its not silly, its normal for online multiplayer games.
the game is a simulation with ingame politics, - why should it not also simulate change of law? i mean thats what politics are about
Deliberate Ramming
- Thread starter shadragon
- Start date
its not silly, its normal for online multiplayer games.
the game is a simulation with ingame politics, - why should it not also simulate change of law? i mean thats what politics are about
If they have found that murderhoboing has ultimately affected the game in a negative way, it is not silly to make rules that either eliminate or slow it down to a more reasonable level. It is also reasonable to provide feedback that keeps such rules to a level which people can still play the game that way if it is their preferred play style. I think some need to realize that Sandro has stated again and again that this thread has become about feedback, so that we can all work toward an agreeable solution. Constantly resisting with one liners that miss the point isn't conducive to working toward an agreeable solution. If I was a murderhobo, I'd personally be suggesting ways to make the reward more than salt, so the reward would be worth the risk, but that's just me.
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It's great to see that the dev team is making solid progress with conceptualising C&P. So far the community responses in this thread (from all viewpoints) paint a very encouraging picture of how effective these ideas would be.
I do however have some concerns about the focus on disparity between the attacker and victim's ships and combat ranks. While attacking new players should of course attract a larger karma hit, I don't think it's fair to declare people who have been playing longer and choose to fly a high end combat ship for PvE purposes "fair game" for griefing. Legitimate players shouldn't feel pressured to avoid a significant fraction of the game's content (i.e. late game ships, engineering and all combat).
Players of similar rank and ship power may of course wish to engage in consensual PvP without karma implications, but that could be easily addressed by simply making the current "report crimes against me" function also affect karma. This would also be useful for PvP players with dissimilar rank and ship power who nonetheless wish engage in consensual duels.
Additionally, it's my understanding Support is/was willing to reset a player's combat rank upon their request. Unless there exists a practical means to merge those players' past combat ranks with their current ranks en masse, factoring combat rank into karma calculations would cause players who have had their rank reset to enjoy an ingame advantage. At the very least, it would be prudent to immediately put an end to further requests for rank resets now that the community realises the advantages a low combat rank will potentially offer in the future.
I do however have some concerns about the focus on disparity between the attacker and victim's ships and combat ranks. While attacking new players should of course attract a larger karma hit, I don't think it's fair to declare people who have been playing longer and choose to fly a high end combat ship for PvE purposes "fair game" for griefing. Legitimate players shouldn't feel pressured to avoid a significant fraction of the game's content (i.e. late game ships, engineering and all combat).
Players of similar rank and ship power may of course wish to engage in consensual PvP without karma implications, but that could be easily addressed by simply making the current "report crimes against me" function also affect karma. This would also be useful for PvP players with dissimilar rank and ship power who nonetheless wish engage in consensual duels.
Additionally, it's my understanding Support is/was willing to reset a player's combat rank upon their request. Unless there exists a practical means to merge those players' past combat ranks with their current ranks en masse, factoring combat rank into karma calculations would cause players who have had their rank reset to enjoy an ingame advantage. At the very least, it would be prudent to immediately put an end to further requests for rank resets now that the community realises the advantages a low combat rank will potentially offer in the future.
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For me personally the thought of reducing Pilots Federation rebuy insurance to 0% has made sense for some time, as an organisation they have always said they find it undesirable. But its far too punitive, regardless of how long it takes to creep into becoming a reality for the player and shouldn't happen without alternative options to the player.
I've suggested a few times alternatives to the Pilot Federation that would offer a different level of cover due to the nature of their members, maybe a mafia syndicate, pirate organisation etc etc.
It could offer the player an actual "life" choice that was visible to other players, this would then give a heads up to others as to what these people were like etc.
Could be very easily incorporated into Besiegers excellent system security post.
I've suggested a few times alternatives to the Pilot Federation that would offer a different level of cover due to the nature of their members, maybe a mafia syndicate, pirate organisation etc etc.
It could offer the player an actual "life" choice that was visible to other players, this would then give a heads up to others as to what these people were like etc.
Could be very easily incorporated into Besiegers excellent system security post.
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But do you guys think like billionaire player-killers? Do your cogs turn like our cogs? How many billions do you have? And how many hundreds or thousands of players have you killed?
You see, I am a billionaire player-killer and what I say is based around how my stripped-down min/maxed purist mind works.
We are time and motion specialists. Min/maxers. Efficiency is second nature to us.
Basically, every second of inconvenience of being forced to PvE, not PvP is, to us, a second wasted.
I would sooner lose a billion creds than be locked out of Shinrarta for one week. I really mean that. I really would rather lose a billion creds.
This is why I think that something focused around Pilots Federation rep would mean something to people with my mindset, being those of us who organise our weeks around maximising our ability to inflict harm to our enemies (however narrowly, or broadly, we might define them).
Of course we do, why do you think there is so much resistance to things in this game that create barriers to gameplay? Billionaire PvPers aren't the only ones that want or need to be able to get on with it and do what they enjoy most.
Seems like you are quite happy with that.
You the one who basically helped inflate a troll war on the forum in favor of anti-PVP debate in a troll like manner.
You a 'mod'.
This game advertised pvp, it advertised that you could hunt fellow CMDRs. It has been allowed since the games launch, the game has survived and gotten more players involved just fine yet here we are now.
It is the developers fault there is no proper way to counter people in PVP with things such as galaxy map notifications where people are being destroyed by cmdrs, proper bounty mechanics and more incentives for people to fight against the bad guys. That is on the game.
It is much easier for you the lazy player who demands an end to PVP interaction and of course the developers who for a low cost can remove the insurance of a ship due to a karma points system based on rank or ship type.
Frankly this state of affairs is disgusting.
You should not be a mod because of how skewed and biased your viewpoint is, as has been demonstrated many times the so called gankers/griefers of the community have put fourth many great ideas for an improved CNP system.
Instead due to the pure toxicity of the anti-PVP community and the blatant incompetence of the games developers we will probably be getting a band aid solution that results in a large portion of the community moving on to other things.
Like star citizen, around the time this eventually gets put in i'm sure it will be in a more stable state. At least there they have great ideas for their CNP system. Compared to the overly knee-jerk reaction caused here by the immense amount of whinge from a minority faction in the community.
Ehh...if private groups could turn the system on/off, that would be fine, working in reverse like that, but I doubt that would happen.
Same here. Though surely I'll make use of it once I do have access, it's a bad way to address the player population as a whole, though the underlying methodry isn't that off-center in my view.
I just think this would be simpler if people had two official separate buckets they can hop into according to their preferences. That's what Mobius has been essentially providing all this while, after all - a second bucket for the folks like me who think it's nice to say hi to other players now and then but have no patience or time to spare for murder-happy gankers and exploit-griefers.
But there's always going to be limitations with that, and a widespread debate about C&P and all of this, so long as that's left up to private groups only.
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But you don't think like a griefer. Your cogs don't turn like their cogs.
If you were inclined to murder a random PvE player (not saying you ever are), the prospect of having legitimate PvP made less convenient would stay your hand. Legitimate PvP duels are your primary motivation for playing, so you'd sacrifice all other activities before compromising your ability to engage in them. But the C&P system's punishments aren't being tailored to serve as a deterrent to players like you.
A griefer's primary motivation for playing is to ruin the leisure time of other people. The experiences of other game devs over the past twenty years have shown that they are willing to sacrifice any other gameplay to serve that end, inconveniencing them won't cut it. If the C&P system doesn't have the teeth to fully strip a player of the means to grief, it will do nothing.
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Its affected the game because they didn't provide a focus for pvp the best solution to a greifer is a bounty hunter and some very very stiff credit penalties for crimes.
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Thats not a bad shout given how sandro seems wedded to this karma idea which would end pvp crime entirely.
David Braben also stated that "PvP should be rare and meaningful" - it is neither rare (at player choke points), or for the players who get blown up indiscriminately, meaningful - well, I suppose the really meaningful part of that is when they read the rebuy screen, just because some Yahoo decided they should have it be upon them.
But apart from that, getting blown up by a rabid murderhoboer'er'er'er is just about the most meaningless thing that can happen in-game, apart from having an RNGineer squander your hard-earned materials in a wasted roll that is
But sure go ahead, all - treat the game like it's just a mindless 3D Space Shoot Game. After all, it's what it's basically been since release, and Frontier have still done nothing about that so that must logically be their intention.
In which case, no one should take the game so seriously that they form groups, embark on internecine skullduggery, Science!, be deeply sad when their hero/heroine dies, and whatnot, because it's really just a game of "Generic 3D Space Shooty Game" at heart.
Hmmm. On that note, I may just become a deranged explorer, seeking out my fellow explorers and murdering every single one of them I encounter - because those two trips to Lady Sag. A* done my head well in. And I keep hearing her sirene call for me to return to her black embrace. And I have a Cutter RNGineered up the wazoo, with an equally squalid collection of RNGgineered weaponry - and she does around 30LY per jump too. Why not indeed? It would be especially delectable blowing up some explorer who's just returned from a 5-month jaunt, who has multiple millions in exploration data. Because the game is designed that way, and my actions would be perfectly legit within the game, no?
I broadly agree with this less the insults, this should have been handled long ago but any debate has been stifled by folk who just wanted PVP reduced to a consent based activity, reducing pirates to beggars.
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David Braben also stated that "PvP should be rare and meaningful" - it is neither rare (at player choke points), or for the players who get blown up indiscriminately, meaningful - well, I suppose the really meaningful part of that is when they read the rebuy screen, just because some Yahoo decided they should have it be upon them.
But apart from that, getting blown up by a rabid murderhoboer'er'er'er is just about the most meaningless thing that can happen in-game, apart from having an RNGineer squander your hard-earned materials in a wasted roll that is
But sure go ahead, all - treat the game like it's just a mindless 3D Space Shoot Game. After all, it's what it's basically been since release, and Frontier have still done nothing about that so that must logically be their intention.
In which case, no one should take the game so seriously that they form groups, embark on internecine skullduggery, Science!, be deeply sad when their hero/heroine dies, and whatnot, because it's really just a game of "Generic 3D Space Shooty Game" at heart.
Hmmm. On that note, I may just become a deranged explorer, seeking out my fellow explorers and murdering every single one of them I encounter - because those two trips to Lady Sag. A* done my head well in. And I keep hearing her sirene call for me to return to her black embrace. And I have a Cutter RNGineered up the wazoo, with an equally squalid collection of RNGgineered weaponry - and she does around 30LY per jump too. Why not indeed? It would be especially delectable blowing up some explorer who's just returned from a 5-month jaunt, who has multiple millions in exploration data. Because the game is designed that way, and my actions would be perfectly legit within the game, no?
Thats the mistress devourer to you, who are you to question her hunger for souls and my desire to serve her needs.
One thing I haven't seen said in this thread that Sandro and his team should take into account when coming up with this C&P system is WHY do people murder hobo? I will tell you why I murder hobo, I do it because of a lack content, nothing to do... if I wasn't for Canonn or Colonia I would of just set about murdering full time.
@Gunnet this is a complex and (to me) I think complimentary (thx) observation. But even so, a reply:
- What I was saying was that even if other PvP min/maxers might be less scrupulous in their murder-objectives, they and I share the same horror of wasted time.
All I mean is that, however limited in scope it might be, I still think that loss of Pilots Federation rep has the potential to be a quick and partial, though not toothless, disincentive to murder.
It also works really well, lore-wise.
Stop attacking moderator status as if it's some badge that makes anyone beyond anything in opinion or discussion. He's here to enforce the board rules in discussions he isn't a part of and he is allowed to have his opinion, just like you. I actually find it refreshing that moderators here can act like the human beings they are instead of robotic entities that are just here to delete or scold.
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You did an excellent job at the Ancient Ruins sites [up][up][up][up][up][up][up][up][up]
Hi Sandro,
I still think a "rep" system is good - and works well in many other games, please don't be swayed by the vocal minority who have had it good for so long.
It would allows the freedom of choice but still imposes real consequences for sustained unlawful and negative behaviour to others - the entire bubble should not be a "faux-anarchy" system.
Gaining a negative reputation and being forced to live on the fringes of society to avoid persecution by the law (or just space controlled by a specific aggrieved major faction?) - simply sounds plausible and effective, and may be indeed desired by some pilots. For others, who desire to "come back to society", there should a way for them to grind back their reputation to neutral/positive if they want to - such as farming bounties / completing missions etc, in anarchy / faction-free systems for example.
This effectively gives plenty of weight to such decisions like ganking beginner players in the LHS 3447 area and basically driving them away from the game (Which has been featured on Reddit recently here: https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDange...beginner_and_getting_ganked_by_anacondas_and/), and other completely one-sided harrasment with no gain to the agressor except the farming of tears.
Of course all bets are off in Anarchy or Faction-less systems, I noticed that many CGs and Generation Ship etc are usually set in Anarchy systems, so the pirate playstyle for big player events is still completely viable and indeed encouraged.
To be honest after the "Security System Check" when charging for jump display came to the game HUD a while back - that warns you about Anarchy or Hostile systems, I thought Frontier were about to implement a big change to crime and punishment back then? (iterating the fact that it wouldn't apply to Anarchy/Hostile systems). This would give weight to that warning when jumping, because at the moment it means very little - the entire game in OPEN is potentially a Anarchy/Hostile system at the moment - because punishment is so low.
An effective crime/punishment system would simply mean a less segregated community where 1000's of players would be happy to play in open instead of solo/private groups - because it is simply not there right now. Thanks for working on addressing this important issue.
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Isnt that a bit like 'awww muuuuuum, i'm boooored' like its someone elses problem to solve? We all want more content, sure, but when its not there you do other content elsewhere till more arrives here. I learned that one when I was 10.
Wait what? No! That's boring!
I'm sad at the game's lack of content I enjoy, so I may as well make everyone else around me miserable!
(That was sarcasm, for those who don't get sarcasm)
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