forums, both here and elsewhere. Really, I dont think anyone truly expects intimate one on ones...would be nice but realistically, its impossible...but 20 minutes here and there maybe leaving a status update would undoubtedly go a long way to clearing up a great many issues and most importantly, prove that they really are open which would increase morale among the troops as it were.

Even being told a certain feature is proving to be troublesome or that something has to take a backseat fer 6 months...even that would be something compared to the nothing we have now. Of course, they can stay silent if they want...hows that been working out so far?

 

[IamMe]

by the amount of bugs in live game version, yes someone is doing their/his job wrong!
In a matter of game direction "NO", it's their decisions and it's our problem that we don't like it or expect features that Braben described back in KS, for those goals DB described back in KS i think they realised they are not capable to develop it so game direction is changed toward pure PvP/PvE we have now, in short arcade RPG stlye. That's why their silence about future content.
Ppl would be less unsatisfied and complaining if they don't pay upfront and invest in promises, instead buy live content so they can decide for sure do they like it or not from gameplay vids.

 

[Monk]

Of course, they can stay silent if they want...hows that been working out so far?

By the only measure that matters...games sales and cosmetics sales. It is likely that it appears to be working for them. Though, I'm not sure.

To be a fly on the wall at FDev...one can dream

 

[Ian Skippy]

By the only measure that matters...games sales and cosmetics sales. It is likely that it appears to be working for them. Though, I'm not sure.

To be a fly on the wall at FDev...one can dream

Well, its the second highest peak-player month since dec 2015 on Steam Charts. Seriously though, if I were FD I'd purely focus on making sure the PS4 release goes well (with such luxuries as a working galmap). When you get down to it, gamers tend to be simple creatures. They can whine and complain forever, but if you release something they want they'll buy it no matter how often they claim to boycot the company (*looks at EA*). They pretty much have our money already for 2.4, not many will base their S2 purchase on it anyway, and there is a lot of money in PS4. So grab that and then focus on making sure you have something to sell that gets good reviews.

 

[Martian Successor]

I have seen the threads on this forum.

Its always the same few people spouting the same line (from both sides of the fence). I'd say 100 people tops.

So my questions stands. What figures can he present to back up his claim of, and I quote, "Almost universal opinion". That cannot be allowed to stand as an unvalidated statement. IMO.

Having a loud mouth does not make an opinion universal.

Likewise neither can your claim of "100 people tops" repeating the same concerns stand as an unvalidated statement. I could just as well ask if you have figures to back that claim up? For my part I can only explain to you how Mengy's statement rings true for me and why. Diversify the group of people you interact with who play ED and you'll see the truth of Mengy's claim, in my opinion.

I talk to people on this forum, on INARA in general, with friends and members of the player group I'm in, at get togethers in real life, in the Discord chat channels of various long standing and dedicated player groups. I read the forums on Reddit, I see the comments random people post on social media and during livestreams, I read the Steam reviews and the Steam forums for ED, I even glance at Star Citizen's forums and notice ED being discussed.

In amongst all the millions of different ideas and opinions about Elite Dangerous I find there is a general consensus that the majority of people who have been playing ED for a while are concerned with the often times baffling development directions that ED has taken since 2.1 - in terms of the headline features always being somewhat bare bones and the updates never really building upon the core gameplay and the plethora of by now 2 year old 'placeholders'.

I'm not about to dig up every single Internet source I've ever encountered because quite frankly I don't need to. The truth is out there, hang around long enough and you'll see the same concerns being voiced by new players. This thread is proof enough of that. I'm genuinley surprised it got so much agreement to be honest because every time these very same issues of development direction have been brought up over the years they've usually been drowned out either by petty bickering or a concerted effort by some to stamp out or derail criticism of any form.

This time it seems to have stuck. I don't quite know why. Some of the criticisms the OP presented have been around for a long time and they have stayed relevant all throughout Horizons in my opinion (I only came into actively participating in/playing ED with Horizons). Perhaps it's because we only have 2.4 left to go and then that's it for Season 2; the proof is in the pudding as they say and now that we finally have almost all of the pudding there's less wiggle room for arguments such as "maybe the next update will focus on fleshing out the core placeholders". Whatever the case it's an interesting thread to follow.

 

[Zambrick]

I don't understand the question, sorry?



Yeah, but that's hardly out of the norm as game development goes. At least for anything that isn't like Madden.

Personally I like that games are things we can share with younger people as they grow older. I still play a couple games that my father first showed me when I was a toddler.

Certainly, impatience is understandable, but that's the crux of the modern world: there's never enough time to do and process everything.



None taken, it's actually interesting to get a detailed explanation (and a bit ironic, regarding Wargaming, considering their Russian-centric fanbase).

I just think there's many things we have in Elite right now that are certainly not "must-haves" - like the impossibly big procedurally generated milky way galaxy at (roughly?) 1:1 scale.

The game has flaws and so much room left to grow that it feels barebones in comparison to what it can become, that's no question, but there's many bits and pieces and quality-of-life additions that clearly show motivation and care about the players that would be wholly absent if Fdev really were going for a minimally viable product.

I will rephrase it. Why are you defending FDEV on a very clear and harmful year and a half development mistake? You cant possibly miss the fact that most of the "new" features are something you would do during the final polish of the game. Power Play, Engineers, SLF, Ship Transfers and Multicrew all needed to be saved for the end of development. Instead they will be underused features while the rest of the game is designed.

4.5 years has been plenty of time to inject any kind of story.

Heck SWTOR went from nothing to published game in the same time. It had thousands of hours of non repeating game play and voice acting for almost every aspect of the game.

I am not expecting that from FDEV because of the budget, but I do hold them accountable for focusing on combat for a year and half while the rest of the game burnt down around them.

Using what they have provided since Launch Development should have been as follows.

1. Launch until Horizons are fine.
2. Horizons
2.1 Guardians - minus SLF / Exploration overhaul. Actually Find Guardians or much more than what we have now.
2.2 The Commanders - minus Multicrew / Introduce Thargoids and the impact the guardians can have with the possible conflict
2.3 Atmospheres - Atmospheric landings on world with minimal to no organic life. Gas Giant interaction / Formadine Rift mystery
2.4 Invasion - Thargoid Invasion and Territory defense / Trading, Mining, and Reputation overhaul

That is how I would have focused on the game design. Sure it sounds like not so much, but if you take into account the impact that all three of the story line impacts would have had on the over all story/gameplay, then there is a tonne of content. There is enough stuff in my version that they could have ridden this train until development was complete. But instead it was focused firstly on combat and secondly on features that would have made more sense near the end of development.

 

[lysan]

Hah, was that Mike, not sure. But I remember what you are referring to. One of the best days on the forum.

Don't mess with the Mike , yup remember that one LOL

Spoiler