And if these sites and tools weren't as valuable in the end as the third party developers thought they were, this would have gone exactly no where. The fact remains though that these 3pd's are extremely valuable directly and indirectly in every facet of this game, and to both the players and FDev. The thing is, if the 3pd sites and apps went away, it wouldn't be any skin off the backs of the 3pd's. They'd just have more free time for other things. The only ones who would lose would be the players and FDev. Yes FDev would lose too. Sure, there would be replacements in time, but at what cost? How many players would be lost not bothering to wait for new apps and sites? Many players have long since passed the normal thresheshold for hours in a game, and without some of these things, the game would have long since run its course.
#support3rdparty - Why we temporarily shut down our sites.
- Thread starter themroc
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And if these sites and tools weren't as valuable in the end as the third party developers thought they were, this would have gone exactly no where. The fact remains though that these 3pd's are extremely valuable directly and indirectly in every facet of this game, and to both the players and FDev. The thing is, if the 3pd sites and apps went away, it wouldn't be any skin off the backs of the 3pd's. They'd just have more free time for other things. The only ones who would lose would be the players and FDev. Yes FDev would lose too. Sure, there would be replacements in time, but at what cost? How many players would be lost not bothering to wait for new apps and sites? Many players have long since passed the normal thresheshold for hours in a game, and without some of these things, the game would have long since run its course.
Ozric
Volunteer Moderator
Ignorance
Concise, but not complete
I have at no point claimed Frontier are entirely innocent, but neither are all of the tools.
Actually technically that makes it an ultimatum, not extortion. If you look it up in the dictionary, extortion has to be a criminal threat not simply an ultimatum. Your definition of extortion would include things like industrial action and many types of negotiation that occur in business every day. I mean if a landlord says to a tenant, "if you don't pay the rent I'll have you evicted" are they an extortionist? Or simply a business person. Let's not assign criminal words to non criminal actions.
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Well I for one supported them because I felt they had a valid point, I've not felt the need to use the 3rd party apps since I got access to jamerson about 18 months ago.
How are unpaid volunteers deemed extortionists if they inform you that they are prepared to stop supporting their 3rd party tools if you make what they do impossible to achieve?
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It seems you're addressing me as if I'm a third party developer, I'm not, I just support them in this.
"Customers". The 3PDs have no customers. They aren't paid. They simply have "users" who owe them nothing and they owe nothing to - they just provide a free service to be used or not.
Those users supported this because we believe in what they do, and many of us (especially those of us who are developers by trade) know exactly where they're coming from and that the very existence of those sites was threatened by the status quo. That's a very valid point to us, and frankly it's a valid point to FD as well, as demonstrated by Ed's posts.
Now, the methods. We will never know for 100% certain that if they had written the same post without threat of taking down the sites it would have had the same outcome. Maybe it would, and you are free to say you would have preferred to see that approach attempted. I, for one, choose to accept them at their word that they had tried for several months to take care of this privately and they felt like they had no recourse. We can agree to disagree on that one.
Yeah, I'd say we only disagree on the method. That is all I am commenting on. An appeal for the Forum's help, would have served their purpose, but a show of strength, like they perpetrated, was intended to force FD into an action. It was unnecessary, and in poor taste. It smacks of arrogance.
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Sorry, my post was directed at Ozric. A lot of the moderators have replied without making any mention they are taking their hat off... Have no problems with personal opinions.
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They did ask FD for help. Repeatedly.
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Cool. My apologies for misreading. I then redirect my statement to Ozric themselves and this thread in general
I would be happy to use the word ultimatum, but it avoids the fact that the group expected others to force FD to the table. I'll stick with extortion, thank you. I have no trouble using a little 'poetic license' to make my point. Being pedantic about a definition like this really goes no where in addressing the issue discussed.
I was once part of a movement with a game that tried using similar tactics. The game I'm thinking of, we had some awesome 3P tools and support from our community. Some of these "gurus" helped with finding alternative drivers that allowed players with outdated computers, continue to play for months when "routine" updates (features) often killed half of our population. Some of you who came to Elite from that game, may recall "Updates 16 and 17," about 3 years ago. Our stance never changed, but neither did the game developers.' In the end, our sit ins, demonstrations, colorful ship names, and boycotts---did not work.
I know from experience that a " game strike" will drive a wedge between the developers and the community. It often destroys open lines of communication. It fosters grudges between overly opinionated players and groups that have no business being involved in the first place. The biggest reason a "game strike" is ineffective, is because we already paid the cover charge to get in the door. FD has our money. They can use it as they see fit. They have little to lose in this scenario, and they can ride that wave for years, believe it. We players have more to lose in regards to the 3P tools. They could ultimately disappear. We could lose much game time figuring things out manually. We could become disgruntled enough to move on to another game. When we get there, the same thing will eventually happen again. I guarantee it.
I've been through a few actual "real life strikes." Two were resolved peacefully at the table, one got violent. The mere mention of a strike, often puts all parties immediately on the defensive (or defencive). It is viewed as a hostile action, fosters intolerance and hasty decisions, which are later regretted but never overturned. This has a tendency to create bad blood for everyone, not just the parties which are in a state of disagreement. While I understand this is an apples and oranges comparison, and the final results won't end in violence, they will come to a similar conclusion, sadly.
I assume, and maybe incorrectly, that the 3P's took the initiative to develop their highly useful and insightfully created Elite D tools. I also can only assume that they were given notice by FD, that their collective valiant efforts at such undertakings, was "on their time, and their dime." Like it or not, their tireless work and development became a labor (or labour) of love. My sincerest thanks, gratitude, ++Rep and much respect to them for that.
IMHO, If Frontier is opposed to "officially" supporting the 3P's, maybe some of the development team members could "unofficially" support the 3P's. I'm not saying they should risk their jobs, but maybe they could help on their own time. Maybe Mr. Braben and his management staff could "give their blessing" or at least turn a blind eye to that help. He's holds pod casts, so ask him. Get in his face, publicly. That is more likely to have influence, than any player strike having a decisive impact.
Rooks
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I'm glad they got talks underway. That is better than a perpetually degeneration of the situation. Inf Reps for all
I know from experience that a " game strike" will drive a wedge between the developers and the community. It often destroys open lines of communication. It fosters grudges between overly opinionated players and groups that have no business being involved in the first place. The biggest reason a "game strike" is ineffective, is because we already paid the cover charge to get in the door. FD has our money. They can use it as they see fit. They have little to lose in this scenario, and they can ride that wave for years, believe it. We players have more to lose in regards to the 3P tools. They could ultimately disappear. We could lose much game time figuring things out manually. We could become disgruntled enough to move on to another game. When we get there, the same thing will eventually happen again. I guarantee it.
I've been through a few actual "real life strikes." Two were resolved peacefully at the table, one got violent. The mere mention of a strike, often puts all parties immediately on the defensive (or defencive). It is viewed as a hostile action, fosters intolerance and hasty decisions, which are later regretted but never overturned. This has a tendency to create bad blood for everyone, not just the parties which are in a state of disagreement. While I understand this is an apples and oranges comparison, and the final results won't end in violence, they will come to a similar conclusion, sadly.
I assume, and maybe incorrectly, that the 3P's took the initiative to develop their highly useful and insightfully created Elite D tools. I also can only assume that they were given notice by FD, that their collective valiant efforts at such undertakings, was "on their time, and their dime." Like it or not, their tireless work and development became a labor (or labour) of love. My sincerest thanks, gratitude, ++Rep and much respect to them for that.
IMHO, If Frontier is opposed to "officially" supporting the 3P's, maybe some of the development team members could "unofficially" support the 3P's. I'm not saying they should risk their jobs, but maybe they could help on their own time. Maybe Mr. Braben and his management staff could "give their blessing" or at least turn a blind eye to that help. He's holds pod casts, so ask him. Get in his face, publicly. That is more likely to have influence, than any player strike having a decisive impact.
Rooks
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I'm glad they got talks underway. That is better than a perpetually degeneration of the situation. Inf Reps for all
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Isn't everyone happy that the site are back up?
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...wn-our-sites?p=5447133&viewfull=1#post5447133
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...wn-our-sites?p=5447133&viewfull=1#post5447133
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I wouldn't put it like that, because volunteers. More likely, while engrossed in the beta / game build, API porting is bound NOT to be the first thing on the dev's list (and shouldn't be) but when the main build is in big flux, which it was in 2.3, that causes a problem to the 3rd party developers, who really are right to point out that they provide a cracking support system, despite not being core game code.
In all these things, you always need things to come to a head so the communication goes on the checklist for next time there's an update, and if nothing else FD now know exactly who to contact ..
So the major 3rd party API devs now have a Trade Union Committee .. lets see what happens if they decide they don't want 2.4 to go ahead from beta (for example) because it messes with their 3rd party code !? Tongue in cheek, but the point stands .. prior notice to API devs potentially (could) spell .. spoilers. Expect NDA's?
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The comment referred to was about using the OP to ask for the Forums support, to get FD to the table. It had nothing to do with FD's help.
I think I've been convinced by both you and Ozric that coming out at DEFCON 1 was not the best way to go.
There is potential this could have been handled by through an Open Letter and discussion with the community. Only escalating to this level if Frontier truly ignored it.
Sites? Pfft, we have a new game now, it's called "FD Forum: Gone Postal", and boy oh boy is it exciting!
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