Deliberate Ramming

[Gunnet]

The posters who are terribly worried about losing their ships are misunderstanding the point of a deterrent. You're not supposed to be willing to endure the high-tier punishments, you're supposed to feel compelled to modify your behaviour in order to avoid being subject to them.

Ideally, nobody would ever lose a ship to the karma system. But anybody who did would have chosen that outcome when they kept up their bad behaviour despite the system's increasing warnings.

 

[besieger]

So your fine with that. Interesting. Not really squirming enough for my tastes though so I reckon we need to up the ante. I can see how the leap to total ship loss is a bit of a big next step. I'm not interested in driving player killers from the game, or horror of horror's, turning them in to all they hate and becoming combat loggers.

So how's this for an idea. For really bad players they get their ships back, but only get access to dodgy knockoff hand-wavium ship remaking machines. These can cause damage to engineered modules that risk stats being degraded and special effects being lost. Not necessarily all modules or too harsh a downgrade to begin with and randomised so you can't be sure what will be affected. But the more horrific the karma level the worse the damage becomes. Hurting yet? Because it has to hurt.

That's the same a losing the ship really, some of us have put over 1000 rolls in their drives alone... CIF is a pain to get.

The posters who are terribly worried about losing their ships are misunderstanding the point of a deterrent. You're not supposed to be willing to endure the high-tier punishments, you're supposed to feel compelled to modify your behaviour in order to avoid being subject to them.

Ideally, nobody would ever lose a ship to the karma system. But anybody who did would have chosen that outcome when they kept up their bad behaviour despite the system's increasing warnings.

So you feel players should change their style of play to suit you? because some players can't "git gud" and equip their ship?

 

[imski]

I think we've got to the crux of this as regards to explorers. If I can make a one way trip to Beagle point, self destruct and keep all my exploration data and first discovered tags, with no downside (so essentially risk free money, faction influence and rank progression) PvPers can't lose their engineered ships if they're being antisocial.

Right? Is that the trade off? Because as it is now, that's not how it works.

 

[V'larr]

So you feel players should change their style of play to suit you? because some players can't "git gud" and equip their ship?

Isn't that exactly what you try to do when you want other players to get in Open and get ganked play PvP pew pew?

 

[imski]

Isn't that exactly what you try to do when you want other players to get in Open and get ganked play PvP pew pew?

I believe the term is cognitive dissonance.

 

[besieger]

Isn't that exactly what you try to do when you want other players to get in Open and get ganked play PvP pew pew?

I don't force anything on anyone, you are more than welcome to high wake out.

I believe the term is cognitive dissonance.

here we go with the insults... what a baby.

 

[imski]

That's the same a losing the ship really, some of us have put over 1000 rolls in their drives alone... CIF is a pain to get.



So you feel players should change their style of play to suit you? because some players can't "git gud" and equip their ship?

If you want players to play in open with you and so change their play style, you'll have to consider meeting them half way and changing yours too.

If you don't want to change, don't ask others too.

 

[V'larr]

I don't force anything on anyone, you are more than welcome to high wake out.

Tell that to Salome.

 

[imski]

I don't force anything on anyone, you are more than welcome to high wake out.



here we go with the insults... what a baby.

So you reply with an insult of your own?

Also exactly how does one high wake if in an SRV on a planet surface anyway?

 

[PeLucheuh]

Isn't that exactly what you try to do when you want other players to get in Open and get ganked play PvP pew pew?

No because being able to shoot others is a game core fonctionnality of the multiplier mode.

It is not PvP focus players who force people in a playstyle : It is the game itself.

You can be a smart explorer who use a good loadout losing some jump range but safe from the rebuy screen or a bad explorer who assume his playstyle will apply to others and get destroy in 2 seconds.

 

[Reav]

If you want players to play in open with you and so change their play style, you'll have to consider meeting them half way and changing yours too.

If you don't want to change, don't ask others too.

There's loads of people in open.
I see 100s of cmdrs every time I log on.

 

[imski]

If we're discussing a karma system for C&P it's because FD want more players in open.

If FD were happy with the status quo, this wouldn't be a subject of discussion.

 

[Dbrn47]

I don't force anything on anyone, you are more than welcome to high wake out.

That's a pretty poor argument now, especially considering you can just chase. It turns into a 'thrill of the hunt' scenario instead. Who's to say you don't just bother them more since they ran instead of just taking their 'noogies'. There are so many analogies that can apply to that kind of argument. You need something stronger than that.

 

[Reav]

If we're discussing a karma system for C&P it's because FD want more players in open.

If FD were happy with the status quo, this wouldn't be a subject of discussion.

Nah it is not that people can play what they want.
It's due to the unprecedented amount of whinge from bad players who want a god mode or removal of pvp so as to prevent them selves getting mad at a pixelated ship loss.
This is the same with every single mmo where you have open world PVP , even ones without consequences you will have some baby who get's offended at getting killed in an online game.
They refuse to get better them selves to prevent it in the future and instead complain to kingdom come.
Even in elite where you already have modes that have no PVP in them.

Usual story this is.
It's just sad Fdev are even taking a tiny bit of notice to any of the complainers to such a degree.

 

[rootsrat]

No because being able to shoot others is a game core fonctionnality of the multiplier mode.

It is not PvP focus players who force people in a playstyle : It is the game itself.

You can be a smart explorer who use a good loadout losing some jump range but safe from the rebuy screen or a bad explorer who assume his playstyle will apply to others and get destroy in 2 seconds.

Assuming the Karma system is introduced and a loss of ship is one of the most harsh punishments for having bad Karma, plus there is ability to regain good Karma - you can just as well be a smart bad boy and don't let your Karma drop down to those drastic levels, so that you will never lose your ship. <shrug>

 

[Dbrn47]

No because being able to shoot others is a game core fonctionnality of the multiplier mode.

It is not PvP focus players who force people in a playstyle : It is the game itself.

You can be a smart explorer who use a good loadout losing some jump range but safe from the rebuy screen or a bad explorer who assume his playstyle will apply to others and get destroy in 2 seconds.

See, I like this a bit better. The game does allow it, however, the game itself doesn't force you to PvP. In fact, it isn't even at all incentivized. The players can either do it willingly or be forced into it by other players. Though, it does give you the tools required survive, at least survive a 1 man interdiction, for the most part. Conversely, there are now more tools in the game than ever that allow players to force the engagement. FSD reboots, drive killers, shield killers, limpets that go through shields. If anything, I feel as if this entire conversation is sending mixed messages.

Perhaps, if there were more incentive to PvP in the first place, C&P would be more acceptable and more people would be willing to engage PvP, including murder hoboing, as something that is intended.

 

[Truesilver]

I am not talking about this thread, I am talking about the history of SDC. InAbsentia has himself posted on this forum stating that anyone in SDC caught in anything other than Open will be kicked from the group. Other members of SDC frequently call Open their Private Group and berate other players for "hiding in Solo/PG." If you haven't seen this, you haven't been around very long.

Tbh for a lot of us PvP-ers this type of thing didn't survive 2.1 RNGineering.

I played Open 100% for so long I saw enemies in my sleep.

When the first Robigo (when you actually had to long range smuggle) dropped, me and my then team, AA, did it in Open from Takurua (so we could still play in Open but avoid the heat at Robigo).

I've managed to hand in exploration data for a CG on the third attempt in Open (i.e., instead of mode-switching I got past a wing of guys who were calling me out by name). Details absolutely on request.

But when 2.1 dropped half of my friends left the game and I stayed in but switched to Solo for all RNGineering. It's not a risk thing (there is never risk, if you know what you're doing) it's a time thing. By RNGineering in Solo I can get the nonsense over about 20% faster than in Open because I can fly a garbage build with the only worthwhile module being the FSD.

So, all I'm saying is, still playing Elite after 2.1 is an achievement in itself. Props to the guys who kept the 100% Open thing going but for many of us, the knife edge to leaving forever was so finely balanced that the fact that I'm here typing this now is kind of (to me) an achievement.

as you requested sir.

Praise Braben!

 

[Jack Schitt]

So you feel players should change their style of play to suit you?

That's a question more suitably directed towards Sandro Sammarco. Some might say it's one he's already answered in the most general terms, but you can keep pushing for more clarification if you feel it's needed at this stage.

 

[4gui4]

It's going to be a great day for customer support.

Player : Hello Frontier, I got banned. Please, why?
Frontier : You killed a player.
Player : You advertise game with PVP.
Frontier : Yes but you have to be nice to people.
Player : I will get refund with my bank.
Frontier : We will close your account.
Player : But I will have my money back

mor like that:

SDC : In what instance you're playing? Let's be friends?
Player : shore, friend request acept
Player : Why SDC destroyed me?
SDC.: .. becouse you are all idiots

https://clips.twitch.tv/MagnificentSavageScallionCorgiDerp

yep [alien]

 

[Gunnet]

So you feel players should change their style of play to suit you? because some players can't "git gud" and equip their ship?

Frontier are evidently beginning to realise that tolerating anti-social behaviour threatens the game itself. I'm not telling you what I feel, I'm trying to explain to you that punishments in any context are first and foremost supposed to serve as a deterrent. Every post raging about ship loss merely confirms that tying it to undesirable behaviour would provide a powerful incentive against continuing that behaviour.

Allow me to reiterate this concept, because it seems to elude many: The intent is not that a player will continue griefing until they lose their ship, but rather that the threat of ship loss will compel them to stop griefing. No player would ever have a ship taken away by the karma system unless they chose to make it happen.