Deliberate Ramming

[Reav]

I am not talking about this thread, I am talking about the history of SDC. InAbsentia has himself posted on this forum stating that anyone in SDC caught in anything other than Open will be kicked from the group. Other members of SDC frequently call Open their Private Group and berate other players for "hiding in Solo/PG." If you haven't seen this, you haven't been around very long.
That is why a comment like J's is both surprising and disappointing to me.

SDC isent the sum total of the Player Killer community and any behaviour by a few members does not represent the total of the community, as is the same with the poor people talking about peoples lives being bad or them having mental issues and such or wishing IRL death/cancer to any PKer. They are also a minority whom should be shunned for the weirdos they are.
Play which mode you want and have fun.

 

[Truesilver]

Can we please stop talking about the theoretical possibility of Harry losing his god-roll Cutter and deal with the acute reality that Harry's avatar has lost its wry grimace?

Harry, I'm sorry, but I am right now being griefed by this new big cheesy grin thing. I understand that it may be justifiably celebratory after the salami-slicing, but honestly, your avatar's original wry, hacked-off, grim, grimace, as featured in at least one online third party news sources, was just perfect. To me it encapsulated everything you have tried to achieve in your ED persona.

Please, please, revert.

Thank you.

 

[CMDR Heisenberg B. Damned]

What are you talking about I took a PVP fit FDL to Colonia just fine, I explore in a prismatic anaconda just fine, I sometimes PVP in a bi-weave ASP just fine... see the pattern here? I was prepared. any explorer who gets killed like that is not prepared, if they didn't min-max their way with jump range they would make it back just fine.

Colonia isn't far off the centre of the Galaxy, claiming you got there in an FDL is pointless, it's easy, very very easy to do (got there in a Cutter with 720 cargo myself). Try getting to some of the hard to reach places, and, no 22,000 Ly away but near the Galactic centre isn't hard to get to.

The main point though is what if you and those who think PvP is A OK no matter how suitable the opponents build is, what if you're killing the game? Maybe that's what you want, I don't know, but it matches your play style. Massive kudos for actually killing a game completely. Just a thought.

 

[Arguendo]

SDC isent the sum total of the Player Killer community and any behaviour by a few members does not represent the total of the community...

And I am not saying that SDC = PvP-community. I am saying that members of SDC themselves, notably InAbsentia which is one of the founders of the group, has publicly stated that members of SDC are only to fly in Open or be excluded from the group. Also, several members of SDC (again, not talking about the PvP-community in general) have berated other players for "hiding in PG/Solo."
There is a disconnect between what members of SDC say is their "code of conduct", and what they actually do with it. That is disappointing, even from a notorious group like SDC.

 

[Dbrn47]

Do you really believe players welcome being killed in far weaker ships?

I wouldn't be surprised if he did. It's working off of the premise that PvPers find that to be a rite of passage, something they all deal with while progressing. If people didn't welcome it, they wouldn't play on the PvP Server (Open mode in this case). It is essentially how PvPers view Open, as the PvP Server. Complaining about it in any other game and the responses you would get are the same, "Don't play on the PvP server.", "Stick to Hi-Sec.", "Don't wander into PvP Zones.", "Play with friends that are willing to protect you."

Due to that whole thought process, that's precisely the reason I just follow the advice and play in modes where unwanted PvP is not possible. It's precisely the reason I don't play games that have this sort of no-holds barred PvP (when it's not what I'm looking for in that particular game). It is just easier to combat it in this manner. Sure, it just avoids the 'problem', but I can't assume that any developer is going to change it so that I can avoid all player confrontation, where that confrontation is welcome. I think it'd be great to slow down the senseless salt farming, but as we can see, getting people to agree on how it should be done is just a pain in the neck. I don't think you're ever going to convince a murder hobo that cramping his style is going to be a good thing.

I think that all Frontier can do is make their best efforts to make it as fair as possible and then just stick to their guns. You can't please everyone and I think it's likely that for everyone that leaves over C&P another player will join. It's a big decision that's going to affect Open in a big way, it's going to create waves regardless of its implementation.

 

[VR StarLightPL]

Hello CMDR FDEV Beige Cowboy!

As I have feared, this is turning into some "make players great again" system. As in "crime" and "punishment", "consequences" blah blah blah. While the trend measuring system in itself is neither bad, nor good in its essence, all I see discussed is punishment, ramifications, and otherwise restraining the so-called "griefers" AND NOT REWARDING VALID GAMEPLAY.

Why not make karma a career path?

Exactly. Why isn't a criminal career a viable way to "blaze your trail"? There should be PERKS for BOTH sides of the equation. Let's take a hypothetical Carebear and a Ganker and drop them into instance. What happens? Ganker kills Carebear, of course. But what happens then? Well... It may be that this particular Carebear in his carebearing ways made lots of friends (high positive karma), among them some insurance companies who give him discounts on rebuys (just an example, don't get overattached to it). So, the gank sting would be greatly reduced. Also, the loss would be manageable, because with so many friends there are discounts and good missions everywhere, faction rep with lawful factions is gained faster because Carebear is trustworthy, model citizen... Maybe cargo insurance? Who knows. Or maybe a panic button for next time which will send yuuuge reinforcements of system security to the crime scene almost as soon as first shots are fired? Imagine someone like Dalai Lama, Pope or similar attacked, or a beloved pop-star... Even bystanders would help (and be rewarded perhaps). And the downsides? Well... if a Carebear wanders out to dangerous systems (anarchy, low sec) he could even be "highlighted" as a high value target for piracy or murder (think bounties on someone's head, only issued by a rivalling faction than he is allied with perhaps) and suffer more interdictions that way...

Now that we have covered the Carebear side, lets turn to the dark side of the force - the Ganker. Why did he do it? Why did he kill the poor unarmed Carebear in paper thin ship? Well, the answer is simple. Because he COULD. Crime lords do not ask for "pvp consent" (bahahahaha, still can't say that with straight face), sorry. And this kill, being a 100th one, has granted him a criminal rank of master. In which he gained access to the black market to BUY things from (another perk example you shouldn't be overly attached to). Yes, he will be hunted. Yes he will need to choose systems carefully, and avoid hi-sec because he could even lose his ship permanently in there. But anarchy and low sec - oh boy, they are totally different matter. For example in anarchy he can call in some henchmen (the scum of the galaxy, just like him). Low sec with bribery he can make low paid sysdef force to turn a blind eye. Perhaps he even does get info about some targets [cmdrs, npcs] doing lucrative (as in to pirate) cargo runs. As in - Yuri Nakamura will be transporting valuable data from 46 Eridani to Tionisla system, intercept before he reaches Tionisla, because we know somebody who would pay millions for that data (or for it to be lost, whatever). From criminal or shady factions which he of course gains rep faster with (as opposed to lawful).

The point I am getting at is - currently we don't get rewarded for playing "in character".

Capo di tutti capi doesn't ask for "pvp consent". He just shoots people in the face, with constant threat of the law forces catching up, but he lives an exciting (albeit often short) life. A lawful entrepreneur which has stellar reputation also lives a rich life with people helping him along the way but can be a victim of the aforementioned mafioso or his goons. The circle of life, almost ;-)

Now that is what a proper karma system could be used for. Tracking the roleplay percentage and awarding perks and hindrances according to behaviour, fairly on both sides of the equation. Of course the perks and hindrances have to be different for both career choices (as in the game should not force you to either path), but that's implementation details which I leave to Sandro Sammarco to work out.

 

[Reav]

And I am not saying that SDC = PvP-community. I am saying that members of SDC themselves, notably InAbsentia which is one of the founders of the group, has publicly stated that members of SDC are only to fly in Open or be excluded from the group. Also, several members of SDC (again, not talking about the PvP-community in general) have berated other players for "hiding in PG/Solo."
There is a disconnect between what members of SDC say is their "code of conduct", and what they actually do with it. That is disappointing, even from a notorious group like SDC.

Well harry just said he uses private group?
If he gets kicked who cares? I use solo when i do my pax missions in high populated places. So what?
I am 90% in open but at times no. The game allows it who cares about anyone's perceived moral code?

 

[PeLucheuh]

Colonia isn't far off the centre of the Galaxy, claiming you got there in an FDL is pointless, it's easy, very very easy to do (got there in a Cutter with 720 cargo myself). Try getting to some of the hard to reach places, and, no 22,000 Ly away but near the Galactic centre isn't hard to get to.

The main point though is what if you and those who think PvP is A OK no matter how suitable the opponents build is, what if you're killing the game? Maybe that's what you want, I don't know, but it matches your play style. Massive kudos for actually killing a game completely. Just a thought.

People have to assume concequences of their mistakes. This is a cutthroat galaxy.

If a player choose to use a weak loadout it is its responsability. What is killing the game is players who refuse to acknowledge all the game mechanics and blame others for their mistakes.
You can choose how you play the game but not how others play within global game core rules that applies to everyone equally.

If you get blown up back from your exploration trip, it is mainly your fault because there are already all the tools in-game to avoid this situation.

 

[Dbrn47]

People have to assume concequences of their mistakes. This is a cutthroat galaxy.

If a player choose to use a weak loadout it is its responsability. What is killing the game is players who refuse to acknowledge all the game mechanics and blame others for their mistakes.
You can choose how you play the game but not how others play within global game core rules that applies to everyone equally.

If you get blown up back from your exploration trip, it is mainly your fault because there are already all the tools in-game to avoid this situation.

Yea, I do agree that if one is going to play in Open, they should probably take the extra measures to survive the trip, even if it means you lose jump range. If it were me, losing 10 LY is totally worth being able to make it back to that station to collect on weeks/months of exploration. This is regardless of any C&P, even if it were implemented, you should still be prepared. We can talk about what we think about the person finding fun in ruining a trip that long all day, which I do think poorly of that person, but it doesn't matter because you can be shot, so you will be. Of course, if you need to keep that dank 60 LY, you don't have to be in Open for the return.

- - - Updated - - -

Can we please stop talking about the theoretical possibility of Harry losing his god-roll Cutter and deal with the acute reality that Harry's avatar has lost its wry grimace?

Harry, I'm sorry, but I am right now being griefed by this new big cheesy grin thing. I understand that it may be justifiably celebratory after the salami-slicing, but honestly, your avatar's original wry, hacked-off, grim, grimace, as featured in at least one online third party news sources, was just perfect. To me it encapsulated everything you have tried to achieve in your ED persona.

Please, please, revert.

Thank you.

The entire idea of purposely turning your avatar into a being that fell from a tree, was hit by a bus, ran over by a train and then given the Cirque du Soleil make-up treatment triggers me as it is. The smile just makes me swallow my own eyeballs after they roll into my throat.

 

[CMDR Heisenberg B. Damned]

I don't think you're ever going to convince a murder hobo that cramping his style is going to be a good thing.

I think that all Frontier can do is make their best efforts to make it as fair as possible and then just stick to their guns. You can't please everyone and I think it's likely that for everyone that leaves over C&P another player will join. It's a big decision that's going to affect Open in a big way, it's going to create waves regardless of its implementation.

Elegantly put and I agree completely, really I'm trying to point out their style is the toxicity that may be killing Elite and that that might not be against the ego boost that some (minority - but vocal) actually want. We have a surfeit of games, imagine the kudos in closing down an actual, in real life, a game. Some people will revel in this even if it means they don't get to play the game again.

 

[besieger]

Can we please stop talking about the theoretical possibility of Harry losing his god-roll Cutter and deal with the acute reality that Harry's avatar has lost its wry grimace?

Harry, I'm sorry, but I am right now being griefed by this new big cheesy grin thing. I understand that it may be justifiably celebratory after the salami-slicing, but honestly, your avatar's original wry, hacked-off, grim, grimace, as featured in at least one online third party news sources, was just perfect. To me it encapsulated everything you have tried to achieve in your ED persona.

Please, please, revert.

Thank you.

as you requested sir.

 

[Javert]

The amount of combat logging would sky rocket over night if there was a chance of losing your Engineered 300 hours ship... FACT. The devs don't understand the level of effort that goes into these ships to then have them removed because of our play style is one that many players will simply "log out of", 15 or 30 sec.. easy...

We all want a better C&P System but we don't want a system that just imposes restrictions on our play-style, Removing docking and the like is a great idea loss of a ship is not, unless you don't have the rebuy then its your own fault.

And this is a great start. So we know what you absolutely don't want. Tell us the list of things that are acceptable (and as I said before in the end it's up to FD, but your feedback is equal to everyone else's).

On the exploration thing - I do find it a bit odd that you think you should not under any circumstances lose an egineered ship that took you 30 hours or 300 hours or whatever to build, but you are fine to kill an explorere to spent 300 hours out on a trip and carrying those number of hours of explo data.

Are there any explorers here who would like to comment on whether they think it's fair that FD takes away their entire 300 hours of exploration data when they are killed returning back to cash it in?

(Now for me personally, and I have to say I even suspect for some of the PVP players , I would never in a million years return back to the bubble in open mode if I was carrying hundreds of hours of exploration data).

And maybe therein lies a big balance issue - why should explorers lose days and weeks of playtime if they die coming back ot the bubble, whereas PVP players lose nothing apart from a rebuy? - this may actually be an argument against ironman exploration data functionality rather than in favour of loss of engineered ships - however, it also, as someone else pointed out earlier, points to a lack of empathy towards other play styles.

 

[besieger]

And this is a great start. So we know what you absolutely don't want. Tell us the list of things that are acceptable (and as I said before in the end it's up to FD, but your feedback is equal to everyone else's).

On the exploration thing - I do find it a bit odd that you think you should not under any circumstances lose an egineered ship that took you 30 hours or 300 hours or whatever to build, but you are fine to kill an explorere to spent 300 hours out on a trip and carrying those number of hours of explo data.

Are there any explorers here who would like to comment on whether they think it's fair that FD takes away their entire 300 hours of exploration data when they are killed returning back to cash it in?

(Now for me personally, and I have to say I even suspect for some of the PVP players , I would never in a million years return back to the bubble in open mode if I was carrying hundreds of hours of exploration data).

And maybe therein lies a big balance issue - why should explorers lose days and weeks of playtime if they die coming back ot the bubble, whereas PVP players lose nothing apart from a rebuy? - this may actually be an argument against ironman exploration data functionality rather than in favour of loss of engineered ships - however, it also, as someone else pointed out earlier, points to a lack of empathy towards other play styles.

I myself as an explorer have lost vast amounts of data due to being ganked on my way back, I learnt my lesson and armed up, you don't need to bring weapons but put a shield and some boosters on... enough for a high wake and your golden. the proposal put to PVPers was one of no chance to buy your ship... that different there is nothing we can do.

 

[Robert Maynard]

I myself as an explorer have lost vast amounts of data due to being ganked on my way back, I learnt my lesson and armed up, you don't need to bring weapons but put a shield and some boosters on... enough for a high wake and your golden. the proposal put to PVPers was one of no chance to buy your ship... that different there is nothing we can do.

PvP incluces "versus" - i.e. some challenge. If there is no challenge, i.e. negative karma, then is it still PvP or is it PoP (i.e. player-overpowers-player)?

 

[Javert]

I myself as an explorer have lost vast amounts of data due to being ganked on my way back, I learnt my lesson and armed up, you don't need to bring weapons but put a shield and some boosters on... enough for a high wake and your golden. the proposal put to PVPers was one of no chance to buy your ship... that different there is nothing we can do.

Go back to rootsrat post earlier - someone can panic and make some mistakes, lose their ship, lose their entire x hundred hours of play. Whereas still, PVP players only lose the rebuy.

So you would say it was wrong if FD said - we are introducing explo data save points (in some lore friendly way) every 10 hours of play for example?

But anyway, this gets off topic it's supposed to be about feedback for C&P system.

 

[besieger]

Go back to rootsrat post earlier - someone can panic and make some mistakes, lose their ship, lose their entire x hundred hours of play. Whereas still, PVP players only lose the rebuy.

So you would say it was wrong if FD said - we are introducing explo data save points (in some lore friendly way) every 10 hours of play for example?

But anyway, this gets off topic it's supposed to be about feedback for C&P system.

No, I would for sure be for players keeping their data upon death, we keep our materials... nothing to say you wouldn't back up your exploration data.

 

[Dbrn47]

Then it would turn into "Exploration is risk-less cash and pay should be toned down."

 

[Robert Maynard]

No, I would for sure be for players keeping their data upon death, we keep our materials... nothing to say you wouldn't back up your exploration data.

All players keep materials / data - just as all players lose the contents of their ships on destruction, i.e. cargo, booty, exploration data, refined commodities, combat bonds, bounty vouchers....

.... and keeping exploration data would mean that players would only need to travel out, never back....

 

[Dbrn47]

All players keep materials / data - just as all players lose the contents of their ships on destruction, i.e. cargo, booty, exploration data, refined commodities, combat bonds, bounty vouchers....

.... and keeping exploration data would mean that players would only need to travel out, never back....

Enter self-destruct to teleport 65k ly with 2B worth of Exploration data. Yea, that won't rustle any jimmies.

 

[Maxmilian Czhilli]

No not at all, we want risk, that's why I said my 70mil FDL should cost 70mil to replace should I die being a criminal.

So your fine with that. Interesting. Not really squirming enough for my tastes though so I reckon we need to up the ante. I can see how the leap to total ship loss is a bit of a big next step. I'm not interested in driving player killers from the game, or horror of horror's, turning them in to all they hate and becoming combat loggers.

So how's this for an idea. For really bad players they get their ships back, but only get access to dodgy knockoff hand-wavium ship remaking machines. These can cause damage to engineered modules that risk stats being degraded and special effects being lost. Not necessarily all modules or too harsh a downgrade to begin with and randomised so you can't be sure what will be affected. But the more horrific the karma level the worse the damage becomes. Hurting yet? Because it has to hurt.