Deliberate Ramming

[nrage]

See its hard, really.

Agreed. Everything worth doing is.

Would my only one player kill in my career when I was undermining the Empire be bad karma?

Edit: Perhaps, but given it was your only player kill your karma drop would be negligible and there would be no repercussions for it. By it's nature a system which tracks events over time can react to a pattern of events, instead of a single event. It can detect things which are visible as a pattern, but not clear in individual events.

The other player was ALD, an enemy, in his/her own system. He had a bad luck on stumbling on our UM combat wing. And he was killed because of powerplay reasons. But since he was escaping after the interdiction I didn't have time for clunky chat, I just killed him. In my proposed system, I would get bad rep for that, but my powerplay contact would be able to clear me from that provided I turned in merits (and I have written that in the E open livestream commentary, linked in sig). If there were more of these enemies around we would kill them too. And reap bad rep along the way, which would make returning to the power contact tricker and more challenging. And if we got killed on the way? Sorry Winnetou, all fines to be paid, consequences etc. - as in any good spy/special ops movie - "If they catch you, we will deny that we know you".

So how I "ought" to behave when I had a valid, in-game reason for killing that Empire commander? And maybe even excluding powerplay - why someone being a staunch fed supporter shouid be punished for killing in the Empire (and vice-versa)?

Your reason(s) for attacking that commander seem valid to me. Any Karma system would, necessarily, need to handle situations like that. Of course there are going to be some complicated situations and I would presume (based on my trust in Sando/Frontier to do their best in all respects) that if the Karma system doesn't have sufficient information to act, it simply won't act. The first implementation might only track the easier scenarios (combat logging being a prime example).

In the early drafted system I would be free of consequences (powerplay killing was exempt by Sandro) allowing for a loophole - you cannot grief other commanders... unless they work for different power. That's why artificial solutions like the early draft of that system are more harm than good - as they are biased by design, and only take from the game instead of offering something in return for the limitations.

If the Karma system did prevent valid gameplay then I agree it would "take from the game". That said, if the benefits outweigh the losses then it would still be a NET positive effect for the game as a whole, if perhaps not for those individuals worst affected. And, I agree, a C&P system with more depth would instead "add" to the game. But, we want BOTH of these things. The Karma system issues are simply the more pressing of the two, at this stage, IMO.

 

[Maxmilian Czhilli]

Maybe I was completely on the wrong track here and I don't understand how Karma and C&P are unrelated - to me, Karma is one sub part of a C&P system, or possibly it should be a C&P&R system with the R being "Reward".

Let me try and put it in a way a moderator might understand .

I will be using the analogy of the forum rules. But, I will do so only in general terms without referring to myself or other users. I have read rule 12 and don't want to get into trouble with the mods :

12) Do not contest/discuss a moderation action in public.
Moderator actions aren’t always correct; if you feel that a moderation action was performed against you incorrectly, please see the final post on how to appeal. Openly posting about a moderation action upon you or others on the forums will not be permitted.

In order to enforce standards of discussion and behaviour, the moderation team can issue infractions to users. Severe infractions or accumulating a certain number can incur a suspension of posting privileges, or in extreme cases the removal of the account.

Infarctions are only negative. There is no way that I am aware of (other than successfully contesting the infraction) to reduce the number of infractions.

We also have a reputation system that is completely separate and serves as a kind of status indicator for others to see. We generally only see positive reputation, but moderators can give negative reputation - on this forum I've only seen it done once and I think it was a joke. All the positive reputation in the world will not save you from accumulating infractions and risking suspension.

So that's how I see Karma and C&P. Different systems for different purposes.

I think Karma ought to be kept private for the individual: although, unlike personal infractions on these forums, they should be able to talk about their Karma with others if they choose. Negative Karma ought also to be recoverable from but in a way that cannot be gamed - this is the really tough bit to get right. Keeping Karma private means that players are able to turn themselves around, if the so choose, without being goaded into worsening their Karma. We have to give people the option to learn from mistakes and change.

The danger of mixing Karma with C&P is that it becomes too complex for players to understand. Complexity also opens up the system to being gamed in unforeseen and undesirable ways. The way I see it working, in game lore terms, is that Karma is a reputation system used only by the Pilot's Federation. C&P works galaxy wide and applies to Commanders and NPCs equally.

 

[Truesilver]

Here is a question.

For me personally, combat in ED isn’t very exciting anyway. Basically point and click with some clunky ship systems management.

What is it that you specifically enjoy about PVP in ED?

I really like the process of devising a build and tactic that works with a particular flying style I want to pursue. I like it especially if it's counter-intuitive, runs against a meta or otherwise makes me (ostensibly) the underdog. However, to me the most important thing is that I actually enjoy the flying itself (not just proving a point).

So, for example, in Beta 2.3, noting that plasma is flavour-of-the-month and FdL's are apparently supposed to have massive booster-stacked shields, I instead fielded a shieldless FdL with 5 x pulse lasers, across 20 1v1's.

This allowed me to enjoy flying evasively whilst confounding a few expectations.

Many will already have seen the vid and thread but they're in the spoiler if interested.

Spoiler

[video=youtube_share;reVQ4FXxkxU]https://youtu.be/reVQ4FXxkxU[/video]

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/341107-Truesilver-s-Top-Tips-No-3-Gimballed-Duelling

 

[Bunkerkind Anni]

I'm all about balance! I've never been against PvP and crime based playstyles in any way. If supported in the correct way, it has the potential to add huge depth to the game.

Yes, I agree having modules etc. for other play styles would also be great.

Seems I initially misunderstood that Sandro was purely talking about a karma system here. So whilst the Karma system is one area, I still stand by what I suggested for a true Crime and Punishment system!

imagine the karma system as punishment system for bad kids.
do you tell your kids "beeing a bully is bad and you will get curfew"
and then tell them "but you will also get infinite internet time and free access to the sweets fault"

 

[Javert]

Infraction are only negative. There is no way that I am aware of (other than successfully contesting the infraction) to reduce the number of infractions.

Nice analogy but it is based on the assumption that Karma would only be negative. I'm not sure Sandro or anyone else every said that, and the colloquial meaning of the word Karma implies that it could equally be positive as well as negative. Now if Karma is always an only negative thing in all other video games (and I don't play a lot of other games so I wouldn't know), then I can see why you would assume that.

Now if what we are talking about here is purely a measure of level of criminality (which I would call, "Criminality" instead of Karma) then I guess you have a point. Even then though, an infraction is for an individual criminal action.

Also, losing posting privileges is a punishment, so I'm not sure how we can then say that the two things are entirely unrelated.

In fact if you want to use that analogy I'd more likely say that an individual crime results in punishment (infraction), and Karma would be the running total of all bad things you have done.

To put it another way, what exactly are you expecting people to get bad Karma for other than committing crimes?

 

[VR StarLightPL]

If the Karma system did prevent valid gameplay then I agree it would "take from the game". That said, if the benefits outweigh the losses then it would still be a NET positive effect for the game as a whole, if perhaps not for those individuals worst affected. And, I agree, a C&P system with more depth would instead "add" to the game. But, we want BOTH of these things. The Karma system issues are simply the more pressing of the two, at this stage, IMO.

Like I said, artificial solutions tend to produce lots of edge cases. And you need to account for these cases. And you end up with a bunch of "if's and but's" about what to do, turning it into convoluted and leaky mess of code. Instead, your actions should propel you to either lawful or criminal career. As the majority of advocates tend to focus only on punishing criminals, not offering anything in return, it would take away from the game IMHO. Because the criminal gameplay would become non-existent, perhaps continued by a few die-hards like Besieger who would also eventually get bored with hurdles. And I for one would count that as a loss, not a gain, because like it or not, he is CONTENT in this game.

In essence we could instead turn commander-to-clean-commander-fire off. Why not? No-one would "grief", we would all be happy shooting npcs in open like we do in Mobius. Is it good? I'll leave it up to individual reader to decide.

If instead criminal actions would push a criminal on a fringe of civilised society, to like-minded individuals in anarchies and low-secs, with associated "shady/outlaw" gameplay - why not? But at least make it appealing like in "real life" (look at the lives GTA V "gangsters" live, luxury and all).

And what are those "pressing issues" that make it necessary to force "god hand" approach? In my opinion open is largely demonised on these forums. Granted if you participate in CGs a lot etc. then you're exposed more to (bahaha) non-consensual PvP. But the game gives you tools to avoid any kind of ganking whatsoever - by moving to other mode, by giving you a lawful 15-sec timer on exit and by high-waking from an engagement.

I remember when I was starting I sticked with the tutorials for a few days, perfecting them and my knowledge of ship's controls, then I moved to solo and practised on NPCs and then when I had my trusty viper and felt a bit more comfortable - moved to open. And dying early in the game is peanuts. You have a 1mln cr loan, and a rebuy of early ships is less than 100k (not talking about super-hiper-A-rated stuff, but still). Granted, killing newbs in starter system is a move. But its a move I would fully expect from any multiplayer game. So I don't see these "pressing issues", really. In fact, I started flying more in solo when I got to the endgame big three level. The idea of nerfed payouts combined with 40mln rebuy for the cutter was not appealing, really. It's not that I don't have the rebuys covered, it's because I don't like the idea of being set back X days of gameplay because of nerfed payouts. Which I had described in the E: D livestream post - someone is "risking" only 6400cr bounty, while I'm set back 40mln and possibly n hours of gametime to re-earn the loss. Were that someone's action leading to being flagged and hunted in secure systems, maybe he/she would reconsider. If I had a lawful trader -75% rebuy perk and cargo/mission insurance on the cutter - perhaps I would reconsider too, because it would mean re-earning a mission or two instead of a dozen.

Also on flagging, infamous criminals arrival to the secure system should be flagged in comms - ATTENTION COMMANDERS, INFAMOUS CRIMINAL CPT. JACK SPARROW IS IN SYSTEM. THERE IS A 5mln Cr BOUNTY ON HIS HEAD - DEAD OR ALIVE.
Newbs could use that information to flee to safety, and seasoned PvPers could bounty hunt.

Same with lawful trader wandering to anarchy system - LOOKIE HERE, MATES - THAT TASTY MORSEL CMDR BRABEN HAS VISITED OUR HUMBLE ABODE. LET'S GIVE HIM A PROPER WELCOME, I'M SURE HE IS CARRYING SOMETHING GOOD. ALSO DON CORLEONE'S SON WANTED A WORD WITH HIM, OR HIS HEAD FOR THAT MATTER - 5mln Cr FOR BRINGING THE TROPHY!

That type of Important Target could be highlighted on scanner at almost all times (maybe allowing for some silent-running sneaky gameplay which is a gameplay opportunity in itself) and would draw attention from both other commanders and npcs. This should intimidate the "lesser gankers" from flying in hisec (finally putting that route plotter filter to good use), "lawful traders" from flying in anarchy (finally putting that route planner filter to good use). Then why would they even consider flying there? Well... special missions. Very lucrative endeavours, based on danger level for both of the archetypes.

It's so much more than "make life harder fur griefurz, pls fdev" and could add the oh-so-desired DEPTH to the game. Instead we try to draft a santa-claus approach but with bans instead of coal / whipping twig. This is not a good way, imho.

 

[besieger]

Like I said, artificial solutions tend to produce lots of edge cases. And you need to account for these cases. And you end up with a bunch of "if's and but's" about what to do, turning it into convoluted and leaky mess of code. Instead, your actions should propel you to either lawful or criminal career. As the majority of advocates tend to focus only on punishing criminals, not offering anything in return, it would take away from the game IMHO. Because the criminal gameplay would become non-existent, perhaps continued by a few die-hards like Besieger who would also eventually get bored with hurdles. And I for one would count that as a loss, not a gain, because like it or not, he is CONTENT in this game.

In essence we could instead turn commander-to-clean-commander-fire off. Why not? No-one would "grief", we would all be happy shooting npcs in open like we do in Mobius. Is it good? I'll leave it up to individual reader to decide.

If instead criminal actions would push a criminal on a fringe of civilised society, to like-minded individuals in anarchies and low-secs, with associated "shady/outlaw" gameplay - why not? But at least make it appealing like in "real life" (look at the lives GTA V "gangsters" live, luxury and all).

And what are those "pressing issues" that make it necessary to force "god hand" approach? In my opinion open is largely demonised on these forums. Granted if you participate in CGs a lot etc. then you're exposed more to (bahaha) non-consensual PvP. But the game gives you tools to avoid any kind of ganking whatsoever - by moving to other mode, by giving you a lawful 15-sec timer on exit and by high-waking from an engagement.

I remember when I was starting I sticked with the tutorials for a few days, perfecting them and my knowledge of ship's controls, then I moved to solo and practised on NPCs and then when I had my trusty viper and felt a bit more comfortable - moved to open. And dying early in the game is peanuts. You have a 1mln cr loan, and a rebuy of early ships is less than 100k (not talking about super-hiper-A-rated stuff, but still). Granted, killing newbs in starter system is a move. But its a move I would fully expect from any multiplayer game. So I don't see these "pressing issues", really. In fact, I started flying more in solo when I got to the endgame big three level. The idea of nerfed payouts combined with 40mln rebuy for the cutter was not appealing, really. It's not that I don't have the rebuys covered, it's because I don't like the idea of being set back X days of gameplay because of nerfed payouts. Which I had described in the E: D livestream post - someone is "risking" only 6400cr bounty, while I'm set back 40mln and possibly n hours of gametime to re-earn the loss. Were that someone's action leading to being flagged and hunted in secure systems, maybe he/she would reconsider. If I had a lawful trader -75% rebuy perk and cargo/mission insurance on the cutter - perhaps I would reconsider too, because it would mean re-earning a mission or two instead of a dozen.

Also on flagging, infamous criminals arrival to the secure system should be flagged in comms - ATTENTION COMMANDERS, INFAMOUS CRIMINAL CPT. JACK SPARROW IS IN SYSTEM. THERE IS A 5mln Cr BOUNTY ON HIS HEAD - DEAD OR ALIVE.
Newbs could use that information to flee to safety, and seasoned PvPers could bounty hunt.

Same with lawful trader wandering to anarchy system - LOOKIE HERE, MATES - THAT TASTY MORSEL CMDR BRABEN HAS VISITED OUR HUMBLE ABODE. LET'S GIVE HIM A PROPER WELCOME, I'M SURE HE IS CARRYING SOMETHING GOOD. ALSO DON CORLEONE'S SON WANTED A WORD WITH HIM, OR HIS HEAD FOR THAT MATTER - 5mln Cr FOR BRINGING THE TROPHY!

That type of Important Target could be highlighted on scanner at almost all times (maybe allowing for some silent-running sneaky gameplay which is a gameplay opportunity in itself) and would draw attention from both other commanders and npcs. This should intimidate the "lesser gankers" from flying in hisec (finally putting that route plotter filter to good use), "lawful traders" from flying in anarchy (finally putting that route planner filter to good use). Then why would they even consider flying there? Well... special missions. Very lucrative endeavours, based on danger level for both of the archetypes.

It's so much more than "make life harder fur griefurz, pls fdev" and could add the oh-so-desired DEPTH to the game. Instead we try to draft a santa-claus approach but with bans instead of coal / whipping twig. This is not a good way, imho.

One of the reasons I murder hobo is to stand out and I want players to see my name and know that they are in danger. I like the idea of a different icon or some alert to say a bad guy is in system.

 

[VR StarLightPL]

imagine the karma system as punishment system for bad kids.
do you tell your kids "beeing a bully is bad and you will get curfew"
and then tell them "but you will also get infinite internet time and free access to the sweets fault"

That's because you approach the issue with a mindset of "evildoers should be punished full stop". What it would lead to is eliminating PvP altogether, because nobody would want to be on the receiving end of the god-hand. And karma by definition is not one-sided:

Nice analogy but it is based on the assumption that Karma would only be negative. I'm not sure Sandro or anyone else every said that, and the colloquial meaning of the word Karma implies that it could equally be positive as well as negative. Now if Karma is always an only negative thing in all other video games (and I don't play a lot of other games so I wouldn't know), then I can see why you would assume that.

Fallout 3 does it nicely. Your actions in the game are counting towards bad or good and you get different set of game behaviour for being a scumbag or a messiah: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/350888-Seeking-Clarification-regarding-Open-and-PvP

 

[Dbrn47]

One question I have, is that so far all (most?) the suggestions seem to focus on punishment. I'm wondering if you are considering any incentives for outlaw players?

Funny, I've said that a couple times but was ignored until you said it. I agree, risk should be balanced with reward and the reward shouldn't just be salt or notoriety as that's not always good enough for everyone. Some of us need something a bit more tangible to even want to engage in PvP at all, let alone be an outlaw.

 

[Bunkerkind Anni]

That's because you approach the issue with a mindset of "evildoers should be punished full stop". What it would lead to is eliminating PvP altogether, because nobody would want to be on the receiving end of the god-hand. And karma by definition is not one-sided:

stop saying it would eliminate pvp - thats hyperbole to the max.
thats the same as "removing exploits will destroy PVE",
or "removing combatlogging will make the game unplayable for casual player"

Fallout 3 does it nicely. Your actions in the game are counting towards bad or good and you get different set of game behaviour for being a -bag or a messiah: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/350888-Seeking-Clarification-regarding-Open-and-PvP

as far as i know, Fallout 3 is not an MMO with a persistant world. what you have there is what - in theory - you have in elite dangerous in form of reputation. if you kill to many ships of the same faction outside of Warzones, you will lose reputation and at one point, ships of that faction will open fire at sight.
but that is i no way existant in player vs player situation,
because all player belong to the SAME faction, called "Pilot federation"

and the proposed "karma" system, is nothing but your reputation in the pilot federation with a (hopefully) more realistic approach...

 

[bitstorm]

To put it another way, what exactly are you expecting people to get bad Karma for other than committing crimes?

Killing explorers in SRVs at the Alien Ruins in anarchy isn't a crime.

Suicidewinder isn't a crime.

Multicrewing into an explorer's ship at Beagle point and blowing all their heatsinks isn't a crime.


Karma, for <stuff> that Frontier/players don't want in the game, and is generally abusing things to be a ****.

C+P system, for <stuff> that Frontier/players do want in the game, criminal careers for example.

 

[Javert]

Killing explorers in SRVs at the Alien Ruins in anarchy isn't a crime.

Suicidewinder isn't a crime.

Multicrewing into an explorer's ship at Beagle point and blowing all their heatsinks isn't a crime.


Karma, for <stuff> that Frontier/players don't want in the game, and is generally abusing things to be a ****.

C+P system, for <stuff> that Frontier/players do want in the game, criminal careers for example.

OK good points and I start to see your distinction.

So, assuming we agree that those things you listed should not be crimes, but they should impact on your karma, I will agree that far, but what I should add is that I think the Karma ratings should also be impacted by crimes, in particular crimes against other players at least. That's why I don't see the two things as entirely separate.

I also think you can't necessarily make that binary distinction - maybe there are things that FD do want people to do in game, but they want habitual offenders to receive bigger consequences than those who only do it occasionally - that's again where I see this karma system coming in.

Under your system, would you then say that anything that's already a crime e.g. killing newbies in the starter systems would not impact on your karma at all? That's where I'm struggling because to me, somehow repeat offenders should be tracked across time, across rebuys, and possibly even across save reset (although that last part would be controversial).

 

[VR StarLightPL]

Funny, I've said that a couple times but was ignored until you said it. I agree, risk should be balanced with reward and the reward shouldn't just be salt or notoriety as that's not always good enough for everyone. Some of us need something a bit more tangible to even want to engage in PvP at all, let alone be an outlaw.

Tell me about it Trying since E Livestream, and here since page 37.

stop saying it would eliminate pvp - thats hyperbole to the max.
thats the same as "removing exploits will destroy PVE",
or "removing combatlogging will make the game unplayable for casual player"

It will - just because the inevitable (based on numbers), unavoidable, and senseless god punishment is demoralising at best. You don't gain from it, you just arbitrary lose with no method of escape. If you throw only salt into that particular gameplay path - only the real die-hards will remain.

as far as i know, Fallout 3 is not an MMO with a persistant world. what you have there is what - in theory - you have in elite dangerous in form of reputation. if you kill to many ships of the same faction outside of Warzones, you will lose reputation and at one point, ships of that faction will open fire at sight.
but that is i no way existant in player vs player situation

It really doesn't matter whether it is or it is not a mmo. It's an example of karma affecting your actions in game. For example for blowing up megaton you get to live in quite luxurious apartment house, whereas as a messiah you get approached by random NPCs and given small gifts... and many other things described in that wiki.

I have outlined many many examples of how that could be tied into Elite universe in my previous posts and in the course of this thread. If you prefer the "lynch the griefurz fdev" approach, we can agree to disagree.

 

[Morbad]

I don't see the problem. If a wanted player chooses to kill a bounty hunter rather than fleeing, that's still just a murder.

That's self-defense.

It's also easy for newer players to not realize their CMDRs have small bounties or to be entrapped into getting minor bounties.

At the same time, it should probably be harder to accidentally pick up a small bounty and be labelled a criminal..

I'm perfectly fine with even grazing a security vessel, or not backing off when they decide to bring down a wanted target themselves, to trigger a lethal response.

However, the pilots Federation should recognize that sometimes illegal actions are correct and justified. If they are going to be tracking behavior relative to their code, it should frequently be different than the countless local codes and spotty quality of enforcement that is in place.

I cannot understand how it can be right for the Cmdr who attempts to escape using his ship to be placed at so significant a disadvantage compared to the Cmdr who attempts to escape using the menu quit.

Because piloting is a rare skill that most of the player base will never care to develop and difficulty is anathema to mass appeal.

.... which could be extended to include the preservation of karma through a CMDR reset.

Which would further muddy the distinction between player and CMDR and in-game and out-of game contexts.

My point isn't to reward "criminal" players...but rather recognize it as a valid play style.

That seems to be precisely the opposite of what's intended.

Not that I really agree with your proposals...criminal activity shouldn't need any incentives beyond the obvious ability to bypass legal hurdles to ones ends, with the downside being punishment, if caught. Of course, this is impossible when crimes are automatically revealed anywhere crime can exists...which is, again, the point. These are not meant to be valid paths, even if a few bits of outdated and false advertisement claim them to be.

How could one be a criminal, without also having a low karma?

With the two being linked, not easily.

Against NPCs - Sandro has talked about the karma system being primarily related to player/player interactions.

Which is more verisimilitude defying hogwash that further prevents Elite's setting from feeling like living, breathing, world and emphasizes the artificiality of it all.

What is it that you specifically enjoy about PVP in ED?

That it's nothing like your experience.

 

[bitstorm]

OK good points and I start to see your distinction.

So, assuming we agree that those things you listed should not be crimes, but they should impact on your karma, I will agree that far, but what I should add is that I think the Karma ratings should also be impacted by crimes, in particular crimes against other players at least. That's why I don't see the two things as entirely separate.

I also think you can't necessarily make that binary distinction - maybe there are things that FD do want people to do in game, but they want habitual offenders to receive bigger consequences than those who only do it occasionally - that's again where I see this karma system coming in.

Under your system, would you then say that anything that's already a crime e.g. killing newbies in the starter systems would not impact on your karma at all? That's where I'm struggling because to me, somehow repeat offenders should be tracked across time, across rebuys, and possibly even across save reset (although that last part would be controversial).

Just to clarify I don't have a system, just theorizing like everyone else!

I think you are right yes there is overlap, it is not cut and dry and I'm not sure trying to separate the two is fully possible.

But I do see them as separate entities, and I worry that losing focus of which one is the main goal and focusing too much on C+P is likely to cause issues. Conflating them risks legitimising griefers or watering down a true C+P system by removing anything that could be positive about choosing the pirate life.

Just to put it out there, I think those who will be at the rough end of a karma system would love to subvert it away from karma into a proper C+P system where they end up actually being rewarded. I mean that would be the agenda right.

And to be honest the whole thread seems to be veering that way as people get caught up in the possibility of brainstorming into the game whatever they can think up, turning it into a major content patch that in the end doesn't actually solve the main issues it was intended for. But I'm all for improving the game, I'd love both a karma and a C+P system, both of which can be evolved.

Whether killing newbies (which is a crime) affects karma? I think this is what's planned yes, and may be fine. I think we just have to be careful how far we push into C+P, because (my understanding is) that's not what it's actually about and so not where the main focus should be.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

This is exactly what I have described in this very thread a few pages ago but the idea isn't new - I've written it after ED Open Livestream. And also I think focusing on "lynch the griefurz pls fdev" will kill pvp. And one less gameplay choice is never good.

There is a huge difference between legitimate, valid PvP and Griefing. Case in point - parking a couple ships inside a space station, keeping them alive with healing beams, despite being blasted repeatedly by station defenses, just to shoot people in the back as they're launching is not valid gameplay in any way. It's clear by the magnitude of station defense systems that such an activity is certainly "not as intended", regardless of means used to circumvent it. Nor is a salvo of packhounds through the mail slot with no regard for who gets hit - this is akin to strapping a bomb to yourself and blowing yourself up on a bus because there might be an "enemy" in there. It is, at best, a coward's tactic, one employed by a very undesirable portion of a particular type of people the absence of would make the world a better place.

Who gets to define "unacceptable"? You? Forum poll? Design committee? Besieger? I am proposing an unbiased system allowing you to blaze your own trail, this time meaningfully with long term effects.

I liken this to "who gets to sign the Geneva Convention"? Ultimately what is deemed "acceptable" or "unacceptable" falls on the development team and Frontier, as it ultimately IS THEIR game, so it's their call.

And why should that behaviour be specially penalised? Or rather, wouldn't it be better if that behaviour was leading down a criminal career path which would both entail the consequences but also advantages of being an outlaw. Last I checked criminals mainly do it for money and power and lead quite a rich lives constantly playing cat & mouse with the law.

We do not disagree here. More on this later.

Karma system is something which allows you to track users behaviour over a longer period of time. It can be easily used for both. What the majority of "lynch the griefurz fdev pls" advocates fail to see is that "killing newbies in Eravate" IS a valid gameplay choice.

Valid, in the sense that yes, it is something you CAN do. But:

1. Where's the challenge? Blowing up someone who can barely get off a landing pad? Beating up preschool kids? This sort of thing speaks volumes for the person engaging in such behavior, and such people should be branded for the good of society.

2. If your first 30 seconds of experience are "take off, get blown up, rebuy" what sort of impression does that make? Where's the incentive to rebuy after the 3rd or 4th time? Why stay in a mode where this happens? Instead, it only encourages a mass exodus to Private Groups and Solo play - not that there's anything wrong with either of these modes - unless you're that person driving people away because then you've nothing to do when there's no one to blow up. It just creates a bad experience all the way around, and that leads to less play, which leads to fewer players.

What is wrong is that your actions (good or bad) CURRENTLY have no consequences. And I want it to have both upsides and downsides, and most of all MEANING. I've written this many times in this thread, any system that is designed here should be UNBIASED. I don't care if you feel its "bad" killing newbies. Some can do it because the game allows them to do it, full stop. Now what I would like to see is both consequences you propose - hi sec being more and more "dangerous" to travel in as an example, refusing docking permission... But also criminal perks, access to shady activities, murder contracts, what have you. And on the other lawful side - reduced rebuys, lucrative missions, sysauth protection etc.

As mentioned above, we do agree on this aspect. More to follow.

As Fracktal noted a few pages ago, we would need to track two things actually:
* behaviour (as in roleplay/career path tracking)
* exploit tracking (combat logging, grief-winding, breaking the TOS in general)

I am vehemently against a biased system which is a crutch for not having a valid career path with all its roses and accompanying thorns. Why should I play the "good way"? What is "good way"? Also why it is limited only to commanders and not in-universe (so tracks npc killers as well)?

The system outlined by Sandro is a "behave or you will be slapped by god-hand" not bringing anything in return. It only takes away a VALID gameplay choice. So even LESS depth and things to do in the game. No thank you.

Don't forget the symmetrical career for lawful cmdr. With its own advantages and disadvantages. Also, symetrical but not identical - the perks would have to be different to make both styles interesting and not just a differently labelled c&p (copy and paste ) of the same thing.

Yeah, that's what I am trying to bring to discussion since page 37, but given the pace and nature of the thread the posts get buried under tons of replies for early-page posts... Links in my sig.

As for perks and hindrances, they should be lore-friendly and make sense... Infamous Criminals hunted mercilessly in better Security systems, traders fearing Anarchies and Low-secs. Tip offs for criminals for tasty treats (a transport of palladium will be crossing from X to Y around HH:mm gametime"), perhaps better assassination missions (a certain cmdr Salami will be travelling from 46 Eridani to the bubble, 5mln Cr for her head). And for the lawful, trusty citizen - discounts for market goods, lucrative missions with huge payouts, reduced rebuys...

Also worth mentioning is minor faction rep wrt to current criminal/lawful status, for example minor faction allied with criminal will let him "sneak in if you avoid scan, if you're scanned we don't know you and will shoot you". Allied minor faction could offer special missions for lawful citizen, maybe high value important chained missions? Or make a discount on goods? Or disclose a location of known criminal with huge bounty?

I also like Truesilver's idea of using current superpower rep for the task. For example why should Empire care if I spend my time murdering Federation CMDRs in Federation systems? Bounties and crimes should have superpower jurisdictions, IDK what to do with "uncontrolled/not aligned" systems but that is an implementation detail.

Isn't that better than a "hand of god" approach?

There often arises some confusion with differentiating "Criminal" from "Psychopath".

"Criminal", as a career choice, is perfectly valid, and would include Smugglers, Data Thieves, Landing Pad Loiterers, Station Trespassers, Pirates who only steal, not kill, and the like.

"Psychopath", while certainly achievable within the mechanics of the game, well... there is that whole "live by the sword" thing - and no, it really doesn't matter who's sword they die by - PC, NPC, Deity.

So here's a rehash of a much longer post I made quite some time ago, in a condensed format:

Crime and Punishment: The current Justice System of Elite is quite basic. For all non-violent offenses, fines are assessed. It most cases they are laughable at best. Loiter around a landing pad, you get an inconvenience fine. Loiter longer, you die. Dump your biowaste in the mail slot, take a small fine with you. Get caught with a hold full of Slaves, have a larger fine and carry on. There is a lot of room for improvement here. If you're caught with a load of contraband coming in to a station, that contraband should, at least, be confiscated when you dock, not left in your hold to be sold anyways, often offsetting the cost of the fine, or still yielding profit. This is just silly.

For violent offenses, there is but a single punishment, and that's death - either at the hands of another player, or at the hands of NPC's. But death also wipes the slate, and you're free to go about whatever you were doing - which usually entails things like blowing up 10 minute old commanders while they're trying to figure out where the mail slot even is.

There certainly is a place for the "Criminal" career path - and I've long advocated for certain "benefits" to it - such as better selling prices on Black Markets, Access to Criminal Network facilities that are otherwise "locked" in the same kind of manner that Engineer facilities are "locked", until you are invited. Special "pop-up" missions specific to Criminals, but also a certain reaction to Criminal elements in "civilized" space. And something that may be necessary to really make this sort of implementation really work would be an additional status: "Known".

"Known" could be affixed to someone's current status standing, so they might show as "Known: Clean" or "Known: Wanted". Being prefixed as "Known" only means that you have an established pattern of committing Criminal activities. Unlike "Clean" or "Wanted", "Known" would not simply drop off at death. It would have to clear over time. Carrying "Known" status should have only the effect of:

1. In Uncontrolled or Anarchy space: No particular effect.
2. In Space controlled by a Super Power:
2a. If unaligned to any power, increased security response to crimes reported against anyone with "Known" status.
2b. Docking requests denied if "Known" and "Wanted". Civilized People do not welcome criminals into their midst.
2c. If aligned with a Power:
2c1. Docking requests denied by Opposing powers
2c2. Docking requests accepted by Aligned powers, but only if not "Known" and "Wanted".
3. No affect on Criminally aligned facilities - may result in Docking requests denied if not "Known". Criminals don't just let anybody in, they might be cops.

"Known" status would have a natural decay cycle much like Bounties, but is not cleared on death (or Temporary Inconvenience, as "death" doesn't actually happen in Elite, only the passage of time and refraining from Criminal activity would cause this status to decay.

 

[Maxmilian Czhilli]

Nice analogy but it is based on the assumption that Karma would only be negative. I'm not sure Sandro or anyone else every said that, and the colloquial meaning of the word Karma implies that it could equally be positive as well as negative. Now if Karma is always an only negative thing in all other video games (and I don't play a lot of other games so I wouldn't know), then I can see why you would assume that.

The reason I'm discussing Karma only in negative terms is because that is how Sandro has been describing it. He has been talking about a system to discourage undesired behaviour. We have plenty of positive and desired behaviour already in the game and I don't think we need to have extra nudges in that direction: the Fuel Rats don't need gold stars next to their name to encourage them to do what they do.

I know plenty of others have tried suggesting positive Karma but I've yet to see good suggestions of how that could be earned and prevent the system being gamed by those who wish to continue their current naughty play-styles unaffected.

Also, losing posting privileges is a punishment, so I'm not sure how we can then say that the two things are entirely unrelated.

In fact if you want to use that analogy I'd more likely say that an individual crime results in punishment (infraction), and Karma would be the running total of all bad things you have done.

Because terms like "reputation" and "punishment" have different meanings on the forum and in game we are at risk of confusion.

On this forum "reputation" is a public status signifier, although it has no affect on your actions in the forum other than your rep power. The public status signifiers we have in game, that are of most interest to other players, are wanted status and combat rank. In game "reputation" is something that only the NPC faction members really care about.

In forum terms "punishment" would be loosing posting privileges. In game "punishment" currently only means fines or getting a tiny bounty that might cause NPCs and, very occasionally, players to shoot at you.

So what do we call what happens to you when your Karma hits a trigger point? Perhaps we should call them "Consequences" to avoid confusion with the current game punishments.

An infraction on the forum is not a punishment. It's just a naughty point. Get too many and you can be punished by not being allowed to post. Similarly a negative Karma point does not immediately mean you face Consequences, but get too many and they will start to happen. It's also important to note that the system described by Sandro is far more granular than the forum system with numerous graded trigger points causing escalating Consequences.

Like all analogies it has it's limits and shouldn't be pushed to far. The key point of the analogy was to show that they are unrelated systems with different purposes, even though they seem to share some language and structural similarities.

As I understand Sandro's thinking: Karma is intended to shape player interactions so that "toxic" behaviour is less prevalent. C&P is designed for creating gameplay involving criminality that covers criminals, law abiders, Commanders and NPCs.

To put it another way, what exactly are you expecting people to get bad Karma for other than committing crimes?

Sandro was involved in discussions about Karma being used for combat logging. Also there are cases such as station ramming games where the C&P system is ineffective but a Karma system that looks at trends might be applicable.

He also seems to have been talking about Karma only applying to player interactions. There may be some edge cases that come up involving exploits but criminality against NPCs should be unaffected by a Karma system.

And I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here but: Karma, as described by Sandro is longitudinal, trend based system for detecting the worst repeat offenders. It should be perfectly possible to play with low/moderate levels of negative Karma without ever having Consequences imposed on you.

I am seeing lots of ill-informed overreaction on here (not from you Javert!) suggesting that should you ever get into a fight with another player that the hammer of doom will descend and destroy all that you love. PvP is a core feature of the game. If anything a well designed Karma system should encourage more players to get involved in PvP by nudging players towards fairer fights and giving newbie PVPers encouragement that they can actually win.

 

[VR StarLightPL]

NOTE: Generalised "you" used throughout the post.

Killing explorers in SRVs at the Alien Ruins in anarchy isn't a crime.

Suicidewinder isn't a crime.

Multicrewing into an explorer's ship at Beagle point and blowing all their heatsinks isn't a crime.

Karma, for <stuff> that Frontier/players don't want in the game, and is generally abusing things to be a ****.

C+P system, for <stuff> that Frontier/players do want in the game, criminal careers for example.

Those are valid points, similar to my post exchange with Fracktal a few pages ago. But with one difference. I think a clean PKill (without wanted or powerplay status) is criminal regardless of if system security can see it or not or there is system security at all. In fact the only one non-criminal clean PKill would be both sides agreeing to fight to death, which could be handwaved like it is done currently - by a switch in the right panel ("record crimes off" instead of "report" ;-) ). We could of course place "cqc fighting arenas" ;-) in game but have you ever been to one? I didn't stumble upon any and don't feel the need to rummage through external sources to find them (but that's another story). But that would provide a large inconvenience to (again, valid) gameplay. I don't know if anarchy should retain its "lawless" status and killing there would be OK not counting to your criminal rank, but am open to suggestions why it should.

As for the grief-winder, combat logging and trolling the explorers these are exploits and yes, could be tracked and corrective actions taken against repetitive offenders. How would these actions look I haven't the slightest idea, but to imagine something lore friendly - a scolding message from pilot's federation with a tangible disadvantage of some sorts, for example locking down the frameshift drive for some time (they respect galaxy-wide permit locks after all) or some similar "trolling" of the troll. But as these border on TOS breakage I don't have a better lore-friendly idea of how to approach that for the moment. At best these should be passed to a human to review in the case of repetitive offenders, but without stats data on how often this is IDK if that is even possible.

That's self-defense.

It's also easy for newer players to not realize their CMDRs have small bounties or to be entrapped into getting minor bounties.
(snip)
However, the pilots Federation should recognize that sometimes illegal actions are correct and justified. If they are going to be tracking behavior relative to their code, it should frequently be different than the countless local codes and spotty quality of enforcement that is in place.

You get wanted status on the right panel, perhaps an audio warning would also be in order. Other than that, I also think that the bounty system is a bit binary. "Loitering is a crime, punishable by death". Hmmm... And to self defence - would you shot cops chasing you for a traffic offence "in self defence"? They are trying to push you off the road after all and its dangerous ;-). And, you can always flee / h-jump if you graze someone's shield or are hunted by bounty hunter when you're being wanted. A court wouldn't be lenient if you killed cops "in self defence" as you say

Which would further muddy the distinction between player and CMDR and in-game and out-of game contexts.

I agree. Clear save should reset karma. And while a person can get up to speed with credits especially with help of others, it has to re-earn the ranks for the ships or unlock engineers again. I think nobody can take that grind repeatedly and not move on

That seems to be precisely the opposite of what's intended.

Not that I really agree with your proposals...criminal activity shouldn't need any incentives beyond the obvious ability to bypass legal hurdles to ones ends, with the downside being punishment, if caught.

Sadly, what was proposed early on is vastly different to career paths, therefore we're trying to bring a much more interesting alternative with meaningful gameplay into discussion. But I disagree on "no more incentive" - like brought earlier, crime lords lead a rather luxurious lives until caught. So there *should be* shady perks for criminals, someone proposed a Criminal Underground as an evil twin of Pilots Federation. And that's simply because there is nothing in the current game system that would give you an advantage bypassing legal hurdles.

Which is more verisimilitude defying hogwash that further prevents Elite's setting from feeling like living, breathing, world and emphasizes the artificiality of it all.

Agreed.

and difficulty is anathema to mass appeal.

<joke>Dark Souls series would like to have a word with you </joke>

 

[Robert Maynard]

Which is more verisimilitude defying hogwash that further prevents Elite's setting from feeling like living, breathing, world and emphasizes the artificiality of it all.

A notorious CMDR being able to instantly cleanse their record by Suicidewinder and parting with a paltry credit sum also detracts from it - it lacks persistence.

Break the rules of the club, face the consequences of being a member, the club being the Pilots' Federation, of which every player (and only players) is a member.

 

[Jim Falcon]

this is too much for me to catch up, so I'll give my opinion/idea on karma and punishment in general.

Karma in general sounds great, it would be nice if it effect also the instancing so high karma get grouped with high karma and ppl who play by there own rules with others who play this way. But there is a wanted dirty play (piracy). So in low security systems it should be possible to steal stuff without losing karma (or even gain some if you manage to get cargo without killing). On the other hand when you interdict the same person too often (griefing) then the police will tell you "we have an eye on you" and you have to leave the system to avoid karma hits. Finally in anarchy system (and private groups) karma should be disabled, you can do whatever you want, PvP with friends or play with bad internet without worrying to get punished. Also this would make anarchy system a bit more scary.

The bigger problem is punishment in general. Murder should be a bad thing even in low security. And a way to enforce it would be to make sure the aggressor pay for the rebuy (maybe even all losses like cargo and missions). If he don't want or can then a percentage will be taken from the earnings. It can go even further maybe you don't have to pay the rebuy when you are killed in a high sec system.

And to the topic. The slower ship is always right and below 100 there is no "murder". But the area could be a bit smaller and focus more on the mail slot.