Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
Sandro's proposal would seem to leave PvP against CMDRs with bounties on their heads untouched - how is that stopping all PvP?
Deliberate Ramming
- Thread starter shadragon
- Start date
Sandro's proposal would seem to leave PvP against CMDRs with bounties on their heads untouched - how is that stopping all PvP?
Minonian
Banned
i am eating everything what i like, i am not vegan bigot, but in fact, you're wrong hereYou may eat just vegetables with proper diet and you health will be fine.
No, it's not.
It can't reach 100% effectiveness.
No, it's not.
OK. You not.
Others yes.
yeah.
and killing NPC's what have names and virtual families, dealing a drugs, trading a slaves is very social
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Minonian
Banned
There are no such thing as "others". Human biology by base principles are the same. The difference between the so called races are not big enough to this.
And if your body can't work at his fullest? than your health suffers.
But i must admit some thing it is possible to eat only vegetables, but for that you need a very special diet, and even than? You must have access to some animal related food stuff like eggs or milk. But to do this? You must know what you do, like the Indians (no not the west ones) they have the experience, they kichen, and way of food making capable to get as close to this for humans as possible. But yet???
Edit; Besides? we are heavily off topic.
Prana eating? (laugher) Can you photosynthesize?
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What I have noticed in this thread and many others is that many of the Elite PVP enthusiasts seem to talk a good game and say the right things, up to a point, they claim to want a C&P system in game that has some logic about it. A proper karma/C&P system in this game has been discussed many, many times over a very long period now, just about every possible and conceivable idea relating to such a system has been discussed and pooh-poohed by some of those PVP'ers who claim one is needed. To be honest guys it is probably time to put up or shut up, you either get on board with one of the ideas proposed or you stop saying you want an improved C&P system. There is never going to be a perfect C&P system, any C&P system - almost by definition - is going to impact your chosen play style in one way or another.
I wrote you need a proper diet.
The same with the eating meat. If you will eat only hamburgers or other fastfood crap then you will get fat. Then you will also not reach 100% effectiveness.
Different things need different diet. Vegetable diet is not so popular at meet that's why you calling it 'special'.
(i never expected i will defend vegetable diet in my life...lets stop that, i am starting feeling strange)
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Javert
Volunteer Moderator
ROFL that is brilliant. I didn't know SDC had such a sense of humour. So your solution to the problem is to put the noob system under the control of SDC and prevent any other players apart from SDC and Newbies to get in there. Comedy gold.
And I suppose you would be teaching these new players in the same way that you said you would protect Salomé? Please carry on that's the best laugh I've had all weekend so far
Joking aside, this is actually an important dev feedback thread, and this comment illustrates how difficult it is for devs to filter out the good ideas from all the posturing on all sides.
Your idea is actually a really good one and worth highlighting - lock off starter systems or a starter bubble and issue police permits to only trusted mentors to get in there. Actually it's rather a good idea. Adding the proposal to it that SDC would be the ones doing the policing will risk the idea being ignored / lost. No disrespect, but your groups's MO is not likely to put you at the front of the queue to be trusted with that role.
BUT - it's a good idea in general.
Can I also suggest that some of you move the conversation more to the details and intricacies of how a karma system should work? It's very clear that some of the players here are very strongly against shadow banning being used, even as an ultimate punishment after many other measures, for playing as a murderer and simply shooting everyone you happen to encounter. I'm sure the message has got across loud and clear. It's also very clear there is strong opinion against complete loss of engineered ships as a consequence.
Now it's Frontier's game, so they can choose what to do, and if they choose to change the rules, that's up to them, in the same way that it's up to players to decide whether they want to continue playing this game or move to a different one. However the objections are pretty clear and understood, as are the arguments in favor.
Maybe it would be better to discuss for example:
- What types of actions would reduce Karma by what particular amounts.
- What type of actions would increase Karma.
- What types of measures should result from that and how quickly should they kick in.
Also - and this is my opinion - ideally a Karma system should be just one tool in a package of changes aimed at these kind of issues which would include:
1) Karma system
2) A system for players who want to hunt down low karma persistent offenders to do that by specifically targeting those types of criminals and giving away their location to bounty hunters.
3) A system of warnings for general players to warn then when highly dangerous player criminals are active in the vicinity.
4) A system where players can set a flag in their options to say "I prefer not to be instanced with gankers". (Note prefer not to rather than block - there would still be a risk but smaller)
5) Giving players who are in non combat ships and builds a way to reduce or cap their losses when they are having to run blockades of PVP players.
I would think that all of these items should be considered in order to provide a balanced solution.
well we have heard alot about how bad it will be from the puppy kicking community. But as the spitballing inclined that anarchies would still be lawless I doubt it will be that bad for the pvp community as dueling/fighting/murder can still be done implication free in anarchies. legit Piracy outside of that will be likely picking up the equivalent of parking tickets (a small overhead, even the occasional accidental death). Bounty hunting pvp might actually improve with the overhaul if those big juicy bad men cant suicidewinder away the bounty.
Hell even players that for some weird reason set themselves a target of say killing 10000 others wont be that affected... just the ones too lazy to fly to anarchies to do it. Youre straw man is a bit threadbare, you might want to look into that.
In many contexts it is.
Minonian
Banned
Ahhh... I see the trap. Try something else... It's won't work.
At first? Not only your way is the one and only true way. (PVP.)
Second? It's not about to be omnivore /predator / herbivorous.
Third, A well done "AI" can be just as much challenge than a human player. heck! Even more. (reaction time!)
Conclusion? Fail!
Sorry! But the logics of this are only works in one direction. It's a one way road.
I see the trap. Try something else... It's won't work.At first? Not only your way is the one and only true way. (PVP.)
Second? It's not about to be omnivore /predator / herbivorous.
Third, A well done "AI" can be just as much challenge than a human player. heck! Even more. (reaction time!)
Conclusion?
Fail!Sorry!
But the logics of this are only works in one direction. It's a one way road.
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I think it's even in a very basic way a description of being anti-social.
Being social = to interact with society (aka other people) in a positive manner
Being anti-social = to interact with society in a negative manner
Being sociopatic = to be unable to understand the rules of social interaction.
In this, very simplified way, player-killers ARE sociopaths, because not only they interact with society in a negative manner, but they are unable to understand why it is wrong and what's wrong with it.
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ROFL that is brilliant. I didn't know SDC had such a sense of humour. So your solution to the problem is to put the noob system under the control of SDC and prevent any other players apart from SDC and Newbies to get in there. Comedy gold.
And I suppose you would be teaching these new players in the same way that you said you would protect Salomé? Please carry on that's the best laugh I've had all weekend so far
Joking aside, this is actually an important dev feedback thread, and this comment illustrates how difficult it is for devs to filter out the good ideas from all the posturing on all sides.
Your idea is actually a really good one and worth highlighting - lock off starter systems or a starter bubble and issue police permits to only trusted mentors to get in there. Actually it's rather a good idea. Adding the proposal to it that SDC would be the ones doing the policing will risk the idea being ignored / lost. No disrespect, but your groups's MO is not likely to put you at the front of the queue to be trusted with that role.
BUT - it's a good idea in general.
Can I also suggest that some of you move the conversation more to the details and intricacies of how a karma system should work? It's very clear that some of the players here are very strongly against shadow banning being used, even as an ultimate punishment after many other measures, for playing as a murderer and simply shooting everyone you happen to encounter. I'm sure the message has got across loud and clear. It's also very clear there is strong opinion against complete loss of engineered ships as a consequence.
Now it's Frontier's game, so they can choose what to do, and if they choose to change the rules, that's up to them, in the same way that it's up to players to decide whether they want to continue playing this game or move to a different one. However the objections are pretty clear and understood, as are the arguments in favor.
Maybe it would be better to discuss for example:
- What types of actions would reduce Karma by what particular amounts.
- What type of actions would increase Karma.
- What types of measures should result from that and how quickly should they kick in.
Also - and this is my opinion - ideally a Karma system should be just one tool in a package of changes aimed at these kind of issues which would include:
1) Karma system
2) A system for players who want to hunt down low karma persistent offenders to do that by specifically targeting those types of criminals and giving away their location to bounty hunters.
3) A system of warnings for general players to warn then when highly dangerous player criminals are active in the vicinity.
4) A system where players can set a flag in their options to say "I prefer not to be instanced with gankers". (Note prefer not to rather than block - there would still be a risk but smaller)
5) Giving players who are in non combat ships and builds a way to reduce or cap their losses when they are having to run blockades of PVP players.
I would think that all of these items should be considered in order to provide a balanced solution.
That idea had nothing to do with the rest of SDC at all, that was simply a way to prevent the attacks some players make on starter systems, I personally and SDC do not attack starter systems, I helped setup GCI when the idea was ignored and since then we have hundreds of new PVP players. I as well as many other teach PVP and general game-play.
I find it funny that as a mod you take such comments as a joke... but then given the kind of mods here I should of assumed the kind of behavior.
Javert
Volunteer Moderator
I said "Joking aside" because I was expecting the response to be that it wasn't an SDC initiative. However my point still stands - there are lots of new players also joining who maybe don't want to learn PVP because that's not the aspect of the game they are interested in. I also want on to say your idea was actually a good one and worth highlighting. Are you also going to spend your time teaching them how to run missions, do exploration, etc?
But to address your point, maybe there could be a permit locked system for PVP training on new players nearby to the starter systems. As I said, this idea in my view has some merit.
In my entire time on elite i've come across maybe 20-30 cmdrs with a bounty on their head. Most of those abuse combat logging or they FSD out the normal way as soon as I appear or they are in wings of 4 when I play solo.
20-30 is not alot considering I've probably killed some where in the region of 2000ish.
Elite is a very large game, very very large in game map terms even when we are talking the bubble.
I've been spreading the news of this thread in game and on discord some people go, NAH that will never come in its just FDev talking as per usual, others take it more seriously.
However.. each of them when confronted with the fact that if this was implimented, in the way that you would loose your ship or be banned. Each of them, PVPers of various degrees, some of them hardly kill any lower tier players, some of them pure Player Killers like my self. Each of them said they would quit.
We are all for a better CNP system.
I even support really harsh penalties.
But.
Removal of ships, banning of players as if they were cheating or breaking game rules.
Goes way too far.
If you support the idea of Ship removal or shadow banning, you are saying you want us to leave. It's not a threat or anything its just that is what will happen. If FDev want to turn this into a more pure PVE experience with very limited PVP then they have the right to do that this is their game but of course, obviously anyone who enjoys the pvp are going to leave its kinda that simple.
The karma system can be changed as sandro said its up for speculation.
I don't mind repercussions so long as its manageable, I view CNP as a thing to deter ganking for people not committed not as a way to outright remove it.
I will never stop ganking as long as I play.
I came to elite just to do this, no other reason. I fly for a job i have great interest in games about piloting however if it is reduced to a casual PVE experience I am afraid Elite does not stand up enough to be able to keep my attention.
To put it short.
PVPers will not stop PVPing no matter what system is implemented, they will only quit if it becomes apparent you can't actually do it to that extent any more.
PVPers support a change in the CNP to make the risk much greater as well there is not really any risk right now. Ideas have been suggested, Fdev should work with ALL players and not just people who's only wish is to remove a portion of the game they never participate in.
the highlighted issue at least should be clear: none. karma should build up (very) slowly just for playing (edit: or in rl time, why not). any action causing positive karma is prone to exploit and abuse rendering the whole karma system ineffective.
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I am part of the Galactic Academy, set up by Fdev to help new players get into the game... the Permit system with select players given access was to help them get into the game in all of its aspects. not just PVP, in fact I wouldn't teach PVP to a new player untill they understood some more basic combat first.
I agree, PvP combat is an end-game activity
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
For some, maybe. It's also a "not interested" activity for others.
well said. constructive.
this sounds like alot of fun. If bounty hunters can pay a small amount to a local shady type when docked at a station in exchange for a location and a name of the nearest player with a bounty we can get some gameplay going. The tip offs can have varying degrees of accuracy and players with the bounties would not have to stay in one spot to make it easy either. That'll give us a cat & mouse feel for those that want to be space-sim criminals... got a bounty on youre head? found a good spot for youre crime? how long do you dare mine it before you need to make a break for it. On the other side you got the bounty hunters who have to weigh up how many tip offs and systems they need to chase that payday on 'mr L. J. Silver' last seen in system X before its not worth it. Bounty hunting NPC's in res sites is ok but chasing an actual player via breadcrumbs is a neat challenge.
A 'now hear this: violent criminal last seen in fleeing across system X. Do not attempt to approach him as he is considered armed and deadly' bulletin would be such a cool bit of flavour for those going about their business. More life and dynamism. Like it.
A variation on the pvp flag. This is relatively easy to implement and its the most common solution games come up this very issue. But I'd personally prefer to avoid that as i think would all who want a truly alive open experience. It is slightly better than people isolating themselves in solo.
This is what we'll get if we fail to be reasonable and reach a balanced and inclusive outcome.
This is fair. Blockades, wars and CG's should involve intergalactic shooty bangs. The humble traders have to get in and out and alot of that is down to their personal skill. But if the balance is off and that one time they get caught wipes out the days profit it wont be a profitable enterprise. Explorers are in a pickle as their best builds are so not good for combat and one interdiction at the very end could wipe out a weeks worth of work.
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