Justified when considering it would change their original pitch of the game?
Deliberate Ramming
- Thread starter shadragon
- Start date
Justified when considering it would change their original pitch of the game?
Ian Phillips
Volunteer Moderator
Why are you so worried by a theoretical proposal? Basically Sandro stated that (shadow)banning a player is a complete last resort if all other measures fail to achieve the desired result.
No-one yet knows exactly what those measures are, or how well they will work.
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Where does it state that there would be no consequences for in-game actions?
For you sir I am sure these changes are great.... for the PVP community, not so much. being banned for playing a video game? Guess if Frontier really want to kill their game, sure.
consequences are fine, banning is not, banning gives the impression you did something wrong or outside of the rules.
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
As Ian pointed out - Sandro has spoken of banning being a consequence of last resort - I'd expect that a player would have to be very stubborn not to let the rules of the game (and consequences thereto) adjust their play-style such that they didn't end up in the situation where Frontier had to consider banning them.
.... and I'd expect that shadow-banning would not stop a player playing the game - it would simply remove the privilege of playing with other players.
Where did I say that? - no, no I don't, I do believe doing so repeatedly should cause escalating consequences though, all the way from increased 'bad karma' to increased rebuys and eventually docking restrictions up to possible faction wide docking ban, I believe this reputation should be able to be earned back as well, but it should take a while. Continually killing clean players who are not part of another power, who are not working against your BGS goals or who not an in game enemy is frankly bordering on in-game anti social behaviour, if Frontier, (and only Frontier), sees logs and information that suggests someone is doing this purely out of spite or to be a PITA on an extremely large scale then yes, in that case, anything goes in my opinion.
But lets be honest here, we are not just talking about shooting clean commanders are we? - we are talking about anti-social behaviour, we are talking about exploiters and we are talking about consequences. I know you are an experienced gamer Harry, you are an excellent pilot, I, (as I'm sure you have), have played many, many MMO's, I am struggling to think of even one that has not enforced bans where necessary for anti-social behaviour, exploits, hacks, cheats and more, why should Elite Dangerous be any different?
So what you and others are saying is you would be quite happy if us pvpers are removed from the game either by a straight up ban or by loss of 300+ hour ship?
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Nope. I'd be a bit sad that those players had ignored the many warnings that they would undoubtedly have received in relation to increased consequences for their behaviour.
I never said don't ban for cheats and the like, but for Frontier or Sandro at least to compare Combat logging to Kill a clean CMDR just shows the intent... I want a good C&P system but not one that will remove PVP, organic PVP in its current form. as a player who murders anyone I see, I would fall into the trend of that frontier would seem to be looking for when trying to ban players, I know this because they already tried it on me. Shadow bans are also not justified, I payed for the game just as everyone else, I play by the rules, I don't cheat. So I will do what I like, if the devs don't like it then fix their damn game or get the root cause of the play style. in this case, lack of content.
I know everyone hates the term EVE being brought up but look at that game... do they ban for attacking players? no. EVE's C&P system works and is applicable to Elite, this whole Karma won't even work. I already explained how it could be gamed with ease.
Its just playing a game. You cannot blame players to get them rich quickly. Its your business to get progress slowly. SOmeone else may choose different path not because he is playing wrong, but because game allowing that and developer is saying its legit so people are JUST playing the game.
by ingame immersion - NPC are other members of galaxy, and have same intelligence level as You, and they coming from the same race. In fact they often playing better than players, so in no one point they are worse.
about chicken - by vegans - YES, and KFC is serial murderer.
human as superior species is treating chickens as a food. What if a race superior to human will treat us as a chicken?
If you dont mind to eat chicken then don't complain when Hogwart guest is treating you as a chicken.
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Harry, you can blame Frontier all you like, and believe me, they do have SOME responsibility in this. But c'mon, Harry, you, the player has some responsibility too, as I said, you really shouldn't be surprised when and if you reap what you have sewn. I absolutely maintain that anyone, and I mean ANYONE who combat logs, (in open in particular), is a coward and in the wrong game mode, no doubt about it, but guess what, the player sat at the alien ruins site in his/her murder-de-lance popping every clean explorer ship he/she sees for days 'just because they can' are, in my opinion, as much of a blight on the game as combat loggers are, and almost as much of a coward.
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That's where the shadow bans can come in. Some players will inevitably refuse to take the hint about the unacceptability of anti-social behaviour and instead attempt to exploit the karma system. There's not much else Frontier can do with that kind of player except escalate to out of game measures.
Minonian
Banned
Do we have a choice? Do we have a choice about fighting with npc's? Furthermore? That's why they existing. That's their role! They don't think they don't feel, they don't live! Intellect? That's varies. But a machine or a simple ghost in machine created by humans incapable of self reproduction, healing self sustenance? Are considered non living. computer viruses? They are somewhere between the border of living, and non living, just like real ones.
Homo superior huh? False We both capable of sentient thinking but our capabilities are different. But a both a down syndrome and a genius like Einsten count as a sentient human begin and thus threated as such.
To do otherwise is a crime.
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Armchair psychologist was what came to mind first before getting to the end.
Its not even a case of "toe the line", I do the same thing I have been for the last year, I just murder players and sometimes spice it up with a different ship or load out, the game's bad reputation you speak of comes from its lack of content to keep player engaged and the massive grind wall that is engineers, player retention was always a tough one for Frontier since the game was so difficult to get into, but the added "Content" only made it worse.
No, that's not how development works. I also do not kill players just out of LHS 3447, I in fact offered Frontier the opposite... I and some others in the Galactic Academy requested that starter systems be permit locked and said permit only given to a select few players myself included who could use this permit to help new players learn to play away from the "noob killers", while being able to teach a new player in Open as it should be. it was perfectly Lore safe and would of worked to prevent the situation we have now in the starter systems. We where ignored.
Quite the bait post... the game states you can "blaze your own trail" I blaze a trail of death by day and science by night, its not about a karma system for me I would love to see one, its when devs even float the idea of removing ships, engineered ship.... anyone who has played engineers knows that would be their end and why not? it can take upwards of 300 hours to create an engineered ship, that's longer than it takes to complete most games, its not even great game-play too. or Sandro's idea of shadow banning, the ideas floated by Devs here are some of the most crazy ideas I have ever seen from a developer.
The fact that an option to a Developer of a MMO is to ban a player that is playing within the rules set by them, well just read that out loud. see how it sounds.
I have some sympathy for many of your points but...
While I agree that there should be no banning of players playing with the rules, TOS etc. The developer can update these rules anytime they like if they decide it is the best interests of the game. Rule changes always always advantage some while disadvantaging others.
Any karma system needs a way for you to recover from a negative position. But if having a highly negative karma means you risk loosing you highly engineered PVP ship then so be it. You still have choices: Stay in high negative karma and live on the edge in your 300 hour, god rolled, PVP death machines, stay highly negative and fly cheaper ships or recover karma so you can fly your babies again without risking total loss. The golden rule of ED is don't fly what you can't afford to loose - not just financially but emotionally. It's people ignoring this rule that causes salt extraction when you and your compatriots destroy them. You need to live by the rule too! I think it would be really interesting to see just how negative people will go and how much they are prepared to put on the line. Lore wise, I don't think that life as a murder hobo member of the Pilot's Federation should be an easy one.
You have made a very good point about how these complex systems are liable to being gamed. Proposals need to thoroughly anlalysed, discussed with the community and tested before they make it into game. Even then it will never be perfect because these things never are. But we shouldn't be afraid of change just because we can't be sure what might go wrong. We adapt, stuff gets refined and we do the best with what we've got. I thought that was the kind of thing the SDC were supposed to be good at.
You simply not need to eat a chicken. You can eat vegetables or prana.
You do not need to fight with NPC, even if their attacking you.
But you like a chicken, Hogwart guest also, so you need to deal with it and move on. its just your role (you wrote it).
Yepp. The same with NPC. Want kill? Take punish. Dont want punishment? Then don't kill. Don't be a racist.
You played a card with adhitlerum, so you lost. We are not talking about it in fact. We are talking about consistency of in-game characters. That groups is both npc and human controlled ships.
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its anti-social behaviour to kill another player... now I have heard everything.
Ignore what now?
It warns you to stop pvping which is the same as stop playing. We are not content to go exploring or trading or other things you may enjoy, we enjoy pvp which will result in our removal from the game.
If you really don't want that then this system is not what you want, if you are being coy man up and say what you want.
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Minonian
Banned
Wrong!
Your body by biology makes you omnivore. In one form or another, you need what's animal eating gives to you If you don't you risk permanent health damage.
getting back to the previous post? In more game related reference? Git gud, otherwise you are just a moving target...
I have the right because i'm better? Superior to you in every term? That's racism!
If you trying to use this as a resoning? that's the naczi card / arugmentum ad hitlerum. unless its founded. And in the case of your argument? It's not!
The class difference are clearly present! they are falling under a different classification.
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Wrong!
Your body by biology makes you omnivore. In one form or another, you need what's animal eating gives to you If you don't you risk permanent health damage.
i am eating everything what i like, i am not vegan bigot, but in fact, you're wrong here
You may eat just vegetables with proper diet and you health will be fine.
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