It feels like someone is doing their job wrong

[fademist]

Pay you to play a free demo? What?

ofc ... i dont liked the graphics he has (gameplay trailers)

 

[V'larr]

There's no learning required for taking off, landing or piloting. There's no complexity or requirement to plan missions - just pick one from a screen. It's point, click, click, squeeze trigger, press, press, press, and get an achievement with increased rank or rep or credits.

On these two particular points, I disagree - landing and piloting are not at all easy for newcomers, and was a struggle for me even as some who obtained a pilot's license IRL. Customizing keybindings early on is very key, and is now my #1 tip to anyone new coming into Elite.

As for missions, good luck doing an assassination mission without planning for some complexity....

Not to mention you can boil down *anything* to do with computers to simple button switching; I daresay Elite's a bit more complicated than playing Cookie Clicker.

About the using in-game assets comments, can you tell me where I can find - or even see - people and pilots walking around in Elite? You know, like what FDev show in many if not all of their trailers these days?

You mean Holo-mes?

I actually haven't seen any of these trailers myself. If you're sure you haven't confused it with your average Star Citizen trailer, would you mind showing us?

__

No. The fighters in CQC and the ship launched fighters might as well be different ships. They handle completely differently.

I've done both and...they felt pretty much identical to me. *shrug*

I didn't say engineers have nothing to do with planetary landings, but that might as well be the case. The only thing that connects the two is that all engineer bases are on planets. There's no reason why an engineer base couldn't be anywhere else. It's entirely arbitrary and has no impact on the gameplay. You land on their base just like you do on any other base or station.

I mean, the fact they're on *planets* seems like a clear connection to me, that and the fact half the materials you want can only be gotten via planetary-surface-vacuuming in an SRV....

And how do you want to visit Engineers, by them catching you in a gigantic butterfly net? You need to include being in a dock, else how can they access your ship (or in gameplay terms, how can you safely tweak numbers around without breaking other stuff without being in a hangar)?

I don't think some vague and hidden indirect interactions with the BGS add any noteworthy gameplay or cohesion to the game. Doing stuff for powerplay factions and doing regular missions are governed by two separate systems, which doesn't have to be the case.
Why does it need a separate kind of cargo? Why does it need separate npc targets? Why does everything have to be separate?

I admit, the disconnect between powerplay and minor factions & the BGS does feel quite unintuitive. But they *do* somewhat, if indirectly, have influence on each other, and that was the point I was goin' for. I have no argument against wanting the correlation between major powers, major factions, and minor factions to be made more direct.
__

Precisely. I love simulators, I've been playing DCSs and lots of indie space/air simulators for quite a while, I know the level of complexity this genre can achieve.

Still people say "Elite has a very steep learning curve". LOL. No it doesn't.

Having helped a few fellow twitch viewers and now a close friend of mine get into the game, I assure you, it does, and your view is skewed by having already mastered the curve yourself to the point that it no longer even requires much thought. I'm in the same boat, and it takes me aback when I stop to think about things that are new to other players and need to be learned first that I myself don't even think about anymore.

What he does have to learn is why an slf can be reprinted and an SRV no, why one of his friends can join him from whatever location but his slf pilot can't, why ammo can be synthesized but heat sinks no, why can he read a virtual newspaper from wherever he wants but if he wants to know the prices within the same system he has to dock at a station.
The learning curve is not given by gameplay or simulation complexity but by arbitrary and convoluted game design.

All this, if I brush over the testiness, seems like legitimate criticism to me.

Personally I'd make SRV and SLF hangars behave the same, consider just removing synthesis & instead adjusting ammo counts for everything to whatever's reasonable (or perhaps also changing AFMUs to have that ability), and *definitely* prioritize an ingame version of eddb.io - or at *least* find a means of making a market-API available for those tools so they no longer have to rely purely on player-submitted info.

 

[NMS]

The flight model is superb - it feels nice, you get the feeling of weight and inertia and it's suited to tight dogfighting. It captures the essence of the original Elite and does it justice.

The audio feeback works amazingly well with it, also in combat.

It's just a real shame that all this time you spend in your ship in normal flight mode is supported by hugely underwhelming mechanics - respawning enemies, magically reappearing mission cargo between instances, pop-up points of interest and a complete lack of anything that feels alive or dynamic.

And...! The alien ruins was actually a genius idea, but I was gutted to find that the interaction with it was 'pick up the thing and take it to the thing', which instantly reminded me of a dozen odd 8 bit ZX Spectrum platformers from back in the day.

Someone in this thread commented on the layering of game mechanics which are becoming more convoluted - I see this too, the mechanics are messy, it's a messy game in terms of its rules and mechanics.

It's very difficult to imagine how the gameplay as a whole can be made more dynamic and reactive to the player, more meaningful or persistent, with the big jumble of arbitrary mechanics that honestly I've lost track of which things have been changed or what player guides are even still relevant.

It's still a game I find myself getting lost in and it looks unbelievably beautiful, but the gameplay still isn't there.

I've been looking at that powerplay map now for a year and wondering when Frontier are going to start doing something with it.

My honest deep down gut feeling is that the gameplay design equivalent of Gordon Ramsey needs to visit Frontier Towers in a flurry of swearing and questioning stares.

No one has ever doubted the potential that the game has. The basics are well done. The problem is that it is more than two years and the game goes sideways and not forward. The mechanics of the game since the launch remain basic and stagnant in time. Worst of all, it seems that development is conducted in a grotesque way and everything indicates that it will remain in this way. Nerfs or buffs without sense of direction, that sooner or later end up going back, downgrade focused on the consoles, and no attention the mechanics that already exist in the game but are in bare bones. Pity.

 

[Bane Six Echo]

I'm not sure what I can say that hasn't already been said. The TL;DR version is I have lost faith in Frontier.

In my opinion there are three scenarios:

1. Frontier doesn't agree with the sentiment that Elite: Dangerous is "a mile wide and an inch deep", and thinks the game is on the right track.
2. Frontier does agree with the sentiment, but they don't know how to fix it, or are technically unable to fix it with the current engine and/or employees.
3. Frontier does agree with the sentiment, and they're going to take the time to fix/develop/integrate all of the existing mechanics before bolting on more half-developed, disconnected mechanics.

The third scenario is obviously what a lot of us want, including me, but I think it's the least likely outcome given their track record so far.

I used to love this game. I bought the Lifetime Expansion Pass, I've spent hundreds of dollars in the store, and hundreds more on computer peripherals. I've logged almost 700 hours in the cockpit. I've already got my money's worth out of it, even if I never play this game again.

But I want a reason to play it again. I want a reason to love it again. I just don't have any faith in Frontier to give me a reason.

 

[NMS]

I'm not sure what I can say that hasn't already been said. The TL;DR version is I have lost faith in Frontier.

In my opinion there are three scenarios:

1. Frontier doesn't agree with the sentiment that Elite: Dangerous is "a mile wide and an inch deep", and thinks the game is on the right track.
2. Frontier does agree with the sentiment, but they don't know how to fix it, or are technically unable to fix it with the current engine and/or employees.
3. Frontier does agree with the sentiment, and they're going to take the time to fix/develop/integrate all of the existing mechanics before bolting on more half-developed, disconnected mechanics.

The third scenario is obviously what a lot of us want, including me, but I think it's the least likely outcome given their track record so far.

I used to love this game. I bought the Lifetime Expansion Pass, I've spent hundreds of dollars in the store, and hundreds more on computer peripherals. I've logged almost 700 hours in the cockpit. I've already got my money's worth out of it, even if I never play this game again.

But I want a reason to play it again. I want a reason to love it again. I just don't have any faith in Frontier to give me a reason.

After more than two years, I really do not believe in number 3. But I'd love to be surprised.

 

[Zambrick]

Don't take the bait Zambrick



And you're both going to get this thread locked in a jiffy. Discuss the posts not the posters, moderators' motto.
We know people won't change their opinions, and they don't have to.

Meanwhile: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/345865-Changes-Coming-to-Multi-crew it seems that giving feedback is finally paying off. Changes to trolls firing utilities, changes to payouts... I think giving constructive feedback (which is the majority of the posts in this thread) is good. Multicrew is still less viable earning method than winging up, but its easier and will not pay peanuts like it did on release.


It should, however I am not sure the players would like the outcome in the beginning ;-P

I put he or she on ignore list so its done. I cant stand people who are willfully ignorant of reality while they try to convince people that they are correct in some way. I think people who spread rumors and untruths are harmful to any population. In the case of EDs gaming community or potential new players its setting up untruths and blatant lies as some sort of truth.

Then when a new consumer tries the game based upon the recommendation of the deluded player, they feel lied to and they leave the community forever. Not everyone is required to drink their KoolAid

As far as their design process is concerned. They did some of the pre work correctly. However launch and the continued addition of structure instead of content in patches is EDs shortcoming.

1 They did focus the app project globally as needed and kept all design and implementation work in a singular location. As soon as you start parting out code and design to different geographic/physical locations the quality and efficiency tanks. (See Mass Efect Andromedas long distance leveraged facial design issues.)

2. They did verify that there was public/global interest and viability by running a good kickstarter campaign. Kickstarter has been a boon for game and app design process. It kills 2 birds with one stone. Funding and Interest/viability.

3. The big fail was the content aspect. The first thing you have when designing an application is to provide structure and content. We can all agree that a tonne of structure was added. Loads of it in fact. For the most part structure has been the focus of every single patch since launch. The closest thing we have to intractable content is the Broken power play mechanic. Meanwhile there is still nothing to do unless you RP it or its hand fed to us in insignificant amounts.

This would be similar to creating a piece of banking software for a company in Spain that needs an app that is in Spanish. Instead you have created this amazing banking application, but the only language pack available is French. You have to have the content in the application in order to make the structure/mechanics viable.

 

[Sardu]

I'm not sure what I can say that hasn't already been said. The TL;DR version is I have lost faith in Frontier.

In my opinion there are three scenarios:

1. Frontier doesn't agree with the sentiment that Elite: Dangerous is "a mile wide and an inch deep", and thinks the game is on the right track.
2. Frontier does agree with the sentiment, but they don't know how to fix it, or are technically unable to fix it with the current engine and/or employees.
3. Frontier does agree with the sentiment, and they're going to take the time to fix/develop/integrate all of the existing mechanics before bolting on more half-developed, disconnected mechanics.

The third scenario is obviously what a lot of us want, including me, but I think it's the least likely outcome given their track record so far.

I used to love this game. I bought the Lifetime Expansion Pass, I've spent hundreds of dollars in the store, and hundreds more on computer peripherals. I've logged almost 700 hours in the cockpit. I've already got my money's worth out of it, even if I never play this game again.

But I want a reason to play it again. I want a reason to love it again. I just don't have any faith in Frontier to give me a reason.

This is a good synopsis of where we could possibly be. We all want #3. We're all terrified that it's actually #1.

 

[Gully Foyle]

What a toothache this thread is: Amateur armchair backseat developer ALERT!

FAOFF isn't even particularly accurate but it's certainly closer to what actual Newtonian physics are.

I implore people who want to debate this to download the Evochron Legacy demo (300mb, cool game too) and see for yourself what it's like.

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Completely asinine rebuttal.

From a teen perhaps.
The clues are in the spelling and clumsy syntax

Cash me ouside - how bout dat!

 

[Dbrn47]

But didn't Michael Brookes say a long time ago that he considered exploration as feature complete?

Either you had a couple or he did. There's no way that it should be considered feature complete.

 

[Ian Skippy]

FAOFF isn't even particularly accurate but it's certainly closer to what actual Newtonian physics are.

I implore people who want to debate this to download the Evochron Legacy demo (300mb, cool game too) and see for yourself what it's like.

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Completely asinine rebuttal.

Evochrons version of 'fa off' has automated counter thrust making it MUCH easier than ED's FA off.

 

[Dbrn47]

Evochrons version of 'fa off' has automated counter thrust making it MUCH easier than ED's FA off.

Not that I'm aware of. Otherwise you wouldn't endlessly float off at whatever speed you are going.

 

[Dbrn47]

You get banned for calling out the devs even if you don't insult them and have a ''mild'' opinion of them, I know it's crazy, so much for freedom of speech and censorship right?

Freedom of speech is the right to articulate one's opinions and ideas without fear of government retaliation or censorship, or societal sanction.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Freedom+of+Speech

It is a legal term that applies to government, not private bodies, especially not private forums. Private bodies are allowed to have their own rules regarding behavior and there are usually rules to warn you that acting like a "big meanie" gets your privileges (note privileges, not rights) taken away. It is also more complicated than "I get to say whatever I want, whenever I want." People really would do well to understand what Freedom of Speech actually is and where it actually applies. They would also do well to realize that people get away with quite a bit around here, as long as you have a useful and constructive opinion. Hell, even many times when you don't, you aren't given infractions.

Any talk otherwise is just ignorance. We have threads like this because they are, in fact, allowed as long as they remain or are salvageable as legitimate and constructive feedback. Senseless vitriol doesn't help anyone. What I see here is you essentially blaming one person and there is much more to the development team than one person. If it was indeed one person, I'm sure there are internal channels and processes that would rectify that situation. Us being on the outside of it, yelling in and spitting venom isn't necessary. However, continual civil and constructive feedback or even feelings without outright attacks are welcome and needed. With it being a privately controlled forum, they and the moderation team get to decide what is or isn't those things, not us. There are also processes for disputing those rulings as well.

There is a way to convey your displeasure and talking to everyone like they are your buddies on Discord isn't going to always be welcome or proper.

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Again, that's incredibly vague and not any kind of "confirmation" whatsoever as you claim. Technically they have "taken steps" to implementing other galaxies too, as we can see them. They are there! When will we see other galaxies available for us to fly in? An answer of "we are working on it" would factually not be entirely incorrect, as you can physically see these other galaxies in the game today, they are graphically modeled. It doesn't mean we will actually ever see other galaxies implemented, nor that they are planned, it just means that a vague directionless answer to the question can be interpreted in a myriad of ways. Frontier frequently answers questions like this, the latest livestream Q&A was one of the worst yet for this, and it does not reinforce any kind of confidence nor hope in the customers who bother to listen.

For reference, this is what developer "confirmation" looks like in the videogame industry, from the excellent dev studio SCS Studios on American Truck Simulator:



This is one small update, it came with pics of the new content. They regularly release updates to the players on upcoming features, changes to the long term roadmap, player feedback and ideas which they have decided to incorporate into their schedule. We know that:

• Heavy trailers & cargo will be the next update, with heavy duty truck mods too.
• New Mexico will be the next DLC state, they've shown us pics.
• More trucks are waiting for licensing to release, and others are in production right now. We've seen pics and vids.
• For future DLC states they are going up the west coast and eventually to Alaska. We've seen pics of new areas being worked on.
• Additional weather is in the works, they've shown early versions and have talked about the development of it.

See, this is what "confirmation" looks like. This is what an openly discussed roadmap looks like. This is one reason why ATS and ETS2 are two hugely successful and profitable games, and it's why the customers are supremely loyal and devoted to SCS, because they feel connected, they feel communicated with, they are in the loop and confident that the game is improving, they know HOW it is improving.

Sleutelbos, you can't even tell me one thing that will be in 2.4. You can't tell me one thing that will for certain be in Season 3. You can't even tell me with absolute certainty any one feature that will be implemented into Elite in the future, ever. None of us can, because Frontier hasn't "confirmed" anything at all for Elite from last week on out. Not a single thing.

This silence on Frontier's part is a large reason for why the OP, Silvere, feels the way he does. It's a huge reason why many of those in this thread sympathize and agree with him. Consumer confidence is earned by action and lost by inaction, and communication does a lot to create it. Guess which direction Elite has been moving towards over the past two years? And why?

A simple change in policy could rectify that. If Frontier started actually talking and sharing their plans it would go a very long way towards giving players hope and confidence.

Great example and I agree.

 

[Mengy]

Either you had a couple or he did. There's no way that it should be considered feature complete.

Nah it’s true, Michael Brookes did say that Frontier felt exploration was in a good place, like a year ago or so.

This pretty much proves that no one on the dev team does exploring of any kind.

 

[Dbrn47]

Nah it’s true, Michael Brookes did say that Frontier felt exploration was in a good place, like a year ago or so.

This pretty much proves that no one on the dev team does exploring of any kind.

That makes me sad... I do hope things we have brought up have changed their mind... It certainly doesn't feel feature complete.

 

[DefiledDragon]

Either you had a couple or he did. There's no way that it should be considered feature complete.

I believe the words he used weren't "feature complete" but "solid".

 

[Ian Skippy]

That makes me sad... I do hope things we have brought up have changed their mind... It certainly doesn't feel feature complete.

Its not feature complete, and Michael Brookes never said that. Salty explorers intentionally twist his words to justify their own bitterness, which is why you dont see Michael and co post a lot anymore. He said that the core mechanics are solid. So dont expect the idea of jumping into systems, SC to planets and scanning with the scanners change. That doesnt mean they wont add to it.

 

[Dbrn47]

I believe the words he used weren't "feature complete" but "solid".

Ah, so more like "Solid (enough to move on to other things for now)." Still doesn't feel right, but it's better than "feature complete."

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Its not feature complete, and Michael Brookes never said that. Salty explorers intentionally twist his words to justify their own bitterness, which is why you dont see Michael and co post a lot anymore. He said that the core mechanics are solid. So dont expect the idea of jumping into systems, SC to planets and scanning with the scanners change. That doesnt mean they wont add to it.

Sounds about right.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Not that I'm aware of. Otherwise you wouldn't endlessly float off at whatever speed you are going.

Thats the speed limit, I'm talking direction.

 

[Dbrn47]

Thats the speed limit, I'm talking direction.

As far as I'm aware, when you turn it all off, it's all off and you have to manually input thrust direction.

 

[Ian Skippy]

As far as I'm aware, when you turn it all off, it's all off and you have to manually input thrust direction.

Ah, good. Last time I checked EM (some years ago) roll was always counter-thrusted when you released controls. Will have to check later.